I need information/suggestions regarding a good electric moped/bike to commute to work. I would travel no more than 10 miles per day. I live on a fairly steep hill, which is 4 city blocks long. The rest of my commute is on flat terrain.
I have been researching 500-600w bikes, but after reading the threads here, I am thinking that these might not meet my needs.
I am a frugal school employee, and would like something in a modest price range if it can be found.
Any help you can give me regarding suitable models that can be purchased from reputable US sources would be appreciated!
Thank you for your help :)
I commute 15 miles round trip, and for the past ten days or so (since I put it together), I've done the commute on a 500-600W bike (a pre-existing bike with a Crystalyte 408 and a controller rated for 720W). The commute is 7.5 miles, all flat with one steep hill, and I can say pretty certainly that a bike like mine will fit your needs - maybe not your wants, if you want to be able to sustain 25mph, climb hills at 20, or pull away from lights as fast as a car without pedaling, all of which are pretty easily possible with stronger motors like the Crystalyte 5-series.
I only point it out because I'm a frugal commuter who wanted something good enough to get me there as well as pedal bikes used to (I'm not pedaling right now due to injury), and this bike is easily enough. I won't try to advise you on purchasing, since I converted and as a bike mechanic and long-time pedal cyclist my perspective was different.
Thank you for your response! I appreciate it! You know how it is, you start researching, and you see the reviews of many that don't consider the smaller models worth purchasing. You have eased my mind regarding wattage requirements.
To clarify, my commute will be several short hops throughout the day, 1-2 miles each. I work for a school district, and the furthest building I will travel to is 5 miles, and I drive there about once a month. I have no speed needs, since I will be driving in a small town with stop signs ever block or two. Max weight the bike will need to carry (with cargo) will be about 140 lbs.
With the wattage issue out of the way, my next two issues are:
1. Lightweight vs. heavier bike (100-200 lbs.) since I am a petite person
2. Reliability - there are so many Chinese models out there that look great, but reviews caution me away from them. I have had bad luck trying to order an X-Treme cycle and I am now looking at other brands.
Again, thanks to anyone that has an opinion. I really appreciate the wealth of advice and information I have gleaned from this site. You guys rock!
Laurie,
To clarify, are you looking for something that can keep up with 35 mph traffic or something more in line with an electric assist bicycle?
In between the two. With stop-n-go in-town traffic, I will rarely need to travel over 20 mph. A pedal assist would be great, assuming the pedals actually were usable. I am thinking of a "scooter" style as opposed to a bicycle with a motor attached. I want something that I can use while wearing a business suit (including skirt).
I do not want to have to register it as a motorcycle (MI law limits mopeds to 30 mph or less).
I have been thinking about http://www.scootersnbikes.com/cs-600s.html
It looks like a Skeuter Z with some slight modifications.
Hi Laurie,
It's possible that you had contacted me about the X-Treme XB line of 600W bikes? I wanted to clarify that I stopped selling them not because of any known concerns - it was just that I decided I'd be able to better meet my own goals by just selling the XM-3000 and XM-3500.
If you didn't contact me about the XB line then ignore that first paragraph :) You might still want to consider the XB bikes. You can try www.basestationzero.com as a place to buy the XB from (they're in CA but that won't affect the shipping cost because everything comes from central Iowa). They have a 600W (XB-600) a 550W (XB-508) and a 500W (XB-500).
A word of warning - pedals on a "motor scooter" style bike (such as the XB line) are not very usable. This is because they are spread further apart than on a normal bike, combine this with the increased weight and your petite size and the pedals would only be suitable to use in a pinch and for a short distance.
However, an XB should give you plenty of range for round town riding. Gushar on this forum has an XB-600 and is happy with it - I'm sure he'd respond to a PM or email (sent via the forum).
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Thank you John, for the clarification of why you stopped selling them. Yes, you were one of 6 vendors that I tried to buy either th XB-500 or XB-508 from. I am in MI, like you.
I figured that the pedals were probably useless, and the sham claim that they eliminate the need for registration (at least in MI) isn't reason enough to put them on. I may still buy the X-Treme bike, but I have now expanded my search. The more research I do, the more complex and confusing the choices become.
Thus my posting here. Wondering what other's experiences were with a small EV.
Hi Laurie,
Not sure what you mean by a sham claim? These bikes do classify as "power assisted bicycles" not "mopeds" - they have less than 750 Watts and they have functioning pedals (to clarify - I mean the pedals aren't easy to use - not that they don't work).
The XB bikes don't have a VIN so I don't think they can be registered as a moped even if you wanted to.
What makes you believe that they must be registered?
