4000w model from Mountain Chen?

your link did not work. I found this one to a webpage in Spanish.
MOTOR : 4.0 KW (MOTOR SIN ESCOBILLAS)

http://www.vehiculosconingenio.com/index.php?s=fichaproducto&idproductos=336

I fixed the link above ...

It refers to this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2AUVV47Dys ... one thing I find concerning in the video is a reference to scalar waves ..

Here's another you tube of the first bike: http://youtube.com/watch?v=x2AUVV47Dys - it definitely has shots of Chen's bike and I assume that Chen has a higher rated winding for the same casing.

The one Robert links too seems to be a different bike altogether - and it's a 48V bike.

As far as power goes: Remember though that 4000W relates to the motor rating, not the power output. The power output is still controlled by the voltage and the maximum amperage of the controller - so, if you don't upgrade those then you'll still have very similar performing bikes. The motor rating is the power that the motor can handle 24/7 without being over spec. You can safely run an electric motor at higher than it's rating for short periods - especially if it's well cooled. Folks doing their own EV conversions nearly always run their motors over spec - sometimes by as much as 100%.

The XM-3500Li has 60V and I believe the maximum controller amperage is 80A which gives 4800W peak power. I couldn't find a mention of peak amperage or peak power for the bike scott found.

Both the XM-2000 and the XM-3000 have 60V and a 55A max controller amperage to give 3300W peak power. The 2000 has a 2500W motor, the 3000 has a 3000W motor - but they both deliver the same peak power.

Generally speaking a larger motor is better - at the expense of weight and cost. However, don't assume that a bike with a 4000W motor is 15% more powerful than a bike with a 3500W motor.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see later models of the XM-3500Li become the XM-4000Li - just like we saw the XM-2000 "grow" into the XM-3000.

But, good find! It looks like a great bike.

Yes,this is our spainish exclusive who just place 200pcs in one order.

4000W just want to show on EEC, actually is 3500W,we keep some space on EEC paper for next year 72V system development.so that we don't need to test again !

If upgrade to be 72V system,it would be real 4000W...

XM3500li is quite difference on performance compare with XM3000.....Unbeliable powerful on long slope !

We are on heavy duty for this models...The presentation to the Spain, Portugal, Belgium and France Markets is boiling up.

The expectations have been overcome...Test results has been a success and, as sooner as posible, We´ll publish the scores to the worldwide.

The cooperation with Mountain Chen is very close for specifications and the results are the Must for the Electric Scooters World

EVs aren't the Future...They are a RealThing as Customers are showing at http://scooterselectricos.eburra.es

The Re-Evolution Just Starting-up!!!!!!!!!!!

The XM-2000 and XM-3000 use the same controller? How do you know the voltage limit on it?

The hub motor's big disadvantage is it has no good way to be cooled. I doubt you'd be able to get 55mph our of the XM-3000 motor without it overheating. Has anyone looked into putting a 3000w motor in the front too? The electronics to drive it are probably well beyond our scope.

The XM-2000 and XM-3000 use the same controller? How do you know the voltage limit on it?

I don't think I said that did I? AFAIK, they're not the same controller (the new one has the much talked about but not enabled regen - the old one didn't have that). They do seem to be set up with similar power output capabilities though.

I don't know the voltage limit but my PakTrakr tells me maximum current. I'm just using pack voltage. I think that's reasonable as with a PWM controller doesn't the voltage stay at the max voltage and it's altering the duty cycle that regulates the current flowing? This is just a simplified calculation for purposes of comparison - it's not meant to model things accurately.

The motor rating is the power that the motor can handle 24/7 without being over spec.

Unsubstantiated speculation, there is no standardization of engineering specifications for duty rating being provided by the "assemblers" of these chinese machines, just as there are no schematics or detailed motor or controller manuals.

The wattage rating the "assembler" provides is just that, provided by the assembler, not the motor manufacturer.

