3000W scooter falling apart after only 350km !!!

riekiman wrote:

To someone who wants to buy an XM-3000 (or whatever) don't you want to know that it's a proper XM-3000?...

Maybe trademark vs factory is related to what I've been trying to come to grips with... Bear with me as I try to think it through.

The trademark brings some assurance of consistency of product (leaving aside John's batch-to-batch variation).
Differing trademarks on two different M Chen scooters are a sign that the parts used might be different because the different importers could be reselling different models. There appears to be no way of divining whether the components are different between (apparently) corresponding models carrying different trademarks, short of buying one of each and dissecting them.

Factory of origin, though, seems to drive the quality of the assembly and of the design across all trademarks based on the same base model, since one importer is not likely to be able to cajole M Chen (not trying to pick on you, Mr. Chen) to make their scooters "better" than those he sells to someone else.

So the impact on quality of an "improper" XM-3000 depends on how fake it is... Different factory? or different importer's stickers?

And to bring the discussion back to lone_rider's initial laments, it may be that the quality issues he sees are factory-of-origin based issues that may be expected to be seen in other scooters from the same factory -- in which case the concern might apply to the XM-3000 as well as to his bike. But the quality issues may instead be issues related to the particular assemblage of parts of which his bike was composed, if his bike were a different actual model or an early prototype. I wonder if there is some truth to both of these possibilities.

Ed

So the impact on quality of an "improper" XM-3000 depends on how fake it is... Different factory? or different importer's stickers?

Well, none of this conversation would likely have happened if lone_wolf had said "My Mountian Chen built 3000W motor scooter is falling apart". I'm pretty sure that it does come from the same factory. No one is really debating that (I don't think?).

an early prototype.

or an early bike off the end of the production line while they were "debugging" that production line.

My first reason for posting is in essence just saying "please don't use 'XM-3000' as a shorthand for a 'Mountian Chen built 3000W motor scooter'". (And, lone_wolf was right in his reply - I didn't actually offer any help or advice - that came next).

Later postings are attempting to answer at least three different questions:
(1) The validity of someone trying to protect a brand / trademark / reputation for a bike from the same factory as lone_wolf's.
(2) If there are valid reasons why one might expect different quality from a bike from the same factory.
(3) Is the XM-3000 a good quality bike?

To look at #3 a little more:
Do you remember when the Z-20 and R-20 were released? I think it's accurate to say we saw more people complaining about failures and problems than we saw saying "my bike works OK" (many of those folks bikes are now working, I think - but that's not the point here). With the release of the XM-3000 I believe we've seen less issues and more "my bike works OK".

Yes, I am biased (as are a lot of people - but worry about agendas not biases). I've been watching closely because if there were common failure modes I wanted to be able to be quick to respond with solutions where possible. Things seem pretty much OK to me. Enough for me to recommend this product to friends and families as well as strangers who call me up and talk to me about it...

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you guys... really, I'm not. If you are hearing that in what I write, please chalk it up to frustration at the overall situation: a compelling idealized product (road-practical ev; (marginally) affordable price) that I'd like to have NOW providing the "pull", but the risk of poor quality pushing back against the ideal and saying NOT YET. Neither gas nor vectrix are compelling alternatives, for different reasons.

I don't claim to know all that much about evs or chinese factories, and I'm happy to be told my dearly held assumptions are wrong. But expressing my bad assumptions is not an attack on any of you. I have learned a lot from your various perspectives, and it appears I've got still more to learn!

(though I did know the $5 speedometer crack would be poking at you a bit, John... sorry)

Ed

Ed - I've not felt bad about any of the posts you've made. If I seem over defensive (most likely I am) then I apologize. The reply to your $5 speedo crack was my own poor attempt at humor!

However, the things that do "poke at me" the most are the attitudes of folks like GrooveConnection and SunDog - and it's entirely possible I'm out of line with my point of view. But occasionally I get fed up with all the Mountain Chen and/or X-Treme digs that get put out there.

FYI, the only place where I think you are "off base" with your assumption is that you see this as a "luxury / high end item" and I see it as an "entry level item" (from my perspective the luxury version is called the Vectrix and costs $5,000 more).

