I purchased 2 of these things for $150, made a quick road trip to Kansas City, disassembled them and yes, fit them BOTH-complete into a 2000 Celica. I took the best parts from both, built a working scooter and attended to the bulk of the shortcomings this Pep-Boys beastie dished out. I now ride 6 miles both ways(12/day+) to and from work, no major issues other than what could be expected. The range is about half the rated '24 miles' and the top speed is about 25mph, though it's constant and it contends pretty well with hills.
I replaced the batteries with a new set, oddly enough, the original set -which sat outside discharged in the summer and freezing winter for 3 years- outperforms the new batteries.
All I really want is a bit more top speed. I've read into the 'booster' button idea which dumps an additional 12v battery into the controller and I'm all but certain the voltage is sagging enough to allow it without smoking the controller.
I believe I understand the wiring for a 'boost' button fine, and the stock starter button for the fuel model is in the ideal location to trigger a relay. It also seems to me, the only way to wire one will cause a delay when it kicks in, and may initially hit the controller with full voltage.
I'm seriously debating running 60v fulltime if I could just find specs on the controller, no idea what brand it is, just has a box on the back checked 48v. Seems I read a thread once where a fellow was running the identical setup on 60v for several months or more with no issues, but I can't seem to find the thread.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
There was a lot of talk in the old forum a couple years ago about the Panterra. I don't recall anyone achieving much luck raising controller amperages or voltages for more speed without burning them out.
If you try a 60 volt upgrade, look up the part numbers on the controller's components - particular the capacitors and MOSFETS - googling the part numbers will often lead you to the component's data sheet, then see how much voltage they can handle. The capacitors will probably be 63 volt, which will be marginal with the 68 volts of a fully charged pack. You will have to upgrade to 100 volt and find ones that will fit. The MOSFET drain-source breakdown voltage has to be high enough too.
Of course, you can always rig a relay and "turbo" button to bypass the controller altogether and feed higher voltage, and unlimited amperage, straight to the motor. Just be careful - using such a setup for starting up a steep hill or such could burn that little 750 watt motor out pretty quick - only use it once up to speed.
I have one of these scooters (Retro model) now with over 3000 miles. The motor is brushless so a controller bypass will kill the motor. Running the scooter at 60 volts will cause problems and likely result in premature controller failure. When I did it, my controller died after several months. Also the scooter would not start fresh off the charger and required about a 20-30 minute rest before the voltage would go below the over-voltage protection circuit in the controller. The DC-DC converter also is only specified up to 60 volts max so it may fail early too. The risks probably out weigh the benefits as the speed increase was only about 4-5 mph (would have been more but only about 25 amps are being put out by the controller) and the mod required rewiring the battery pack, giving up underseat storage, and last but not least buying a new controller which was a PITA to find.
If you do the mod, I would have a spare controller available and strongly consider modifying the controller so that it puts out at least 35 amps (will likely decrease range and the longevity of the half-U1 size batteries) to get the full benefit from the added voltage increase. The backside of the controller should have a box checked to let you know how many amps the controller will deliver to the motor. Also, I would not use a 60 volt charger. I would instead have the additional battery removeable and individually charged with it's own charger. A 60 volt charger would likely go up close to 75 volts and I recall the controller having capacitors only rated up to 63 volts (which you may consider replacing) and FETS rated to 75 volts. Having a temporary boost for added speed would likely be more reliable than full-time use at 60 volts.
Thanks so much for the responses!
To address a few things- it is a brushless motor. It never approaches hot, rarely even lukewarm.
4 or 5mph would be perfect for speed increase to help keep up with traffic here. It's ok that it grunts on the hills. The only hills I have are before I hit traffic, and it manages them at 15-20mph. My understanding is modifying the bus-bar by adding a rail would draw more amperage and aid acceleration, but top speed would remain the same.
I did run the numbers on the FETs and I believe they were 75v. I'm guessing it's not so simple as to run 60v on the heavy 'in' wires on the controller and only 48v on the power wire to the controller to avoid frying other components?
The thought that sticks in my head is: I know it's pulling the voltage down, so inherently it seems adding another battery would be fine, especially if I were easy on the throttle. Wiring in a 'boost' button with a relay seems hard on the controller. With a brushed motor, I'd hit the motor leads with more voltage, with b/l, I'd have to run it into the controller.
