A new green era???

27 posts / 0 new
Last post
Alias
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, October 1, 2007 - 10:04
Points: 307
A new green era???

I definetly found this article to be worth while of reading

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=455013&topart=utes

davew
davew's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Monday, November 20, 2006 - 20:13
Points: 85376
Re: A new green era???

It's interesting and hopeful... sort of. Consumers and Detroit will change their ways. Kicking and screaming if necessary, but not very quickly. V8s turning into turbo-V6s won't change much. I'm thinking $10 gas will work much faster.

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A new green era???

I only read about 2/3rds of the article - but I sensed that it's kind of a scare tactic piece that will make a lot of car enthusiasts very anti any sort of change. The truth is that I can't see any reason why there won't be a whole host of sports car oriented BEVs.

However, traditional car mags - especially folks like Car and Driver (based in tree-hugging Ann Arbor no less!) - like to scream "the sky is falling! they want to take all our toys away!" That's one reason why the Tesla, Fetish, WrightSpeed 1 etc are important - it helps provide examples that the speed freaks (like me!) can get excited about...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

andrew
andrew's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 10 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 17:21
Points: 1361
Re: A new green era???

However, traditional car mags - especially folks like Car and Driver (based in tree-hugging Ann Arbor no less!) - like to scream "the sky is falling! they want to take all our toys away!" That's one reason why the Tesla, Fetish, WrightSpeed 1 etc are important - it helps provide examples that the speed freaks (like me!) can get excited about...

But really the CARB mandate said nothing about muscle cars. It doesn't sound like the new CAFE standards will have much an impact on them. It could hardly be called a green era, or end of any sort of era. Our fuel consumption is still rising, and we are still sucking oil out of the ground faster. The title of the article is very misleading, and you make a valid point jdh.

[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri

gushar
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 - 12:53
Points: 361
Re: A new green era???

I think that article is way short of describing the probable not so distant future demize and extinction of the gas guzzling auto. I remind people all the time that the younger folks of today don't even know the "muscle" car type of mentality. Look what they drive...Civics, Zions, and the like. The generation coming along...and that may be some here...they really are the "accepters" when it comes to moving the alternative auto innovations along. What will mean, and I think means now, the most to them is a car that "looks good" and has reasonable speed...and the most "technology." Heck they're more interested in "bluetooth" and "gps" tech...ipod mods...and on and on. Those integrate nicely I think with electric/electronic innovation. So I totally disagree with the author of that article. I think we're going to see what the market will begin to demand...away from gasoline period. I'd like to know how many people under age...say 40-45...have purchased a new Corvette??? My guess is not many comparatively to total purchases. Nope I think the author is going to see change alot more rapidly than he projected. Tie all of this with the "unrest" that continues in the Middle East and it may happen even sooner. Auto companies are going to manufacture what sells. And, in the nearer future that ain't gonna be no gas guzzler or even close.

My take...

Gushar

Gus

Alias
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, October 1, 2007 - 10:04
Points: 307
Re: A new green era???

I'd have to say that I don't disagree or agree with the article or the author. neutral? :?
I really don't like how the author said

But the days of guzzling gas as quickly as you can hose it into your tank are over

I find this to be very misleading because as some of you pointed out we are tapping into the
ground and it will unfortunatley continue because we have become accustomed to it.
Now we are trying to undo the damage we have already done.

Alias
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, October 1, 2007 - 10:04
Points: 307
Re: A new green era???

It is interesting and hopeful but how do you get consumers, especially large companies with fleet vehicles to
change their ways?? For example I drive a V8 for work, I use more fuel per week than in my own vehicle.
I think it will be interesting to find transportation companies who obviously consume a lot more to get them to change their ways.
Hey I won't go kicking and screaming id be doing something for the environment and
id be saving my own nickels and dimes; gimme an ev! no hybrids or fuel cells, an Electric vehicle free from ice.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A new green era???

the younger folks of today don't even know the "muscle" car type of mentality. Look what they drive...Civics, Zions, and the like. The generation coming along...and that may be some here...they really are the "accepters" when it comes to moving the alternative auto innovations along. What will mean, and I think means now, the most to them is a car that "looks good" and has reasonable speed...and the most "technology." Heck they're more interested in "bluetooth" and "gps" tech...ipod mods...and on and on. Those integrate nicely I think with electric/electronic innovation. So I totally disagree with the author of that article.

