Multiple Vectrix

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israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Yes, that is why I posted, I am having trouble guessing what it means as I don't speak Catalan.

I checked your referenced Vectrixscene site again, I have been complaining thru this whole thread that that site has a broken connection to Box.net where the files are stored. Now that server is completely offline. Has been for a few days.

Lastly I took your suggestion and read thru the entire Dead Runke thread. Sadly there is not a mention of the location of a set of HEX files to update my new bike. There is a lot of talk about repairing a Runke, unfortunately mine is an ESD. Prensel does mention that he purchased an ESD charger from VectrixParts.com but when I look there I only seen Runke, and they are VERY expensive, I first need to know that the rest of the bike works before I put out that kind of dollars. Would be nice if I just need a fuse holder to fix the ESD charger, the way the Runke was fixed in that thread.

-Randy

EDIT: Thanks to zeuz for sending me the links to various alphabet sites to translate the verification code, I finally got passed verification.

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

When it rains it pours. I got 3 people looking to send me the files. So thanks to Juergen and Alan, and David, though David really only had the no beep horn software. The Laird said to wait for their public release that is nigh.

Alan your excellent attached documents helped me figure out what I was looking at and it all programmed like it should. I am about to take a bike ride. I already know it's gonna be better as after I installed the motor controller software and power cycled the bike I finally had a display not showing 17 bars. The batts may be good as I put 20 miles on it yesterday and it shows 14 bars still. I'll go hit the freeway and see what happens.

I also updated the bad charger that came with the new bike. It was running REV 2012 and it now has REV 3001, like it should, but when I plug it into power it shows Not Charging, but no useful info in ScooterDiags.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

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Re: Multiple Vectrix

I also have a spare...
I've just sold my GBS lithium battery with miniBMS, to make room for the leaf cells. My primary Vectrix is now soulless, that spare unit will be very handy!

Glad you obtained the firms you need. About he "site" I know the catalan chapta is tricky, but it is perfect to avoid spam robots. If you want I can ask the webmaster to manually add your user.

zeuz
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

I've just sold my GBS lithium battery with miniBMS, to make room for the leaf cells.

May I ask you where one can find and buy Leaf cells in the EU ?

About he "site" I know the catalan chapta is tricky, but it is perfect to avoid spam robots. If you want I can ask the webmaster to manually add your user.

He managed to pass the catalan captcha and successfully register. ;)

Sacko
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

May I ask you where one can find and buy Leaf cells in the EU ?

How many are you looking for?

Where abouts are you in the EU?

zeuz
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Re: Multiple Vectrix
May I ask you where one can find and buy Leaf cells in the EU ?

How many are you looking for?

Where abouts are you in the EU?

Fortunately, I don't need right now Leaf cells.
But for a future upgrade, I would like to know at priori where one could buy and how much it would cost.

I'm located at Portugal.

prensel
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Theres just a damaged Leaf sold in Northern Ireland so I guess some leaf cells might popup pretty soon on the forums, check diyelectricar, ES and alike.

===================================
My contribution to EV in The Netherlands
- Vectrix VX-1 NiMh my2007 #307
- Vectrix VX-1 NiMh my2008 #2327 converted to 36S30P Li-Ion
- Vectrix VX-1 NiMh my2011 #3243
- Vectrix VX-1 Li my2011 #3228
- CityEl FactFou

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

And I am still looking for a cheap, spelled with a capital "cheap", ESD charger for my new Vectrix. I am looking every day, but if any of you come across one. The last one I saw was in Paris on eBay.fr, but shipping killed it.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

BLUESTREAK
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

HI RANDY,how much is cheep? I have one in my spare parts bike and it works fine. if I could get enough for my ESD charger I might buy the "ELCON" charger and no more worries about these bad vectrix products.COOPER.

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

I would jump at $300 for a working charger

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

OK, got a working??? charger for $188 and hooked it up. It is a Runke and I had an ESD. So Looks like I will be able to charge my bike unfortunately the bike is full and the charger is primed for an empty bike. When I plug it in the bike shows 3 bars and starts to charge, but when I unplug the bike and turn it on it shows 15 bars. So at least I need to run the battery down so any over-charge won't damage the battery.

The problem is the only time I have been able to plug it in was when I hung it upside down from a twist tie. If I go to mount it correctly (well first of all the bolts are TOO LONG), I get cables at the bottom and connectors at the top. If I try to flip the unit I cannot get it past the instrument panel. Am I mounting this wrong?

IMG_0010.JPG

Anyone got photos of a mounted Runke charger?

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

Kocho
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Sorry, this is the only photo I have from the Runke mounted in my bike (replaced the original ESD). The view is directly from the front of the bike, headlight removed. You can see the rear of the charger with some of the aluminum heat sink and the fan. You can also see the fat cable conduit at the foreground, I think it is the one with the control plug (the plug is not visible here). You will need to reroute that plug through the shortest path. Use these as markers to see how my charger is oriented. I think you got your charger oriented OK.