The "assembler" may have performed some limited testing and found that the 2400 watt constant duty motor he selected for testing was suitable in "his" test scenario for use at wattages up to 3,000 intermittent. One does not know what ambient air temps, terrain, gross weights or avg max speeds "he" intended for the completed unit to conform to.

At best the "constant duty" wattage of the XM-3000 24x7 is only about 2400 watts. Intermittently you can demand more.

If you run it at 3,000 watts 24x7 it will last about 8x1.

If you run it on a dynamometer at a full battery charge loaded voltage drop of 12.8 volts per battery (silicone) at 55 amp loading it will last about 90 minutes.

Both the XM-2000 and the XM-3000 have 60V and a 55A max controller amperage to give 3300W peak power. The 2000 has a 2500W motor, the 3000 has a 3000W motor - but they both deliver the same peak power.

The XM-2000 has a 2250 watt motor and a controller set at 46 amps that can intermittently peak 48. Peak wattage on the XM-2000 is 3,072 watts.

Peak wattage on charged batteries at full load is 3,520 for the XM-3000, which drops to 3,245 at end of charge full loading.

The motors and controllers could not be more different in every regard, there is no comparison between them. The XM-3000 motor achieves much better efficiencies due to controller design, and it achieves better top speeds and acceleration due to the much larger diameter of the motor.

The XM-3000 motor was originally specified to be a 3,500 watt motor by the assembler, nothing of note within the motor model has been altered, except for X-Treme's advertising specs.

Why the change from 3,500 to 3,000 in the specs ?

If the XM-3000 were the XM-3500 then XM-3500 would have to be called by it's real name, XM-4000, cause that's what it really is at peak power levels.

If it were called the XM-4000, then that would infer it may be over 5 hp and that changes everything, and then they can't import it, not cheaply.

So we will all pretend that the XM-3500LI is the Federally mandated under 5 hp bike that it in reality it probably is not.

The XM-2000 and XM-3000 controllers could not be more different.

The 2000 uses a half height mini controller card, the case is twice the required size to house the card.

The XM-3000 uses two sets of 15 FETS in parallel for 30 total, each rated at 80 amps and 300 watts max.

The XM-3000 controller has a max continous rating of 160 amps at 60 volts, although you better substantially increase cooling if you go there.

It's design has a maximum wattage dissipation of 9,000 watts (27,000 watts for a few seconds), again, better find a way to cool it.

It has a maximum votage rating of 100 volts, but you better not take it over 80, there are components in that controller that pop at a little over 80, so one can safely add one more battery and go 72 volts (78.6 volts fully charged), but make sure you don't turn the key on with the charger plugged in or it is EVT America all over again (88.8 - 90 volts under charging conditions).

At 55 amps the XM-3000 controller should last a long time, it is very over-designed for the application it has been placed in.

If one adds a 6'th battery, you may want to change out resistor 16 in the controller to up the low voltage protection, not needed to run, but needed to prevent battery damage. If you watch the pack and don't run it dead (<63 volts under load), you can get away with skipping this.

0.70k +/- is for 72 volt setups
0.95k is for 60 volt setups
2.0k is for 48 volt setups

Res 16 is located 4 inches to the left of the throttle wires and just to the right of a small capacitor and directly below an 8 legged op-amp chip marked on the board as IC1.

Professional guy,looks like Tracy is coming back !

Well, I guess the 72V mod is out of the bag. You'll get an extra 5mph top speed out of it.

Well, I guess the 72V mod is out of the bag. You'll get an extra 5mph top speed out of it.

Buzzzz, wrong, and I am not Tracy thank you

singlow is right (of course you don't need me to tell you that) - usually, on electric motors built for other uses by manufacturers of "good pedigree" the motor rating is supposed to be the amount the motor can handle without overheating. Well, that's my understanding I'm sure sweet chariot will put me right. There's nothing enforcing this. But, my point was really more about the fact that you don't really want to look at that figure when considering peak power. But, not-tracy pointed that out as well (although all the rest of the fairy story he paints is just about as "unsubstantiated" as it comes).