I agree with most of this - i.e. the young car enthusiast is into smaller cars and "modding" them. The mods are often cosmetic or infotainment based. However, there is a BIG market for performance parts for this cars. Muscle car aficionados call the new generation "ricers" and mutter things like "there's no replacement for displacement". The small car crowd gets into their Subaru WRX STi or Mitsibushi Evo and says "so, grandpa, wanna race? How about some drifting?"

In other words - although the younger generation is less focused on muscle cars I think they are still focused on speed and performance as much as we ever were.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 17:14
Points: 1309
Re: A new green era???

The small car crowd gets into their Subaru WRX STi or Mitsibushi Evo and says "so, grandpa, wanna race? How about some drifting?"

I got a good laugh from this, I was "drifting" long before it was called drifting. My 442 Cutlass had more than enough power for it. I know this is off topic but this grandpa has been doing and still doing things todays kids never though to do. LOL I have my toys, 2 Trans Ams, one is a 1976 Smokie and the Bandit Black TA with the Gold Screaming Eagle on the hood and a 455 Ci. 740 Horsepower Detroit V8 under the hood with the 4-speed right behind it. Only 8 to 10 MPG but it sure is fun to run once or twice a month during the summer.
Here's a pictureTA_04.jpg

Jesse
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 9 months ago
Joined: Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 17:14
Points: 14
Re: A new green era???

Hehe, you Americans and your v8's. When i was in America 2 years ago i did some road trips and we mostly just hired a ordinary car(some ford taurus which guess what had a V8 and did like 20mpg performance was crap and you couldn't even enjoy the V8 sound. Same typ of car in Europe would have a 4 cylinders engine with more bhp doing 30mpg. Don't get me wrong i love cars.. nothing goes above a engine screaming at full throttle or the deep sound of a V8 is just don't get why you should want a V8 in a ordinary every day family car when you could do the same with a faster more efficient smaller engine. I drive a (stock)Suzuki swift GTI never breaks down it does 0-60 in 8,6 seconds top speed is 130mph does 35mpg(depends on how you drive ^^) and its has a 1.3 liter engine ! Btw im not concerned at all about CO2(but thats a different story) , im just concerned if we spoil to much oil on useless big engines we cant enjoy the sweet sound of screaming F1 cars and the smell of fuel in like 25 years

img of my tiny racer :P
//img167.imageshack.us/img167/8112/img0172bp1.jpg)

p.s expansive gas wont make a diffrance we pay $8,50 gallon and they say it will be like $10 by the end of the year and no one is driving less to tell the thruth they never sold so many cars as the past year :P

reikiman
reikiman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 17:52
Points: 8447
Re: A new green era???

Jesse, I was in Brussels over the weekend and was looking a lot at the traffic & vehicles comparing with what I know here in the U.S. Yes, of course, most of the cars I saw were smaller ones. The stereotype we have in the U.S. is that in European cities there are lots of narrow twisty roads in the cities, because the cities are older and generally built before cars. I think that's only part of the reason and in any case not all the city roads are narrow and twisting.

I also saw lots of people walking, and the mass transit system is heavily used. Mass transit was a full range of busses to trams to trains.

Brussels anyway is settled a bit more densely than typical U.S. city. Most of the city seemed to be 5 story apartment and office buildings with just a few taller buildings and little I could see in the way of detached single family homes. In the U.S. on the other hand the single family home is very typical unless you're in a city. The lower density living of an area dominated with single family homes means that mass transit doesn't have enough people to make a go of it. Actual city life in the U.S. is generally densely enough settled to support mass transit, and U.S. cities tend to have mass transit systems that work better than out in the suburbs. But because U.S. cities are all surrounded by vast swaths of suburbs with dysfunctional mass transit the systems tend to go underused anyway.

And, yeah, there were a lot of cars on the Brussels roads. Sigh.

I was talking fuel prices with one of the meeting attendees.. he's from Finland and he went through the calculation to convert his cost-per-liter price to dollars-per-gallon and it came to over $9/gallon.