I didn't even think about over-voltage protection kicking in.... hah. I know it has a 42v low voltage shutoff. I dip into the yellow(just barely) in my 6 mile trip home and dip JUST into the red on the 'power meter' on my way back to work in the morning.
I have a full set of spare electronics, but I'd rather not destroy them after the advice posted here. Perhaps cleaning up the wiring, replacing the hi-loss connectors or even bigger wheels/tires if I could figure that one out...
I work for a solar outfit and we have one EV already. I'm so persistent with this scooter more to prove it can be done than anything. I like the way it looks, and really feel like it's so close to working just fine.
One last thought... I know how to mod the controller to provide more amps... I know the motor should take it fine... If I were able to get to speed faster, even the current top speed of 25mph... would it be less taxing on the batteries to maintain the speed once reached?
Thanks again for the replies
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do.
www.powersourcesolar.com
`ndflicks ,
Welcome to the V is for Voltage Community, I almost did something similar when Pep Boys was getting rid of them, but I wold had to go to Springfield MO from St. Louis to pick it up.
If I remember correctly they were very heavy, and 750 Watts which put them right at the legal limit at the time. So I really wanted one, and you couldn't beat the price. My problem was locating possible replacement parts that were left over when they went under.
Panterra Freedom 750W Street Legal Electric Scooter
Product Description
Big enough for two! With storage compartment.
Available colors:
black, Part # 06035
burgundy, Part # 06068
white, Part # 06067
* Speeds up to 28 mph*
* 24.8-mile range on single charge
* 750 Watt power
*Speeds and distance vary by weight of rider and terrain
Some colors may not be available in-store.
See store for details.
STREET LEGAL!**
**Not street legal in certain Indiana and New Jersey municipalities.
I was told by a lady from the Parent company Baja Motorsports would have any replacement parts that were left over, when I contacted Baja Motorsports, they knew nothing about it. She then said the parts were in a warehouse somewhere, and to let her know which replacement parts I needed and she would look for them. So I backed off, but I never thought about taking it all apart to fit it in the rear of a Focus. For $150 it would have still been a bargain just for the parts. Well we live and learn, sometime a gamble will pay off, maybe that's why I very seldom go to the Casino or play the lottery.
You've come to the right place to ask questions, if our members can't help you, it can't be done. Good luck and please keep us updated on your progress, and throw in some pictures also.
Peace Out,
Gman
What is your vision for the future our growing community?
Peace Out, <img src="http://tinyurl.com/ysafbn">
Gman
Gman... I'm in Springfield, incidentally... and yes, it's a bit heavy, but not as bad as reputed. For a '2 seater' -hah- it's 220lbs with 60 of that in battery. Not so shabby.
Ok, don't laugh or point, but 2 things on my mind at the moment are:
1. Will increasing the amp flow on my controller be a good first step? I can measure resistance well enough and add a jumper to the bus bar to push a few more amps. I only have experience with motors moving a vehicle around from a model airplane perspective, but I do know in that realm, adding 'power' but not rpm will get you to and keep you at full speed better and tax your batteries less. The batteries are not so compliant getting it up to speed(especially on hills) but do pretty well keeping it trucking along once full speed is reached. It seems hitting them a bit harder for shorter periods of time(IE hill climbing or getting to top rpm) might be less hard on them in the long run.
2. Adding a motor. Yes, it fits. And yes, I do have a spare. The weight difference is negligible, and the rear brake is better than the current front. I can mount the spare rear wheel/motor assembly in the front forks with just 2 modified spacers and a brace for the brake(to keep it from rotating). I also have a spare controller which should be required since they are brushless motors. The amps drawn at full throttle are extremely minimal, dropping my voltage by around 1 volt compared to 'at rest'.
The 'bike' isn't well made if you look at it as a whole, however, I'm impressed with the welds, suspension, wheels, tires, etc... so a bit of work on my part to fit the bodywork better and access the batteries as well as refine the wiring/electronics makes it a potentially viable ride. All in all, I'm very pleased with it. Pics to follow.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do.
www.powersourcesolar.com
My intention for boosting voltage was to introduce it into the controller, not the motor. I don't think it's possible on a brushless to just dump voltage to the motor it's self. As far as the amperage route, I really feel that was the best next step.... and I actually had found the thread you posted, good info!
