36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in series

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jyracing
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36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in series

Hello, I'm just starting to understand series wiring. I found these really interesting 12 volt 3 bulb lights that I would like to use on my 36 volt trike.
Taillight.jpg
I think if I hook them up in series they should work without using a voltage reducer. Each light has 5 wires... a common ground, one positive wire each for the outside bulbs (turn signals actually but I will you them as tail lights), two positive wires for the double filament middle bulb (brake and tail light, but I will use just the tail light). They are tail lights but if I change the red and amber bulbs to clear bulbs I can use one of them as a headlight. Here is a rough drawing of what I have in mind.
36vseriestaillightheadlight.gif
Does it look right?

I would also like to use the brake light too but wont it cause a short if the common ground, being part of the series, was also hooked up to the brake light. Is there a way around this?

Thanks,
JY

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

jy,

The diagram you have will work and using one set as a head light might work but I doubt they will give you much light to see with. You could use a 12-volt headlight in place of one of the tail light assemblies. Another option is to connect a switch to the brake light filament (using a clear dual filament bulb) to give you a brighter headlight. Kind of like brights and dims on an auto.

Grandpa Chas S.

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Hi Chas,
Well, if it is right, I only have you to thank. Good teachers can even teach poor students.
I am going to use your previous idea...
"I also took the Battery Indicator Connector an used it to run a 36-volt tail light and a battery meter if you want them."

This common ground in series is confusing me...
I cant run a seperate circut on a common ground in series. Magic Smoke?
I would like to use the brake light indicator connector from the controller to light the second filament on the 2 middle taillight bulbs but I am worried that it will cause a short, since the common ground is in series. Wont it cause a short???

The bulbs are 10 watts (Red and Clear) and 3 watts (Amber).

A 10 watt High beam! :) LOL good idea.
I'm not worried about headlight brightness per se, just meeting the 300' visable by others CA law requirement. But you know how I love switches :)

Looking at the dotted lines on the drawing below, if it doesnt short then It seems like all the lights on the taillights will come on when I hit the brakes. Is there anyway around that?

How about removing the middle bulb's ground wire from the series (cut and solder) and just use them for the brake lights like this?
36vseriestaillightheadlight7.gif

Theoretically, wont the brake lights then be 18V each if I dont add a third light in the new series? Lights burn brightest before they burn out.

With this last setup, I have 12 watt taillights, 20 watt brake lights, and 26 watt headlights (16 watt low beam headlights, with an extra 10 watt high beam.) The Battery Indicator Connector is running 38 watts and the Brakelight Connector is running 20 watts. I assume the controller can handle these wattages?

JY

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Does this setup cause all lights to go out if a single one fails?

Mr. Mik

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

If you use that diagram you are going to see the magic smoke...LOL

The best thing you can do is open the lights a separate the ground wires. Right now when you hit the brakes you will short the 36-volts either to ground in one light or through a 12-volt filament to ground and the light will be very bright for a short time.

Grandpa Chas S.

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Yes Mik, if one goes out the circut is broken, but it is the only way I can come up with to avoid using a voltage reducer.
Chas, I was trying to draw it with seperate ground wires for the taillights and brakelights but I was in a hurry and it looked too ambiguous. So I made two seperate drawings, one for the taillights and one for the headlight with all the grounds seperated.
And, since I am going to start with a 24 volt system and then upgrade to 36v, I drew both ways. I think its correct now?
round24vseriestaillightheadlight2.gif
round36vseriestaillightheadlight1.gif

BUT, it seems like forcing all the current through each little bulb to get to the last bulb will cause the bulbs early in the circut to get hotter and burn out sooner?

JY

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

BUT, it seems like forcing all the current through each little bulb to get to the last bulb will cause the bulbs early in the circut to get hotter and burn out sooner?

This statement is false, the current is the same at any point in a series circuit, therefore the heat dissipation is the same for any given bulb regardless of it's location in the string, just like a string of old style Christmas lights.

I'm surprised in both diagrams you left out the high beam switch. Are relinquishing control? LOL

I think Diagram 2 is the one you want to use, correct? If so go for it as it should work fine.

Of course the easy way to go is to use a DC to DC converter like this one:

dc_to_dc_wiring_2.gif
        35 to 75 volts DC in, 12-volts DC out.

Grandpa Chas S.

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

:) If you run lites in series you have to have equal Watts per bulb then they will be equaly bright . If they are not a balanced load one bulb will burn hotter and burn out plus when a bulb burns out which one was it ? the lower watt bulb !!!!

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

strawhistle,

You are correct. What I said assumes all the bulbs are alike because of the tail lights being used in this application. And just like the old style Christmas lights if one goes out the entire string is out. I would use the DC to DC converter. There is more information on the DC to DC converter on the Download library.