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra To

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A new green era???

Grandpa Chas - yeah, I know muscle cars are fun. You can't beat RWD and gobs of torque. I drove Mustang GT convertibles for a while (when I worked at Ford and the idiots gave me a new one every year).

Speedracer Jesse - I like little cars to. I currently drive a Focus SVT - but it doesn't get anywhere near 35MPG - I do have a heavy right foot.

I nearly bought a WRX STi - it reminded me a bit of the Cosworth Escort they sold in the early (or was it mid?) 90's. What with the big whale tail on both of them. But then I realized that I'd get way too many speeding tickets and I should begin focusing on a different automotive hobby - hence EVs...

Now, of course, at the end of the day I want a REALLY FAST EV (I hope the Zap-X happens, and I hope I can persuade the wife that it really is worth me donating an organ or two to get one - hint, the Zap-X hitting every BS claim is more likely than me persuading my wife to let me buy one).

I love cars (sorry DaveW ;))

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 17:14
Points: 1309
Re: A new green era???

Jess,

I have a 4 cylinder for my daily driver. It is a Pontiac Sunfire 4 cylinder 5-speed and gets 30 MPH city and 38 MPH hwy. It is not a super fast car but it will keep up with most cars on the road. The TA is just a summer fun car @ 8-11 MPH no matter how you drive it, but 0 to 160 has been timed at 11.7 seconds. One day I was driving a 2 lane road and passed a line of slow traffic, what do you think I found leading the line. That's right the man (officer) when I passed him I was at 130 so I just held it down and he didn't even come after me. You see the police cruisers here are governed to 130 MPH so he figured he couldn't catch me anyway, I guess. I just got lucky on that one. The part I really like is shifting from 3rd to 4th at 110 MPH and leaving a small patch of rubber, this is one V8 with real muscle.

Well I guess we hijacked this thread, my fault sorry,
Grandpa Chas S.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A new green era???

Your lucky he didn't call out the eye in the sky...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

spinningmagnets
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 20:48
Points: 295
Re: A new green era???

Compare the 1967 Corvette 396 with the '67 E-type Jaguar.

Using two-valves per cylinder in a cast iron block and a single cam for all 8 cylinders was very cost-effective for the sales price. It had a cheap and beefy suspension. Disc brakes were an option. The US had lots of long straight roads and highways. 12 MPG from a heavy car? nobody cared because gas was cheap, the car was affordable, it was fast, and CHICKS DIG IT!.

Europe has many curvy roads and very expensive fuel, plus there were displacement taxes, making big engines very expensive.

The light-weight Jag had a very sophisticated independent suspension with 4-wheel disc brakes. The small all-aluminum inline 6-cylinder engine could run at very high RPM's with a double overhead cam, and 4-valves per cylinder.

The Jag was much more expensive than the Corvette that year.

In the mid 70's it was very hard to find the very attractive and popular '67 Nova. It was smallest and lightest car that could drop in a high-compression 327 V8. Better than 1 HP per 10 pounds.

Fuel economy pressures have revived and improved cylinder deactivation. Chryslers new Hemi, GM's V6, and Hondas V6 are all working well using half their cylinders during light loads. Turbo 4-cylinder engines are now well-developed and will increase in use as CAFE standards become more restrictive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_displacement

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 17:14
Points: 1309
Re: A new green era???

As I go back and read this thread I think one of the points about the smaller cars should be mentioned. They would out handle my TA without a doubt. The TA is sooooo heavy if you needed to turn it at high speed you out of luck, it is a great straight line car or big sweeping turns are OK but forget turning a normal corner at high speeds. Turn the wheel and it just keeps going straight. Makes a good snow-plow ,LOL

Grandpa Chas S.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 6 days ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: A new green era???

David H,

Not all US cities are sprawling. Here's my old rust belt neighborhood until a year and a half ago - you could walk anywhere or a bus where there every 12 minutes. You didn't need a car except for out of town outings.

