I can't decide....

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shutrbug
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I can't decide....

I can't decide if I should get an electric scooter (like an eGo Cycle per my previous post, or a Zapino) or not, and I'm hoping the community here can help me with my thought process. I would use it for my 2.5 mile commute to work through residential neighborhoods and for grocery shopping. The grocery store is about three miles away and 400 feet lower in altitude than my house. I still need a car for other purposes, like going to play golf and skiing, etc. Here are the pros and cons of the scooter as I see it:

Pros:
* Greatly reduced CO2 emissions and global warming. (If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.)
* Reduced dependence on foreign oil. This is important to me.
* A lot more fun than driving to work.
* They're a cool toy for a gadget addict like me. :)

Cons:
* I'm not convinced that I'll save money at all compared to driving. Based on what I've read here, the scooters imported today from China just aren't that reliable. And the batteries have limited life and are expensive to replace when worn out.
* It sounds like riding in the rain is not advisable for the bike (let alone for the rider). I keep reading reports of electical problems after rain. I live in California, and when it rains in the winter it would probably be too cold anyway. But it's only a few months a year that it rains.
* Battery performance is greatly reduced in cold weather.
* The bike locker that I have at work doesn't have an electrical outlet. There's only one outlet that I might be able to use and it's not under cover in the event of rain.
* Financial stability of the importers and quality control is marginal at best. I sure would like to get an electric Honda scooter if and when they are released.

I'd appreciate the thoughts of those who have made the plunge already. I'm sure they'll help me decide. At first I had my eye on a eGo Cycle. Then I tried bigger scooters at Greenemotor (rebadged Erato scooters?) and enjoyed the higher performance and range, but am a little put off by the higher price, which probably will not be paid back with the limited use that it would likely get by me. I keep going mentally around and around in circles!

Mik
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Re: I can't decide....

In my opinion, a bicycle would be the optimal solution for your circumstances.

Mr. Mik

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There is always a way if there is no other way!

andrew
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Re: I can't decide....

* I'm not convinced that I'll save money at all compared to driving.

This is a common manufacturer claim. It's really just not true when you factor in everything. Though, overall costs are becoming more comparable with rising fuel prices, and better batteries for EVs. It's the quality and component life that really sets the EVs back now. We need one of the big name manufacturers to make an EV, and sell it affordably. On a positive note, EVs are much easier and cleaner to work on then engines and transmissions.

* It sounds like riding in the rain is not advisable for the bike

I think it really depends on what you are riding in the rain. For example, I did a lot of work on my little scooter, and corrosion proofed everything. The controller is fully potted. I have no doubt I could ride it completely immersed in water without any harm. The components I would be worried about are the controller, charger, and DC-DC converter. Also, any exposed terminals or wiring would need to be coated with an anti-corrosion compound. And, any switches may help having some oil applied to them.

I keep going mentally around and around in circles!

I usually have this experience when there isn't any appealing option. Who said you have to get an electric scooter? I'd say, just gather information, then trust your gut feeling whether to go electric or not. Maybe there's something better on the market or upcoming that you haven't had a chance to look at.

[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri

dogman
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Re: I can't decide....

I did very long calculations for my current ICE cars, a conversion of one of those, a bike like a vectrix, various e scooters, ICE bikes and scooters, and electric bikes. I now own two electric bikes. Because of easy interchangeabiltiy of bike parts, and hub kit components, as opposed to keeping an e scooter running, plus not having to register and insure, made the e bike come in at about 6 or 7 cents a mile. All other options came in at around 25-35 cents a mile. As I made the calculations I really tried to include every expense, just about down to the air in the tires. With your 400 foot climb home, you will need to peadle some to go up it, so a bike or trike will do your needs very well, and do your pysical condition worlds of good. Only ebikers really appreciate how much we still push on the peadles, while we go 10 times further than we would have. If you want to haul a lot of groceries, a trike like mine with perhaps a bit more battery, lithium or sla would work good. If each load is smaller, I find I can carry an awful lot in a messenger bag, very comfortably. See my bikes in the photo section for how do do it cheap. Brushed hubs do really well on hills. Bear in mind, that every day you put off having to do an expensive repair or replacement of the car is saving you a fortune. If my ICE car is 15 bucks a day, and the e bike is 2 bucks, that savings adds up fast, plus, in a way, you can add another 15 bucks since you are one day further before you spend a fortune on a new engine.