Grandpa Chas S.

strawhistle
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

and with a DC-DC converter you can run any or all 12V loads as long as you get one large enough to carry the watts for any accessories you may have .

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

jyracing
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Ah ha! I knew it!!! Thanks Strawhistle.

Well Chas, what do you have to say for yourself? Assume? Ass (out of) you (and) me... Assyoume?

I clearly stated the wattage of the bulbs...

The bulbs are 10 watts (Red and Clear) and 3 watts (Amber).

Do you even bother to read my threads? :-( It takes me all night to type these with one finger. I have always had a secretary type for me so I never learned how to type.

Okay, I forgive you Chas. But I assume that you know, now you are just another pretty face to me? :)

I'm surprised in both diagrams you left out the high beam switch. Are relinquishing control? LOL

Excuse me but I am still in control...
The switch is still there. I just moved it (see new drawing, left side) to be able to control EVERYTHING. HAHAHA! Do I really need a 10w high beam? No.

Of course the easy way to go is to use a DC to DC converter like this one:

Easy way? I thought that the whole purpose of EVs was to conserve valuable resources? Natural and economical, e.g., my money? And after two weeks, you should know me well enough... I dont do things the easy way. :) 35 bucks on the lucent DC to DC seems like alot of money when I can just fanagle 99 cent lights and a few feet of wire in-series to get the same results. But, after I spend 3 hours a couple of times trying to find the one damn burned out bulb a few times I will probably buy the Lucent. Back in the day, I used to be good at switching out those damn xmas light bulbs to find the dead one, while it was on the tree. It always seemed like the burned out bulb was the last one on the string. Of course, I always started checking at the wrong end.

Speaking of your Lucent drawing, what is a Battery Minuse? Short for MINIMUM USE? LOL

Thank you for the link to the download library. I hadn't seen that yet. Lots of good reading there.

Now, if I start with 24 volt batteries and a 24 volt controller I ASSUME that I would need two of the Lucents since it is 36VDC to 75VDC. One for the 24 and one for the 36. There is probably one for 24VDC to 48VDC though.

Accept it Chas. Im starting with 24 volts then upgrading to 36. I want a baseline of 24v batteries with 24v controller and one 24v motor, then with two 24v motors. Then 36v batteries with 36v controller and one 24v motor, then two 24v motors. Then one 36v motor, then two 36v motors.

Before Strawhistle's comment, I was hoping I could mix and match bulb size. Now I have to rethink the problem. Thinking...

What about larger bulbs at the begiining (+ side) of the circut and smaller bulbs at the end? NO? Damn, I didn't think so.

So, just match all the bulbs? Simple enough.

Serious question... Theoretically, what about 10w and 10w in series and then the third light is in series but it is a cluster of parallel bulbs that combined, they equal 10w?

Like this...
wattageequality.gif

JY

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

jyracing
how much do you earn for 1/2 days work ?? that is a lot of dicking around !!! or you just trying to hasstle a fellow ???? your sematic would work if everything was egzact but they don't watch the filliment resistance that close and tickets for no lights will get you when you least expect it as for typing don't fire your secritary

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Retired. Monthly annuity. Low overhead. I am fortunate to be able to mess around almost all day. When I am not volunteering with and counseling at-risk teenagers, domestic violence and sexual assault victims, the terminally ill, and the elderly. I'm a Helper Bee.

No secretary anymore. My limited typing skills are getting worse by the day. My 15 and 17 year olds are teaching me textbonics so I can be "tight" and use my cell phone's text messaging function... I <3 U 2 ddy, thx, cuz, brb, UR on crk, mmk

I'm not worried about tickets. Tickets are just taxation for driving. A pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property to support the corrupt government. As long as the cops dont find my Uzi, crk, and hemp when they pull me over. I haven't had a ticket in 20 years. I present the illusion of legality to them and they leave me alone.

Hassle Chad? I hope he doesn't think that. If he does, then I appologize. Respectfully tease, banter, and have fun while learning? Its kind of an inside joke with him from my previous thread. I keep trying to reinvent the proverbial electrical wheel and Chas shows me why it wont work. Two weeks ago I wanted to just put a switch between the shorted out batteries and two motors an go. Right Chas? :) He challenges me to think beyond my current capabilities, no pun intended.

In my opinion, Chas is the smartest man in the room. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him and the rest of the people here. He has felt like a mentor to me since I came on here. Incredibly helpful, patient, and accepting of my electrical ignorance. I am the type of EVer that should go buy a new $5000 EV trike off the showroom floor with the extended warranty, but I would rather spend $10,000 and do it myself. I couldn't have made it this far without his help.