//i109.photobucket.com/albums/n77/PJD123/BloomfieldSmallJPG.jpg)

At night:

//i109.photobucket.com/albums/n77/PJD123/Attic2Small.jpg)

It may be old, a bit run-down and unfashionable, but as far as I'm concerned Bloomfield is a prototype of a post-carbon community. I wish I hadn't moved.

Alias
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, October 1, 2007 - 10:04
Points: 307
Re: A new green era???

I wish I hadn't moved

You can count me in on that quote; I feel the same way and I wish I had not moved from Portland Oregon, sigh*
I came back to the bay area and I don't like the fast paced life-style here; it's kind of ironic because I
was born and raised in the Bay Area California. Unfortunately we move because sometimes our lives change :)
Ah but I plan on eventually returning :)

Jesse
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 9 months ago
Joined: Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 17:14
Points: 14
Re: A new green era???

The most wanted car at the moment in a lot of European countries its a fiat 500 remake:
//www.autowereld.com/imagesDB/400/7118123915199_.jpg)

you can get it with a 1.3 turbodiesel with 75bhp, 1.2 with 69bhp and a 1.4 with 100bhp. The 1.2 engine does 100mph and 50mpg(combined use) the diesel does 70mpg at the high way :P

i notice engines are getting less and less important cars have to look good be comfortable and be cheap. When you buy this car you can chose out of a lot of colors of even the smalles parts so you get a "unique" car.

Ofc we still have plenty of bmw's and mercedeses, Audi's , VW and plenty of other cars with 300+ bhp engines and capable of doing like 160-190mph.

oh and ofcourse like al popular european models there is comming a tuned version with a 1.4 twin turbo with arround 180bhp :P (the car only weights like 850kg)

davew
davew's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Monday, November 20, 2006 - 20:13
Points: 85376
Re: A new green era???

It may be old, a bit run-down and unfashionable, but as far as I'm concerned Bloomfield is a prototype of a post-carbon community. I wish I hadn't moved.

I miss my old town, too. I could bike everywhere in 10 minutes. Of course I was dumber back then and drove every place in 5 minutes just as soon as I was old enough. Now I've lived a few more places and even in the least alternative transportation friendly of them, there were still ways to do it. When I moved to Longmont I located a house that was close to everything I needed and lucked out that it was well served by bus routes. Of course I didn't even know there was a bus running down my street until I started looking at the schedules. I also didn't know there were really excellent and safe ways to get around by bicycle until I started exploring. I also didn't know you could take your bike on the bus until I saw someone do it.

The point of this is rather than lamenting how we must be addicted to cars because our cities make it so, find out. Maybe it is not as true as you think it is. Bus routes and schedules are determined by ridership. The more riders, the more accessible the service becomes. This is one case where we do get to vote with our wallet.

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 17:14
Points: 1309
Re: A new green era???

The following is something the company I work for published. I thought it was a good idea so I am sharing it with all of you. I know this is mainly for the US members but hopefully there are similar organizations in other countries. I think it would be great if we all stopped the since less killing of trees for junk mail.

GREEN PLANET TIP . . .

If you could eliminate a lot of your junk mail for five years for just $41, would you? Modernize your life and take control of your personal paper consumption. 41pounds.org will contact 20 to 30 direct mail companies on your behalf to stop the majority of your bulk mail. For just $41 and a few minutes of your time, you can relish in all you've done to help the environment for the next five years.

Save Trees? Check.
Reduce the impact of global warming? Check.
Save Water? Check.
Save time? Check.

41pounds.org is a nonprofit organization working to eliminate a big personal nuisance and environmental hazard — junk mail. The name comes from the amount of junk mail the average person receives each year (credit card applications, catalogs, coupon books, etc.), which for the most part goes directly into the trash can or recycling bin. Even with recycling programs all over the country, the majority of household waste is junk mail, and paper takes up about 40% of landfill space!

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 6 days ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: A new green era???

The most wanted car at the moment in a lot of European countries its a fiat 500 remake...

Why in the world aren't such cars available over here??? Most people in the US would consider a 100 mph, 70 mpg car to be a technological impossibility. Of course the low weight 850 kg - (1850 lb) is one reason.

A Fiat? We haven't been able to get Fiat's in the US since the early 1970's - when we could also get Renaults, Citroens, British Fords, Morris minis...