The plug my finger is pointing to in the foreground is for the main headlight bulb and is attached there with zip ties for my LED light conversion.

Bolts - get shorter ones. Home Depot and auto stores should have metric sizes. Bring one bolt with you to measure on site and get the same thread pitch and diameter, but shorter.

As for the fuel gauge, it should show the same number of bars while charging as it does while riding/on. If yours jumps about, you probably have mismatched software versions b/w the Runke and the MC. Do *not* go by the number of bars, go by the actual battery voltage. Unless your gauge is synked to be at 0 bars the beginning of a charge from near empty SoC on the battery, and you have specified the correct Ah capacity of the battery via ScooterDiag, your gauge will not be accurate. It might show full where you are almost empty! The charger will not consider your gauge when charging - it checks the voltage, time, temperature, Ah pumped in the battery since last charge, but not the gauge level, as far as I know. If you have not programmed the Runke and have matching MC software, do that first - the MC software that matches then Runke is not the same as the one for the ESD, as far as I remember.

You can set the battery capacity and the gauge via ScooterDiag. Lookup old posts on this - it's not as straightforward as typing a number or percentage: you type a sequence of hex numbers and "send" them to memory addresses. So don't try it unless absolutely sure you understand it - you can overwrite the wrong memory easily if you mess-up. Just ignore the gauge for now and make sure you got matching MC and charger firmware.

tn_WP_20150601_09_58_16_Pro.jpg

JimmyB
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Randy does this help?

as seen in this eBay auction

Archi13
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Hello Israndy, Yes you must put the charger like this with the connector on the top, and yes you must change The MC software to have the right combination, Charger and MC sofware. I have a Runke after an ESD charger like you and I can send you my program for the runke if you have the same runke charger without BMS, because for the Runke with BMs the program is not the same.

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Yes you must put the charger like this with the connector on the top, and yes you must change The MC software to have the right combination, Charger and MC sofware.

How did you get the cables to reach? Did you use any offsets when mounting the box? I am getting the message Hi/Lo when I plug in to charge so I assume that I have the one with the BMS. Firmware version R8010-42. I hope it goes with the Rev. 7-68 and Rev 1008 that I have on the bike now.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

OK, Someone doesn't want me to get the new bike working. Both my bikes have the same ESD charger, so when the opportunity came up to buy a Runke, how different could it be? Turns out the cables don't reach and the software is not the correct one for my bike, it's for a lithium. The original bike never came with a Runke so there is no software for it from Vectrix and that David guy wants $80 for his software that he says will work, but what will he do if it doesn't?

So I ordered an ESD charger, another $150 bucks into this redundant bike. Guess what? There are different KINDS of ESD chargers, and on this one *The cables don't reach*

IMG_0047.jpg

Runke - New ESD charger - Original ESD charger

IMG_0049.jpg

Plugs on top including control - Plugs on bottom back and facing upward - Normal where you can unhook the plugs w/o disassembly of the bike

The wires were included, but the ones already on my bike don't even work with this charger, so I cannot even see if the charger is working without disassembly to the battery and replace the cables, and in the future I would not have the ability to connect my bikes together by just unhooking the cables from underneath the way I have so far.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

Kocho
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Bummer...

If anyone has the correct firmware for your Runke charger, it would be David. And he knows his stuff. You can try getting it for free as suggested elsewhere and risk messing things-up if the versions don't match the hardware (Runkes have several hardware revisions, and I hear the software for each might be different). I'm confident that David will stand behind his work and support you, that much I can tell you, based on my own experience dealing with him. You knew those Runkes off eBay would likely need to be reprogrammed and/or your MC would need to be reprogrammed too, so no surprises there.

As for the cables not reaching, that's unfortunate. Is there no way to reroute them by undoing some of the factory zip ties (like I did when swapping my old ESD for a Runke that looks like yours)? My bike is an '09, came with an ESD originally installed on it, and it looked exactly like the setup with the ESD on my previous '07 bike. I think your next best bet would be to extend or replace the existing power cables on your bike with longer ones. Or reposition the plugs on the chargers. The controller cable can be extended too. You'd need a crimping tool and/or soldering gun, some length of appropriate gauge and quality wire, and some heatshrink. Yup, some work is involved, unfortunately, but fairly cheap and doable to extend the cables by a DIY handyman...

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Bummer...

As for the cables not reaching, that's unfortunate. You'd need a crimping tool and/or soldering gun, some length of appropriate gauge and quality wire, and some heatshrink. Yup, some work is involved, unfortunately, but fairly cheap and doable to extend the cables by a DIY handyman...

Or just find the correct charger. Perhaps now that I have two ESDs I just need to get the working guts into the correct size charger...