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
My discussions with the friendly folk at MI SOS office let me know that it would need to be registered. And I didn't realize that they don't have a VIN. That could be problematic for registering them. According to SOS, ANYTHING with a motor must be registered as a motor vehicle if you wish to ride it on the road(with the exception of some mobility items). Go-peds and power assisted bikes fall in no-man's land and aren't street legal and can't be registered.
This is one of the docs that the SOS pointed me to regarding the ebikes.
The pertinent section says:
"Electric Bicycles
A bicycle equipped with either an electric or gasoline motor meets both the definition of Motor Vehicle, MCL 257.33, and Moped, MCL 257.32b, and is subject to state laws and local ordinances applicable to motor vehicles rather than those governing the use of bicycles. Some retailers and operators of electric bicycles are under the misconception that a federal law exempts these vehicles from applicable motor vehicle laws. They will cite Public Law 107-319, which makes low speed electric bicycles consumer products rather than motor vehicles solely for the purpose of manufacturing requirements and safety standards.
Contrary to the misconception of these retailers and operators, Public Law 107-319 has no effect on state laws or local ordinances governing the use of vehicles on public streets and highways. The federal law is very clear on this distinction."
Hi Laurie,
I remember getting absolutely swamped trying to filter through the sea of EVs out there. I sympathize with you!
I am in Colorado but have corresponded with several folks in MI with electric and gas scooters. They all simply mailed in a form, paid $5, I think, and received a 'motorized bicycle' sticker to put on the scoot to make them 'street legal'...so they say.
I did the same in Colorado.
John, do I remember correctly that you did this with your XM-2000???
Vinnie
Broomfield, CO
Laurie,
Yes, I was under the exact misconception that the document quotes - but I wouldn't call it a sham. This means that those electric bikes sold in several stores in Michigan (including many major retailers) can't be ridden anywhere except private land. Yet we see them ridden on the road all the time in my neighborhood.
If you want something that can be registered as a moped then I think you'll need to buy one of the moped class of electric motor scooters (the Z-20A, Nova Scooters, XM-3000, Zapino etc.) These will cost in the $2000 to $4000 range rather than the sub $1000 price of the lower powered electric assisted bikes. These more expensive bikes all have DOT approved equipment and a VIN, however to follow the letter of the law many of them would need to be restricted down to 30mph. Note however that many gas mopeds sold by dealers and registered as mopeds in Michigan have a top speed in excess of 30mph.
Vinnie,
No, I simply took my bill of sale with VIN on it to my local SOS (in Michigan we go to the secretary of state not the department of motor vehicles). I filled in the form given to me and they gave me a moped sticker for my XM-2000.
Please can you tell us more about these folks that got a "motorized bicycle sticker" (it would be great if you could persuade one of them to contact me so that I can try and understand that process).
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
The issue of registration often arises.
I didn't find it to big a deal to simply register the scooter/moped as a motorcycle. Then again, I had to in my state - mopeds must have pedals.
But one thing that did help is if it is 5 hp or less and doesn't require shifting gears, a MC rating on the drivers license is not required. The biggest misconception I run into is that a drivers license isn't needed.
Are drivers licenses not needed for mopeds in some states?
I did a bit more research on this and here's a link to a different law: http://www.bicycles-electric-bikes.com/rules_laws.htm I'm still trying to find a link to the original text. But here are a few snippets from that page (which presents itself as though it is from the original text). Highlighting is mine:
and
The above two quoted segment leads me to think that:
(a) the federal law for an electric assisted bicycle is applicable in Michigan and is not overridden by the state laws you quoted
(b) the federal law is intended to take into account traffic law as well as manufacturing issues
I'll try and find out more info - but alas, I'm not a lawyer and tracking this stuff down is not that easy. In the meantime I'd be interested to hear what your friendly SOS folks say.
Again, this is not an attempt to "con" anyone - but I do think the above gives a legitimate case to be able to ride such a bike on Michigan roads.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Hi Laurie,
I've ridden an Ego 2 LX as my daily commuter vehicle for over 3 years now. My commute is 4-10 miles and includes a hill about 3 blocks long. The scooter will go 23 mph tops, and has a useful range of about 20 miles. It comes with a VIN and is a licensed, registered vehicle here in Washington State. I highly recommend it as a commuter vehicle. I paid about $1600 3 years ago. I believe they're about $1900 new now, less used. They sometimes show up on ebay. Let me know if you have further questions.
tedd
Never mind - that above link I quoted "pastes together" two unrelated pieces of code. The first part defines a low-powered electric bicycle. The second part is from a proposed amendment - which apparently didn't pass.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John, thanks for your research. I agree, it is confusing. The more research I did on my own, the more confused I got. I do not think you or any others are intentionally misleading folk. I really think everyone is under the assumption that the federal law supersedes the posted docs are accurate. Thus, my call to SOS.