We are victims of an industry conspiracy.

As far as Bloomfield, I only moved 8 miles away - the "South Hills" just outside the city limits - but culturally it is another country. Talk about white-bread!

Jesse
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 9 months ago
Joined: Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 17:14
Points: 14
Re: A new green era???

well i lately saw in a news item you guys finally got the Smart (after it has been around here for like 10 years)

Yes it is very small :P doesnt feel like that when you on the inside though

the fastest version has 84bhp does 90mph and combined use it does 50mpg its a real city car though
and there is also a diesel version which i guess does also around 70mpg

and you always have a place to park it :P:
//blog.vehiclevoice.com/Harrods%20Smart.jpg)

btw the smart is made by Mercedes and there for makes it a Daimler Chrysler car so kinda weird its getting this late to America

spinningmagnets
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 20:48
Points: 295
Re: A new green era???

There are exactly 2 of the Smart fortwo cars in my city (St George, Utah). Only through extensive engineering has Mercedes been able to design a car this small and light that can pass the US's stringent crash regulations. I wouldn't mind having one, but I still wouldn't drive it on the freeway, there are three-trailer trucks here driving 75 MPH.

US regs are so restrictive because of the how lawsuit laws here allow plaintiffs to get millions of dollars for "pain and suffering" (above the cost of injuries and lost work). If a manufacturer produces a product that is inherently weak and defective, they SHOULD be sued, but what is the limit?

Don't misunderstand me, if I was the victim of an injury from a poorly designed product, I will take EVERY dollar the jury awards me, even if it put the company out of business. But should I get half a million dollars, or 50 million?

What if you are on the jury, and you award me 50 million dollars...great, but what if then, (based on a fear of huge american lawsuits) VW decides to not import their 80 MPG "Lupo" to the US.

This is a country where a woman went through a McDonalds drive-through and bought a hot coffee. She didn't have a cup holder, so she put the cup between her thighs to drive away. Operating the pedals caused the top to pop off, spilling hot coffee on her "special" areas. This caused her to jump, spilling the rest of the coffee, causing severe burns.

She was actually awarded millions of dollars (I still don't understand how this was McDonalds fault)...I would have awarded her lots of coupons for free coffee. I also would have given her (free of charge) one of those sandbags you put on the floor, the kind with a cup holder in the middle.

The light-weight Tata car from India will never be imported to the US, but if it was, when the inevitable accident occurred that involved one of them, do you doubt there would be a lawsuit?

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A new green era???

I don't disagree with sm - however, it's a common misconception that "light weight" = "less safe". I don't think a light car would necessarily have trouble with US standards (in fact I've heard German / EU standards are tougher in some aspects).

However, because it's a common misconception it's one that means small cars are much more difficult to sell.

(Note, before bringing up 1970's Datsun's and Pinto's remember that automotive safety and engineering have come along way since then!!!) Thank God! :-) )

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

Jesse
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 9 months ago
Joined: Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 17:14
Points: 14
Re: A new green era???

Most european cars have 5 stars in crash tests and dont get me wrong are of way better build quality then most american cars. I can understand that you dont wanne drive in small smart on your highways, ive been there and sometimes those trucks really scared the hell out of me racing with 80+mph? past you. here trucks have a speedlimit of 50mph on any highway and im glad they have :P

Alias
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, October 1, 2007 - 10:04
Points: 307
Re: A new green era???

Chas, thanks for sharing the weblink I checked it out and I would like to subscribe to something like this.
If this is a ligit company that can and will reduce environmental hazards.
I hate junk mail and it usually goes into my recycle bin and sometimes I wonder if all of it gets recycled???
It's like, what do recycle companies accept and not accept for recycling? Even though you know what to throw
in your bins do they recycle all of it?? I can't stand junk mail; credit card junk mail I usually shred those
because they have your personal information on there. There is one thing I can't stand that we do with all
of our garbage it gets deposited onto our lands literally. It's amazing how many garbage dumps there are
This is part of our problem and I think it gets overlooked.

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • CYBRTRKR
  • ericaturner
  • 2008VectrixForSale
  • flapjacksbestof
  • incomefun

Customize This