Wiping the brown stuff off of my nose...

I will do it egxactly, but I need to watch the filament resistance? LEDs?

well, I'm off to mess around in Vegas for 3 days

JY

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Hassle, where, what, why, I don't know.....

I thank you for all the kind words, I'm just trying to help you get a good start so you don't get frustrated and maybe just maybe you will build a really good EV. I might learn something along the way as well.

BTW, I did read your post but my short term aah (what you call it) isn't what it use to be.

Hope you have a good trip, just wish I could go too. Spin the big wheel and maybe you'll get lucky enough to buy that showroom EV and build one too.

Grandpa Chas S.

strawhistle
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

JY have fun and watch your back !!

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Thanks for the salutations guys. Had a great time and made a few bucks playing live poker, blackjack and believe it or not, roulette. Not enough to buy a showroon EV. I'm 3 hours from Vegas and go once a month or so. We should have a "V" convention in Vegas. We all can cruise the strip with our EV's.

I'm not sure what you can learn from me Chas, but I appreciate your optimism and help.

Today I mounted the 24V Controller CT-302S9 and started wiring it. The 125AH batteries are secured with aluminum sliding glass door frames and jumped together with daul aluminum house service wires. The 50 amp main switch is mounted with 12 Gauge copper wire from the battery + to the 8 Gauge copper wire fuse holder which is connected directly to the switch. I ran 12 gauge copper wire from the switch back to the controller. Tomorrow I hope to figure out how to mount the motors and wire them to the controller along with the kill switch brake lever and throttle control. The hard thing will be mounting the rear sprocket to the rear wheel hub that is not designed for a sprocket. Now that is going to be fustrating.

I could not find the right wattage clear bulbs to match the taillights, so I bought a 24 volt headlight tonight from TNC to run directly off the batteries...
24vHeadlight.jpg

Here is how I finally decided to run the lights...
00024vseriestaillightwithseperateheadlight3.gif

Comments? Suggestion? Or should we let this thread die and move on to bigger and better threads?

JY

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

I don't know where you got the aluminum house service wires since they have stopped using it a long time ago. I will give you a warning about using aluminum wires. As power in applied and removed for aluminum wires heat and cool which causes them to expand and contract. The reason they stopped using aluminum in house wires is because they get loose over time and cause fires. I would replace the aluminum wire with copper or you will be tightening these connections on a regular bases.

Grandpa Chas S.

P.S.
What can I learn from you, well everyone looks at things with a different perspective. If nothing else I see different ways to look at problems to help formulate new ideas. We all learn from each other regardless of our knowledge base. I work with computers for a living and can make them do just about anything I want but don't ask me to rebuild a transmission if you want it to work when it is back together, if it ever gets back together.

strawhistle
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Also aluminum ocidizes or (rusts ) the aluminum Oxide does not conduct very well ( copperoxide conducts almost as well as raw copper) and you have to put a grease ( noox )on the wire connection to prevent the corosion !!! ship the aluminum and use copper !!! there are many ways to skin a cat BUT why ?? no spell check

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

jyracing
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Okay guys, Im changing the darn aluminum wire. STOP HARRASSING ME It is only two little pieces, 18 inches long, between the two batteries. I was trying to save a pound or two of copper weight. I had a 100' feet or so about the thickness of your pinkie finger left over from when I built my own house I still live in 20 years ago. There has been 200' hanging from my house to the street pole for the last 20 years without any problems.
Now you have me paranoid
and thinking I should change that to 1000 pounds of 200' hanging span copper wire too.
I have 50' of copper wire about the size of your thumb that I will switch to tomorrow. I promise.
Are ewe mayking fun ov mi speling Straw? I spel gud
I can repair, rebuild, bodyoff restore anything on any car . I rebuilt my first 10 second 1/4 miler big block FORD engine back in high school. I was porting and polishing HEMI heads at 18 for KB. I was a heavy line mechanic for a Buick dealership back in the day. I'm best at old school pre75 engines with no computer. Transmissions are easy... bulletproof rebuilds, gears clutches, transbrakes, reverse valve bodies, etc.

Thats just mechanical stuff, but I cant even figure out how to upgrade the 200 pin RAM memory on my laptop.
Actually, I went back to College and received an AS in Computer Programming in '98. I used to be literate in 6 languages: Basic, Assembly, Colbalt, Fortrans, C and C++, and even dabbled in LISP, if I remember correctly, but I forgot them all.

I like your BBQ Grandpa.

For you...