Chen, even if it's not Tracy, I don't know whether I'd call singlow or Tracy "professional". "knowledgeable" yes. "smart" yes. "egocentric" maybe....

I beg your pardon, I am not wrong, isn't it possible results may vary? Everyone else can do it and report their results. Here is the wiring diagram:

Sparc5, have you not a camera?

Here you can see I'm not just BS'ing :)

It also should be noted, you can't trust the fuel gauge anymore. Empty might have been ~60V before, but now empty is ~72V.

Today I bought a 60V 20Ah Headway lithium pack. I'll use a diode from the lead pack to the LiFePO4 pack, so that the lead pack can charge the lithium pack, but not the other way around. When the voltage drops on the lithium pack, the SLA adds to the power. Ideally I'd run off lithium for all my short trips, that way my batteries should last thousands of charges. If I can get by on a 20AHr pack, I'll loose the lead all together to lighten the load.

Hi Scott,

That's my cheap jumpstarter/air compressor/flashlight thingie. I have all those batteries around because my chargers have a desulfication mode and I'm trying to revive them from the dead.

Yes it's absolutely possible to make a range extender. A regular car alternator could put out 64V if spun fast enough. It has a voltage regulator in it to keep the voltage down, if you replace the components on the voltage regulator (bigger rectifier diodes, and a resistor to fool the the regulator into thinking it hasn't reached the usual 14.5V target until it hits ~64V. You'll need a strong alternator capable of 3000W+ and a 7HP+ motor or I fear the alternator's stator windings will burn out.

The more surefire way (more expensive more lossy) to do it is to use a commercial 120V 3500W minimum generator, connect it to a autotransformer to put out a max voltage well below your battery's fully charged voltage, then use an diode rectifier with ratings way beyond what you'll need. Of course you will be string charging, and want to keep an eye on your battery voltages. If your pack is way unbalanced, you'll need to address that with current shunts or a batteq.

Of course you'll need a place to put it. :) A slicker idea is to have a pusher trailer, while running your scooter in regen mode!

I dream of making a clear acrylic shell that sits on the scooter to protect you from the elements. I dream of rewinding the motor to accept 80A, and putting on a larger tire to convert that new torque into speed, but probably would have to lengthen the swingarm to accommodate the new tire size. Do they even make a larger tire that can fit on this hub??? For now I'm working on a BMS, and new batteries to lengthen my short distance driving capabilities. I can tell already this will be an expensive new hobby. :-) Via V is for Voltage

Disclaimer: Tracy over at voltsrider.com is having a fit over there because I didn't credit him for the wiring diagram. There is no credit to myself for inventing this mod since singlow was the one to announce it. Contrary to what Tracy might believe, he didn't invent wiring batteries in series, that's all my diagram shows. To his credit what he did teach me is that it can be modded to 72V, the current shunt and LVD resistor in the controller should to be modified to protect your batteries from overdischarge and your motor from overheating respectively. I didn't include these in my posts because they were his ideas and you can read about them in the posts above mine or elsewhere. I don't take credit for other people's research, but it doesn't stop him from smearing my name.

I dream of making a clear acrylic shell that sits on the scooter to protect you from the elements.

Do you mean something like this:-

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4357-last-vetter-fairing

It's not just for protecting you from the elements, but also to make the vehicle more efficient. Vetter has a DVD on his web site that goes into more detail what he's after but in the early 80's he ran a fuel efficiency contest with people building similar fairings and getting up to 470 miles/gallon with regular bikes (sorta) on regular roads.

"Clear" -- Can you say greenhouse? Are you sure you want 'clear'? Yeah you want the driver to be able to see, but you don't want to burn up. Plus the fairing can also improve visibility of the bike and add to safety. But a clear fairing wouldn't do this.

In any case Vetter has some very detailed writeups of how he's designing a fairing for a Honda Helix, but what he's doing could be adapted to, say, an XM-3000 (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)..