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

OK, I finally took the working charger and moved the connections from the broken charger to it so I don't have to move the cables on the bike. I am crazy, this was SO MUCH harder than just cutting a few zip ties. First I had to open the power supplies, took me a couple of weekends just to get that completed.

https://youtu.be/sQirRZ5NFR4

The one charger had the connections mounted on this cover plate, so I just moved the one without the connections from the dead charger. Had to unsolder the connectors and re-solder on the working one.

IMG_0858.jpg
IMG_0864.jpg
IMG_0872.jpg

Quite a bear as the whole box is a heat sink and my soldering iron is for much more delicate work. But I think I did a good job. Had to clean the edge with a razor to get the surface ready for caulking it back down.

IMG_0865.jpg

Discovered this during the inspection:

IMG_0870.jpg

Got too crazy with the utility knife when cutting the box open. I put a dob of solder on it to hold the wire together. I used a sliver adhesive caulk and screwed the top back down and waited until this morning to put it back together. Sadly I lost my beloved 17" MacBook Pro since this all started. Apple replaced it with a 15" Retina when they couldn't repair it after 4 tries. Thanks to Apple, it's a $3800 computer they gave me in exchange for the 17". But I didn't have a way to backup the PC side. I spent the night putting the Vectrix software on my wife's PC as I cannot figure out how to get Windows 10 to put on my Mac. I heard it's free, but where?

Really appreciate that Vectrix Parts has put up service.vectrixparts.com, it's one stop shopping for getting the manuals and software you need to run the bike. Much better than when this tread started and everyone had different copies of files they shared. The lights on the dash were flashing so I had to downgrade the ESD to be compatible with the bike. I now have the same software on both my bikes, and the new one is outside charging. Cannot wait to go for a ride tomorrow.

So what did I spend? $500 at auction, then if I didn't have a motorcycle lift on my RV I would have had to have it towed to my house. Then the $179 CanBus adapter that everyone said I need, but I had gotten by for 6 years without it. BTW, that's the same thing everyone on the Honda Insight group has been saying about getting a Grid Charger, which I broke down and got this weekend. Finally I have my battery back. Wonder if I can use it on the Vectrix bikes. Then came the $189 Runke charger from that guy on eBay that had a lot of them. When I realized I wanted the bike to be more original I got the $151 ESD charger (plus shipping?). Plus all your help. Not that I am sure I have a working bike, but it's certainly better than it was, and I have LEARNED a LOT. If anyone wants the Runke, it's still for sale.

Thanks for all the fun guys (and girls?), so happy we can do this as a community as there is no longer any company supporting us.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

BLUESTREAK
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Geat work RANDY you have done a lot a have been patient with you self and it has paid off,a lot of people would haven given up a long time ago.

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Been a bit El Niño-ee recently so I have not gotten a lot of riding in since I fixed the charger. First ride was to red light, expected, as they were meeting for the first time. Then I rode to work and ALMOST made it home before another red light. I was able to constantly get to work and home w/o that on my other bike. Then to work and back no problem, then rain for weeks. This week no problem getting home, well, I cheated as it showed slowness so I ducked onto surface streets, got home with 4 bars. Then red light again! Then got home last night w/o issue with 2 bars. Then this morning got a red light on the way into work.

Fortunately it was on the way down the exit ramp, so I coasted. Then I lightly accelerated toward work, but I started hearing popping under the seat. Then I started smelling burning electronics. So I lept off and pushed it into work. Just a few blocks. Not sure what is next. It has no red light now that I am at lunch, but this evening should be interesting. Anyone know what blew?

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

Kocho
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Most likely, what happened to you is what happened to me, which lead me to upgrade to Li :-(

Sounds like blown cells, at least one. You should not have ridden it to red light. Don't do it. Ever. I think several people told you not to go down to red light. Or maybe it was to someone else... Regardless, now you have at least one if not more cells that are shorted. So if you attempt to recharge, the rest will be overcharged and likely damaged as well. Yu have to repair the pack, no other option.

Here's my version of the "pop":
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13856-low-voltage-and-pop-sound

EDIT: Don't feel too personally responsible for the battery failure. Most likely would have happened even if you did not ride it to the red light repeatedly (although I think it might have helped accelerate the process). With 102 cells in series, if one or two are lower capacity, they will inevitably be drained and even reverse-charged by the rest of the pack if one accelerates hard on a nearly empty pack. And with the orignal NiMh cell quality at this point in time (old, mismatched), it is almost guaranteed a few will go bad sooner rather than later...

R
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Sounds like blown cells, at least one. You should not have ridden it to red light. Don't do it. Ever. I think several people told you not to go down to red light.