 Type of     Battery   Amp  Motor  Current Range Top Speed
Electric Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
'72 Sebring CitiCar 8-6v 48 225 1KW? Sold 30 48 25 40
'08 Custom Trike 3-12v 36 125 700 Building Now ? ? ? ?
'96 Honda Magna ? ? ? Future Build ? ? ? ?
chas_stevenson
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Jy,

I see you put some of those computer skills to work. Looks go on you...

Grandpa Chas S.

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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

There has been 200' hanging from my house to the street pole for the last 20 years without any problems.

Aluminum can be used safely if special connectors are used. I believe most of the high-current wiring in my neighborhood is all aluminum, but all the household wiring is copper.

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

strawhistle
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

MR. JY no i am not making fun of you !! I need a secritary ! i can't read my own typing at times .
as for your aluminum service wire ,it can be used IF it terminates in a listed panel box AND the bare end in the connector is coated with NOOX a gray grease to pervent oxidation just take the cover off your panel and look at the main terminals for the grease later still no spell check

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

chas_stevenson
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Jy,

Dave has it right, the 200' of wire you have going to your house is fine the aluminum was stopped in the house internal wiring for outlets, light fixtures and the like. Large aluminum wire are still used for the main power wires so don't worry your house is OK. Sit back and relax.

Grandpa Chas S.

jyracing
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

I put every nail, screw, rebar, board, stud, top plate, girder, purloin brace, strap, plywood sheathing, drywall panel, cabinet, plumbing, sink, toilet, tub, light switch and fixture, window, shingle, etc. etc., and, aluminum service wire and copper wire in my house. And I used lots of NOOX, antioxidant, conductive grease in the main meter panel at the street and subpanel at my house. The aluminum wire terminates at the subpanel. Luckily, I only had to wire in parallel back then.
I was kidding about changing the service wire to Copper.

Hey Dave,
I dont want to waste your time... much. So I left out any double entendre, naughty words just for you.

But is Richard Cranium acceptable terminology?

Okay Straw, its agreed. We both need secreterries.

Thanks Chas. I was hoping that you didn't mind that I STOLE your code and edited it a bit. I figure that if I do what the smart people do, I might get smarter.

Okay, I'm relaxing

strawhistle
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Hay how can i do that ???

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

chas_stevenson
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Straw,

Which one do you want, and what do you want in it? BTW the headings and number of rows can be changed just let me know what you want.
1.

 Type of    Battery   Amp  Motor   Current  Range Top Speed
Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
                 
                 
                 

2.

 Type of    Battery   Amp  Motor   Current  Range Top Speed
Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
                 
                 
                 

3.

 Type of    Battery   Amp  Motor   Current  Range Top Speed
Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
                 
                 
                 

4.

 Type of    Battery   Amp  Motor   Current  Range Top Speed
Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
                 
                 
                 

5.

 Type of    Battery   Amp  Motor   Current  Range Top Speed
Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
                 
                 
                 

6.

 Type of    Battery   Amp  Motor   Current  Range Top Speed
Vehicle Voltage  Hours  Watts  Status   Miles   Kilometers   MPH   KPH 
                 
                 
                 

Grandpa Chas S.

jyracing
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Or a multiple variation of hex code colors :)

strawhistle
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

I was talking about those big smiley's !! and what is the pink user warning can't open file /// and all that giberish in my email from vis for voltage ???

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

chas_stevenson
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Straw,

There is a link on the EV DownLoad Library for the smilies, top link.

Jy,

I guess we can call you Rainbow Man.

Grandpa Chas S.

jyracing
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Re: 36 volt control system with 12 volt lighting system in serie

Psychedelic Man if you please?

Straw, I think they were doing maintenance last night. Either that or Chas was hammering out his Mad Scientist code

My next topic... Aerodynamics
I picked up a Yamaha G16 tinted, winged windshield for a song the other day. Its 1/4" thick (46"x 37") and quite heavy (20+ pounds). So much for weight reduction, but it may be a small sacrifice to make to avoid losing an eye and help reduce aerodynamic drag. I mounted it yesterday. I had to redesign and raise the the pointed nose of my trike 15" to mount the windshield to a functional level for the height of my head in the seat.

I read several V aerodynamic threads and a plethora of commercial website info. They got me to thinking. Pointed noses are not the most aerodynamic but are better than nothing. At least a pointed nose cuts through the air and directs the air up and over at a smooth angle. At a maximum speed of 20 mph, it may be a moot point...

The raindrop shape is the most aerodynamic.
000trikesideaerodynamic2jpg.jpg
With the windshield a true raindrop shape is out. But a 43" wide, 15" flat, raindrop nose way help?
000trikesidewindshieldnose2jpg.jpg

It must be better than a blunt flat face or just letting the air flow through the chassis and around me and over the body? Any thoughts?

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