ROFL !!!!!!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=40096462

Yes! That's what I'm talking about!! Any chance we can mod our frames for that? Probably too small.

Ok here is the 72V update after a month or so driving around with it. Everything works great. No problems, actually happy that the motor/controller run cooler to the touch under normal operations.

Today I finally got around to clocking it with a GPS. I learned a little trick, if you duck your head down and sit on the back seat, you dramatically cut wind resistance. I held the cell phone in one hand and tried to tape it, resulting in awful video quality. I was way too scared to hold on with one hand and film with the other at 56 MPH!!!!

Just tried to reproduce the results. I tucked myself lower to the handlebars, bum far back on the passenger seat, legs tucked in away from the outside. This time got 63MPH according the the GPS!!! I can't believe it! Some day I'll get around to measuring the unloaded center stand rpms to see what the max speed really is.
Conditions: flat paved road, no wind, trees on both sides.

Take a look at
Speed Versus Power For Different Cycle Types (7gen.com) ... it's a chart of power required to go various speeds AND the various speeds achieved at a given power. It was measured using bicycles of different design including full fairing'd velomobiles.

That ecomobile you're ROFLING about is exactly the sort of design Craig Vetter is talking about.

Yet another interesting link from Mr. Herron. :) What a difference faring makes.

Today I contribute this to the V group. I suspected my last GPS reading was erroneous, so first thing I did when I got up this morning was test what the maximum unloaded speed is for the wheel. Sorry I mumble a lot in this video, but there is useful data. Video quality is far superior to the last post.

Unloaded XM-3000 hub motor speed I calculate to be @ 72V I calculate to be 58.4mph so my GPS reading of 56mph is probably spot on.

I love the audio speedometer... :-)

"I love the audio speedometer."

I do too. But why do you think an unloaded RPM measurement has anything to do with a loaded speed of the bike? Perhaps I am missing something. When you load the bike you are adding about 500 pounds to that motor. In a friction free world that may not make a difference, but in a world where tire to road friction and bearing friction are both based on the total weight (not to mention of friction added by the front tire, and any drag on the brakes), the unloaded speed is relatively irrelevant.

Did you measure a loaded RPM as some point and I missed it? Or are you just assuming the 2 MPH difference is due to the friction?

Hey TeachSkeptic,

I was measuring the unloaded speed to test my hypothesis that I had a false (too high) GPS reading of loaded speed taken the night before. The testing confirmed that hypothesis.

I suspect the 2MPH difference is mostly due to wind resistance- tire/break/bearings frictional losses are a continuous source of drag, but smaller than wind resistance at that speed. I know if I sit upright on the scooter it's top speed is around 49mph with the 72v mod. There is the unanswered question, what is the limiting factor of the unloaded RPMs? It was interesting that the bump from 60V to 72V gave a higher unloaded RPM count. That gives evidence that the controller's switching speed isn't the limiting factor. It's also interesting the scooter is not being limited by the controller since I never reach it's max rpms while loaded. That gives evidence the top speed is limited by torque (see amps) aka resistance of the windings in the motor.

If/when my motor gives out I'll rewind to give it more torque, and use a larger tire (possibly with larger swing arm) so it translates into more speed since I can't up the voltage any higher on the stock controller*. I'm weary of going any faster then 50mph on that scooter. Any wobble scares the living daylights out of me!

To those who wonder why I just didn't tap into a hall sensor in the scooter to get RPMs, it's because I haven't done the work yet to figure out how many pulses there are per RPM. The GreenBMS will use this method to display speed, so if anyone can tell me, I'd be delighted to learn.

*Voltage limit of controller provided by USATracy.

Is it possible to upgrade the 3500 watt to the 4000 watt for those that have a 3500 and would like to upgrade? I also wonder what parts would be involved and the associated costs. I can swap parts and even perform minor electrical (soldering, wiring, etc.) However, I'm not an Electrical Enginneer, so for me to do it, it can not get too complicated (electrically speaking.)