I agree, some cells may gave up under such terrible stress.
Its the Niquel trap: if you don't discharge to red light, you get memory effect. If you ride to red, cells with lowest capacity discharge to 0V getting damage, getting very hot. And when charging, these same damaged cells will fill sooner that the rest, getting overcharged, getting hot again. And if the were of same capacity, the rest of cells would get overcharge:
bateria vectrix malmesa.jpg
In summary: Without any BMS, the old NIMH batteries are doomed, a NIMH vectrix is of little use . I suggest you upgrade to good lithium.

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

That is kind of why I got the 2nd Vectrix. Everyone was doing the upgrade but I love my bike so much I didn't want it to be down while I did the upgrade. I work kind of slow as you all have seen. But lots of lithium bikes seem to have no BMS either.

I am curious what to do with batteries that are out of sync, if you don't ride to the red light you don't get the purposeful overcharge so you still have cells that have not fully charged. So the ones that are fully charged still have charge when the ones that never were charged up run down. So if I do a red light recharge then the fully charged batteries will generate heat while the not fully charged batteries will come up to full charge. Then after a few red light recharges all the batteries should be on the same page.

I know riding AFTER the red light comes on is horrible, but I was very sure to be super close to home before hitting the red light. Usually a few blocks, and I mostly coasted home or VERY slowly crawled. This seems like the perfect conditions for a purposeful over charge. Any less distance and it would just do a charge of what was taken out + a little for self discharge, any further distance and it might reverse charge the most dead cells. But if I can top balance the cells that were an unknown number of years out of balance I hoped to make it all better.

Also, the issue with the popping sounds from under the seat and the burnt electronics smell, seems to be more an issue with the motor controller than the batteries themselves. But I will know that when the rain stops and I can take the bike apart and look.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

israndy
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Re: Grid Charging

Well, haven't fixed the popping sound. Haven't even been on the bike since that day.

So what happens to a Vectrix when you don't touch it for a year-ish? Battery dies and you cannot charge it.

Last time I went thru this I had another bike that I could jump to this bike. But I have since moved that bike to the other house. Not going to bring it back just to charge the battery in this bike. Well, I also have a Honda hybrid.

The batteries in them can get out of sync and people have created these Grid Chargers that can be hooked up and slowly top up the pack. It needs a SLOW battery charger. I often leave it for 48 hours on the Honda. It has a gauge that shows the voltage the battery is up to. What's the worst that could happen if I hook it to the Vectrix?

IMG_2771.JPG

IMG_2772.JPG

IMG_2777.JPG

It started showing 2.1 volts, the pic above shows it at 16.7 volts. Took almost a day but it finally got over 100 volts. Powers on but it shows no bars. Plugged in the built-in charger and it started charging. Yay! Now I need to be sure to keep it charged until I get the motor controller working again.

A Grid Charger is just 3 LED power supplies in series, super low amps but it puts out DC like 90 volts each. Tied together it's able to do 270 volts but it never gets that high. The Insight only ever got to 175 after however long I leave it on. Likely I could have done the same on the Vectrix, but it I could have

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

Vicens
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Ni-mh batteries charged to 100% are discharged at 0% in 50 days. Other models of ni-mh batteries are discharged in years.
Lithium batteries charged to 50-70% are discharged in years.

In practice all the batteries of electric vehicles are discharged by the electronics. The electronics consumes energy. Charge the batteries of any electric vehicle every month when you do not use it. So the battery will always be ready. Lithium batteries can be damaged if they are excessively discharged.

israndy
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

Good advice, thanks. So the monsoon that California has been experiencing finally died down and so I took off the cover to see what damage I did to the bike that fateful day a year ago. After charging it I took it for a drive. Looks like nothing is wrong. So perhaps what you guys were saying about the cells just being too damaged is correct, although I had been to work many times before that day, so instead of getting to work and to lunch and back and then home later the batteries gave up before I got to work. Strange.

I now don't trust them so I will have to do some weekend jaunts to get my confidence back, or maybe just take the pack apart but I would need a battery analyzer to find the bad cells... Nuts! Or just get on with lithium. waiting for a cheap opportunity.

-Randy

Also a new 2018 Tesla Model 3, a 2013 Volvo C70 hardtop convertible, and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

LeftieBiker
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Re: Multiple Vectrix

My VX-1, with Leaf cells and no BMS, didn't seem to lose any charge this Winter. Most likely it did, but less than one bar's worth.

Skeaton
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Re: Reviving the Battery Voltage using mains power

I just revived a Red dead Vectrix VX-1 using this method. It charged to 101 volts in just under 3 minutes. I then plugged it in and the on-board charger started right up! It was totaled by the insurance company back in 2016. On my first ride I took it 9.1 miles and only lost 4 bars! Thank you BIKEMAD! If anyone would like to buy the charger, please let me know. Thanks, Skip

Stuart Keaton

MEroller
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Re: Reviving the Battery Voltage using mains power

Better keep that revival charger, you may need it again...

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2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW

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