Be the pack leader.
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shutrbug
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Re: I can't decide....

In my opinion, a bicycle would be the optimal solution for your circumstances.

I have biked to work, but I do get sweaty because I can't seem to ride slowly, and carrying a couple of gallons of milk plus groceries up the 400' hill would be pretty tough, even though it's gradual.

I usually have this experience when there isn't any appealing option. Who said you have to get an electric scooter? I'd say, just gather information, then trust your gut feeling whether to go electric or not. Maybe there's something better on the market or upcoming that you haven't had a chance to look at.

I think you're right. My ultimate goal is to get a plug-in hybrid, once they become affordable.

I did very long calculations for my current ICE cars, a conversion of one of those, a bike like a vectrix, various e scooters, ICE bikes and scooters, and electric bikes. I now own two electric bikes.

Good idea. I should look at an electric bike more seriously.

Thanks, all, for the advice. Now I've got a lot more to think about.

reikiman
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Re: I can't decide....

Your comment on QA made me think of this video I just posted elsewhere

http://www.7gen.com/website/electric-motion-systems/24580-e-testing-and-quality-assurance

Anyway.. winter in northern california. It's amazing how much I've forgotten what 'cold' really is and describe our winters as cold. Some of the people on this forum keep e-bicycling through real winters that have snow on the ground and everything. I've forgotten what real winters are like but the vague memories I have left from having lived through 30 of those winters gives me huge appreciation of the dedication of those who keep riding through the winter.

I have an EVT 4000 .. and it's the moral equivalent of the greenemotor scooters (which I've looked at) and it is perfectly fine in the rain. The electronics are pretty well sealed and survive being rained on. But these scooters are generally thought to not handle hills very well. A scooter which is known to handle hills VERY well (this from a friend in San Francisco who owns one) is the Oxygen Lepton. You can buy those from either Electric Motorsport or Thundersky Motors (both in the bay area).

You say it's gonna be hard to arrange to charge at work. This is a red flag in my mind. Lead-acid batteries do not do well if left partly uncharged for long periods, and it's high priority to charge lead acid batteries soon after every use. Other battery chemistries are less susceptible to this and you will do well to buy a vehicle that uses li-ION or NiMH batteries. Or to arrange with your work to charge the bike during the day. This is highly recommended anyway because it helps with range issues to charge during the day.

Alias
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Re: I can't decide....

I have sort of a silly question??
Okay, you know the portable battery chargers that you can get for $50-$100 at an auto parts store??
Would you be able to use one of those for charging a scooter?? What I am getting at is, if this would work (safely);

you could bring in your bike or scooter indoors if your work allows such things.
Then again, I don't know and that's why I am asking a silly question :)

shutrbug
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Re: I can't decide....

Your comment on QA made me think of this video I just posted elsewhere

http://www.7gen.com/website/electric-motion-systems/24580-e-testing-and-quality-assurance

(snip)

You say it's gonna be hard to arrange to charge at work. This is a red flag in my mind. Lead-acid batteries do not do well if left partly uncharged for long periods, and it's high priority to charge lead acid batteries soon after every use. Other battery chemistries are less susceptible to this and you will do well to buy a vehicle that uses li-ION or NiMH batteries. Or to arrange with your work to charge the bike during the day. This is highly recommended anyway because it helps with range issues to charge during the day.

I've been thinking more seriously about an electric bike because my commute is so short. I test rode some bikes with Rob at Electro Ride Bikes and Scooters in Milpitas and I think it was the Crystalite or Go-Hub models that had the battery pack that slid off the rack for easy recharging. That would work in that I could bring in the pack during the day and leave my bike in the locker. I'd like to get a recumbent, but the lockers are too short for anything but standard road and mountain bikes.

scott_in_ct
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Re: I can't decide....

I just bought a used eGo Cycle (for $850) to commute to the train station- 4 miles each way. Today was my first attempt, and it was great. After I arrived at the station, my meter showed full. An eGo Cycle can go 15 miles at the very least, and is pretty quick and does hills just fine. It's supposed to top out at 25 miles, if you're very frugal with your speed.

If your commute is only 2.5 miles each way, you should have no problem- even if only charging overnight.

Yesterday, I ventured out to Home Depot and took a very alternate route that took me up long hills. The total trip was around 15 miles and on the way back, it was pretty slow up the hills and I was concerned, but it did make it back. Did make me wish I'd had brought my charging cord along with me. The eGo has a built-in charger and only requires one of those standard desktop computer cords to plug in.