I put in another call to them today asking them for more justification for their response.
I haven't checked my email or answering machine, if they replied I will post their response.
Thanks everybody for your responses. I didn't mean to cause trouble, only to try to buy a bike and make sure I can legally ride it.
You guys rock :)
OK,
What I have so far - Some is my research and most came from my local SOS.
1. From the MSP (Michigan State Police) update I linked previously:
Electric Bicycles and Other Non-Traditional Mopeds
Mopeds are defined by MCL 257.32b as two- or three-wheeled vehicles with a motor (gasoline or electric) that does not exceed 50 cc (not applicable to electric motors), produces 2.0 brake horsepower (1500 watts) or less, is not capable of traveling faster than 30 mph on a level surface, and does not require the operator to shift gears. The law does not prohibit gear shifting mechanisms. Any vehicle with two or three wheels that exceeds these criteria becomes a motorcycle if equipped with a saddle or seat, or an off-road vehicle if not so equipped. Any vehicle that meets the definition can be registered with the Secretary of State (SOS) and legally operated on a street if it possesses all of the required equipment and if a TR-54 form is completed by a police officer.
2. The commonly referenced law HR 727 (the popular - laminate me and carry me at all times document) is indeed only applicable to consumer law and safety. Here and here are links that help further clarify.
3. (related but not necessarily relevant to this discussion) From the same MSP field update document
Gopeds and Pocket Bikes
With warmer weather approaching, motorized scooters (gopeds) and miniature motorcycles (pocket bikes) are once again becoming an issue on Michigan roads. Gopeds generally meet the definition of moped under MCL 257.32b, but are not usually equipped as required for registration by the Secretary of State. Some pocket bikes also meet the definition of moped, but most exceed the limits of 2.0 hp, 50cc piston displacement, or 30 mph top speed. For electric scooters, 2.0 hp is equal to 1500 watts and the 50cc piston displacement is irrelevant, as a vehicle without a piston cannot exceed 50cc piston displacement. Those gopeds and pocket bikes that exceed any of these limits become motorcycles under MCL 257.31 if they have a saddle or seat, or off-road vehicles under MCL 324.81101(m). Regardless of which of the above classifications are met, gopeds and pocket bikes are motor vehicles under MCL 257.33 and subject to all applicable traffic laws. Unless legally registered, they are not legal for use on roads in Michigan, and are never legal for use on sidewalks. Contact the Vehicle Code Unit for additional information.
4. Other requirements for licensing a moped in MI
It must have a VIN, headlight, tail light, turn signals, horn, mirror, and handlebars 15 inches above the seat.
5. Difference between moped and motorcycle
(I LOVE the typo - highlighted)
A moped has less than 50 cc engine displacement, less than 2 brake horsepower, and is capable of no more than 30 mph on a level service. If it does not meet all three of the listed requirements, it is considered a motorcycle. A scooter may be either a moped or a motorcycle depending on its size. Riding a motorcycle requires a CY endorsement on your Michigan license. A properly registered moped can be ridden on the street by any licensed driver or anyone 15 years of age or older with a moped license.
If I get any more info, I will post it.
I guess in the state of the Big Three you can't expect things to be easy... :(
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
LOL - agreed.
I think that experience here has taught me that I SHOULD have just waited until I got a bike, tried to register it as a moped and hoped for the best. There probably ARE lots of bikes that don't qualify running around with moped stickers in MI.
This is my first ebike ever, and I had read horror stories about people buying them and THEN finding out they weren't legal to ride (kinda like Segway's right now).
Oh, well - I'm still on a quest for the perfect bike for me. The advice here has been very helpful - as has a search of the forum since I'm not the first person to ask for help.
The X-Treme bikes are on my short list, as is the Skeuter, and now I'm off to research the one Tedd posted.
Thanks again to everyone for your help! I will pop back and let you know what I get. :)
Just a quick post to update everyone on my final purchase. I did buy a Chinese 600w scooter (TD681Z) which arrived in perfect shape except for one stripped bolt on the front fork. DH replaced it, and I am up and running. The instruction manual was horrendous (thanks to all that warned me about this) but DH was able to put it together in about an hour, including tire inflation and bolt/nut/screw inspections.
It tops out at 32 mph, 18 mph going up a 10% grade. I have taken it 15 miles in a stretch, and the battery meter is still at 75% ???
Everyone's advice here was so helpful. Thank you John for warning me about missing VINs. I was able to get metal "ID" numbers put on the bike before it was shipped from the vendor. I had no trouble registering it as a moped in MI. Thanks to Tedd for letting me know that 600w was plenty of bike for my needs.
Everyone here was so helpful and encouraging, you are wonderful for helping a complete n00b buy her first ebike.