With the large model airplanes I've converted, braking by grounding 2 of the leads of the motor(brushless) is a great way to prevent windmill effects to get smooth gliding.
I finally have pictures to post, darndest thing is: I took them yesterday afternoon. The moped was stolen sometime last night. I'm pretty unhappy about it, I put a lot of work into this whole thing.... not a lot of money, but enough to hurt the wallet a bit... but the biggest downer is, the nerve of someone to swipe my ride. I've only had it about 3 weeks. It's only been here at the apartment for 2 weeks. Started out with a carload of broken, mismatched parts- I thought I managed to make it come out pretty well.
Anyhow.... I don't know if I can answer questions for anyone who is trying to make one of these scooters work out for them, but if I can, I'd be glad to help.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do.
www.powersourcesolar.com
That's a shame, it getting stolen.
Odd thing, in my area, scooters seem to be so unpopular - that I don't think theft is much of problem. Eggs and other objects have been thrown at it, but no theft attempts!
Sorry to hear about the theft! :(
Guess that's why I live in the boonies, have three dogs and a shotgun ...
If anyone gets my eBike out of my yard they aren't going to be able to sit down for a very long time ... even then they'll be sittin' down lopsided.
Hope they track it down for ya.
I guess the only real saving grace is the fact that building is about half the fun and they can't steal that from ya.
It's a sad deal though ... very sad indeed.
MB-1-E
Dave B
MB-1-E
<a href="http://visforvoltage.org/book-page/996-mountain-bike-conversion-24v-3-4h... - Bridgestone MB-1 Mountain Bike</a>
Sorry to hear about the theft. Likely it will get dumped it somewhere after the thief can't figure out how to charge the batteries. Hopefully, they will try a regular computer power supply cable and get no use out of the scooter. If nothing else, you may be able to sell leftover parts here or on e*bay.
May be here for spare parts. I never tried so i can't tell if they are reliable.
Jean-François
:(
ndflicks,
Very sorry to hear about the lost. I have a alarm on my Scoot.
BTW, do you ever attend any of the Renewable Energy Fairs? We're finally having one in the STL this weekend.
Grand Opening) MORE Energy Show, August 25th, 2007: 10 AM to 2 PM, St. Louis, Missouri.
Peace Out, <img src="http://tinyurl.com/ysafbn">
Gman
Deafscooter is here ....
=
=
=
=
Welding your name on the frame is a practical way to reduce the risk of theft.
There would be no doubt who the rightful owner is.
Do Welding "Tattoo" on your metal frame !!!!
Craig Uyeda
Deafscooter
deafscooter
Ouch!
Well, If I see a blue Panterra going by silently, I'll check to see if its yours.
Y'all keep an eye out for a bright yellow e-Vespa clone, stolen from under my bedroom window this March. I could tell, because they hit the "starter" to try to get it going, and the horn went off.... Grrr...
Mark
WOW, thank you guys so much for the kind words, suggestions and horror stories...
In retrospect, I really should have attached a 'hidden' plate or hammered my name or whatnot in the frame somewhere. I thought I had copied down the VIN but can't find it- figures, huh? However, I only had it at the apt. for a couple weeks and the idea it might be stolen hadn't quite worked it's way into my brain yet.
As far as getting it back, I doubt I'll ever see it whole again. Odds are, a totalled chassis will find it's way into a ditch somewhere or pieces might come up for sale at a flea market. I would assume that once they figured out it wasn't 49cc, they'd either destroy it out of angst or whatever possessed them to steal it initially... that or it will rot out behind someone's barn or whatever. Either way- if I do happen upon it again, parts/repair will likely exceed the cost of new.
I'm certainly not turned off to the idea though. I picked one of the least 'do-able', practical e-rides. It just had too many shortcomings. I STILL had a great time and learned a bit. I can't quite come up with a way to get around the theft issue though.
Since the theft, I've been knee deep in converting my bike, and have nearly finished. I just have to work out a chain tensioner. Motor, speed control, batteries, throttle- all installed and I'm very happy with it... plus I can heft it up the stairs and store it in the apartment.