Your assumptions about quality are not unreasonable. There is a good chance that the quality of ERider's bikes are variable and that me, ladderman and zapdos got lucky and lone_wolf got unlucky. However, there's also a chance that lone_wolf got an early version (he did pay a bargain price for it as well).

So, perhaps your odds of a good one are 3 to 1? Or 20 to 1? Or something completely different, I don't know. At some point "you pays your money and you takes your chance". In your situation it might well be best to wait longer. Or the risk and cost might be outweighed by your own personal benefit. Or not.

I'd be happy to chat more with you about the pros and cons and what you can do to mitigate the cons.

From X-treme's website:

4. Can I put my own name on the scooters we buy from you?
If you order by the container, we can specially make the scooters custom with any name you choose. We offer this at no additional charge. You would need to provide us with your art work only. We only offer this if you order by the full container. Containers come in 20' - 40' & 40'HQ sizes. Each container comes with free 2% spare parts to you.

I would think that art work is the only logical change that is done to the scooters. The change is done at the China factory. Maybe I am missing something but why would Chen install inferior parts on a similar scooter that still has to pass US safety regulations? If you correlate an xm-3000 and some other badge engineered scooter to a Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe you should safely assume that both items should have similar quality. The Vibe is a Matix with a different name and looks. Maybe the quality of the carpeting is inferior but the major components would be equal in quality. Why would a differently named scooter from Chen's factory be of a terrible quality? Answer is it won't. My opinion is that just like all wonderful Toyota has a few lemons on occasion, Chen creates a few lemons also.

My personal experience is with an xb-600. It had excellent quality but the replacement controller I ordered from X-treme directly looked like it came off a salvaged xb-600. It worked but it got me thinking that there are plenty of lemons being produced or returned.

From X-treme's website:

4. Can I put my own name on the scooters we buy from you?
If you order by the container, we can specially make the scooters custom with any name you choose. We offer this at no additional charge. You would need to provide us with your art work only. We only offer this if you order by the full container. Containers come in 20' - 40' & 40'HQ sizes. Each container comes with free 2% spare parts to you.

Bear in mind that "scooter" is a much overused term. X-Treme started out selling little stand up scooters and have progressed into selling motor scooters. They sell both gas motor scooters (blech) and electric motor scooters (my favorite form of transportation!). AFAIK, the above quote from their site is about the little scooters not the motor scooters.

So, I don't think that quote really illustrates much.

However, the rest of your post is likely spot on. I don't think lone_wolf's bike was purposefully built with different spec components. And I don't think X-Treme does major work on their bikes (either here or in China).

What I think lone_wolf has is an early bike - likely an early prototype or sample. Mountain Chen likely sold it to EMS while they were contemplating stocking and selling them. (You too can buy a bike direct from Chen this way). EMS has since decided to "step up" into motorcycles (see lone_wolf's blog) and so decided to sell this one model they have. They sold it at a discounted price to lone_wolf. To me that indicates "buyer beware".

What others think is that I and others who report better experiences with our XM-3000 labeled bikes just got lucky.

We all have Mountain Chen bikes. He has just one factory. The conundrum is why are our Mountain Chen bikes apparently better than lone_wolf's?

JDH,
I don't see why x-treme won't change the artwork on any of the other models. If doing this is profitable they would be foolish not to and after looking at the container price lists there is plenty of markup on the high end scooters to make it worthwhile to rebadge.
After re-reading the problems lonerider is having (micro-switch, shocks, center-stand) it seems like he did buy a heavily used dealer sample. I would liken it to buying a Hertz used rental car. The car may be 2 years old but it would have been abused for those two years. I would guess the odometer may even have been replaced on his scoot which would be worrisome. Lonerider would know if the frame or other major components looked used or aged.
The parts that are faulty are normal wear items that seem to have inferior metal. I can attest that the bolts and screws used on my xb-600 are too low a quality for 20mph. Same is true on my 32mph GreenEmotor (A. Chen factory)Ecruiser220. If the same quality hardware is used on a 50mph scooter I would recommend having all parts replaced with quality stuff. The bolts, nuts, and screws on my scooters are partly what steered me away from a Chinese product capable of 50+mph.
New batteries, deteriorating parts, missing branding all shout out used and abused demo model to me. What interests me is this scooter may be an example of what one of these scooters will be like at the end of a battery life cycle. If you have scooters with 5,000+ miles on them i would be interested to know the service histories.