I found mine on Craigslist and had to drive a couple of hours to get it, but new, they're like $1400 plus tax.

I definitely recommend the eGo Cycle!

boyelectric
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Re: I can't decide....

Yeah, I had similar issues... I went with a Crystalyte hub and battery on a bike. I can leave the bike and lug the battery upstairs to charge in the apartment. For waterproofing, I just got some CorrosionX spray and doused my hub, etc.

I also HAD a xb600, but it wasn't able to handle the hills in Seattle. Now, people here are able to demonstrate modifications that would have let me run it easily, so I wish I still had it... except for the fact that I would have had to charge it at work, OR lug the (very heavy) battery pack upstairs to the apartment. I would have loved to have the XB600 in a retro look; I would have made that work 'somehow' ;)

necpenguin
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Re: I can't decide....

Hope no one minds if I piggyback onto this thread - I also can't decide:
I'm torn between 2 scooters, and hope some of you can offer more insight. I'm about as newbie as they come.
The XM-3000 and the EVT 168:
Looks: definitely the EVT - I love that Vespa-style look. I really don't like the look of the XM, but could live with it
Price: XM-3000 - $2550, EVT 168 $3000 (don't know if that includes taxes, licensing, etc. Probably not)
Speed/Power: The EVT says it tops out around 30 mph, the XM-3000 around 40-43. A scooter than can go close to 45mph is going to be a lot more useful to me.
Quality of components: This is where I need help. The EVT 168 is made in Taiwan, which generally has a better reputation than Chinese scooters, like the XM. Can anyone tell me if they have a sense of one being a better quality scooter than the other? By better quality, I mean sturdier parts, workmanship, durability. etc.

And to confuse matters, I was at my local electric scooter store last week (Sound Speed) and they had just gotten in an EVT with lithium batteries. 168 body, $4200. That's definitely more than I was looking to pay, but I'd consider it if it's of superior quality and has the speed requirements. Anyone know about this bike? Have an idea how fast it will go?
Thanks in advance for your advice! - Jill

scott_in_ct
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Re: I can't decide....

I looked into the EVT, as well, but saw that there were lots of problems. People had just spent $3500 on something that sat in the garage with broken controllers for months awaiting replacements.

Definitely, read the forums here on the various options. I decided to punt and buy a used eGo Cycle, while waiting for something else to come along, that has full suspension. ;^)

Scott

necpenguin
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Re: I can't decide....

Was that from the EVTs or EVT America bikes? (so confusing that there are 2 companies with the same name! Took me a while to figure it out)
I would LOVE to buy something used. I've seen one EVT 168 on Craigslist here and the guy never emailed me back. He had probably sold it, but still... Any suggestions on where to find used bikes?

reikiman
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Re: I can't decide....

Uh, Scott, is the 'EVT' you're referring to the EVT America Z/R-20 ?? There's a chance for confusing the EVT in EVT America with the EVT who makes the EVT-168.

The EVT-168 is made by EVT of Taiwan. EVT America used to be a distributor for EVT Taiwan scooters, hence their name. EVT America is now distributing their own scooter design, the Z/R-20 and soon Z/R-30. I am not 100% sure but think that because they're distributing their own scooter that EVT Taiwan has cut them off from distributing EVT 168/4000 scooters.

When the Z/R-20's started being delivered earlier this year there were definitely lots of problems with them. There's lots of documentation of problems on this here forum, and there's a whole forum area dedicated to their scooters. EVT America just sent out some emails talking of the Z/R-30 scooters and they claim to have fixed or addressed all the problems. Hopefully they did, and FWIW they'll begin selling it as promised in September.

As for the original question-- Vespa-like scooters.

The R-30 is in this style. So is the Zapino, and I believe the 2008 Zapino has been getting very positive experience from users.

The EVT 168 is absolutely a 30 miles/hr vehicle (I have an EVT 4000, and they're the same under the covers).

scott_in_ct
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Re: I can't decide....

It's good to hear that there are some good ones out there. Although I'm a bit loathe to buy anything from ZapWorld! I read some horror stories about them where all of these people signed up to be dealers of their electric cars. Zap was happy to receive the down payments for cars but then never delivered the cars, and ignored their calls.. all this going on for months... all the while going on marketing and trade shows touting their "green" cars that were just about to arrive in dealers.....

Anyway, glad to hear people are liking the Zapino, because it does look nice.

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