RE: Motorcycle thefts- It's happened once to me as well: not as outrageous as the beloved CB500 posted by usatracy, but equally upsetting. My KLR650, of which I had put on over 30,000 miles and was by far my favorite motorcycle for daily riding or roadtrips, had been religiously locked up since I had purchased it. It was extensively modified(inverted forks, modified cam, 18 inch wheels laced front and back, upgraded brakes, etc...) and the ONE time I did not lock it was to run upstairs and take a shower before heading back out for the evening. 15 minutes later I was back downstairs and it was gone.... It showed up about 6 months later, thoroughly thrashed, serial numbers ground off and missing several parts. I wrestled the police on the issue and was unable to initiate prosecution. In the mean time, the bike mysteriously disappeared from the home of the kid who stole it(incidentally I knew him... go figure).
Such is life I guess. I do a fair job reminding myself that in the grand scheme of things, it's just not important enough to beat my head over.
Moral of the story? Regardless of where you live or where you park, even if you'll only be upstairs for 15 minutes- diligently secure your scooter/bike/motorcycle. Take every precaution no matter how 'overkill' it seems, and don't let the act of securing it become mundane...
Thank you all so much(again), your responses really do make me feel better.
**EDIT** by the way, gman... we do attend several energy fairs a year, last one was last week in Rocheport, next one will be Farm Fest next weekend.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do.
www.powersourcesolar.com
Well, that's one of the strengths of the step-through scoots: ability to hold a big chain under the seat. I always felt bad carrying 10 pounds of chain on a 25 pound bike, but I don't mind carrying that same chain on a 140 pounder.
MarkF
Can I purchase a bigger motor and batteries to expand the range and speed of this scooter. I am thinking of buying this scooter but I need to go 35mph or more. Can I buy 2000 watt motor and 12volt35amp batteries for this scooter. They guy is selling the scooter for 450.00. He is saying that he would make it a 60 volts for extra. What is your advice here.
I have one of the Panterra electric scooters that I ran at 60 volts for a while. It added maybe 5-6 mph to the top speed and eventually destroyed the original controller. The speed limitation was probably due to the controller only putting out 25 amps which won't take you much over thirty mph. The scooter also only has drum brakes front and rear so going too fast will not be too safe especially if you are going downhill.
I would probably suggest just getting a bigger, faster scooter already running at 60V (EVT Z-20, XM-2000 etc.) especially if the guy is charging $450 which is quite high IMHO. By the time you buy a new hub motor, new/upgraded controller, additional batteries, and a new charger as well as make modifications to make everything fit and work together, it won't be worth the effort and the expense will be close to the same cost as a newer more powerful scooter.
Don't forget: Pep Boys clearanced off these scooters at $299 each in a sort of 'reckless abandonment' move. There's no support, extremely limited parts availability, and they weren't entirely well made(understatement of the year).
For $450, if it's working properly, is in very good cosmetic shape, and operates exactly the way you want(top speed AND range), $450 might be a decent deal. However, it sounds like you want more already and I'd steer clear of it.
I purchased 2 complete, though not entirely pretty, for $150 and my intention was to play- hoping, but not counting on- getting a reliable runner out of the deal.
I'd second the advise to keep your eyes peeled for a different scooter, or consider *GASP* a 49cc scooter. In that price range, it should be doable.
We did a solar installation for a charging system last week for a lady with an EV 4000. It's a bit smaller than the Panterra, but at 1500w and 50ah batts, it got up to speed quickly and has the range I was shooting for with the Panterra. You'll run into too many limiting factors with the scooter you're looking at, I'm afraid... battery issues, speed control limitations, 750w motor, weight- mods=$$.
I was out to get 28-30mph on mine, I believe it would have been doable, but I was prepared to put out a lot of time and some cash to make it happen.
Good luck!
**EDIT** RE: bigger batteries- the 18ah-20ah stock batteries eat up all the room allotted in the frame. It is possible to double up and cutout the bottom of the underseat storage(I did this on mine at one time) to run 2 sets of 4 batts in parallel, but the added 60lbs of weight seemed to negate any additional range and didn't add any speed.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do.
www.powersourcesolar.com
Guys,
I also have a Panterra Fusion I picked up a couple of years ago at a clearing house in Dallas that had equipment and applicances from hurricane Katrina. It was brand new. I've had to replace the hub motor once already. Can anybody tell me what the yellow button on the right side below the throttle is? I'm pretty sure it's for regenerative braking. I disconnected it since it caused my original wheel motor to fry. Any information would be appreciated. I've also had to disconnect the input from this button at the controller recently due to an apparent grounding issue.
kerrmick [at] gmail.com