electric motorcycle project

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Brutus361
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I Link,

I may be wrong but a 400 amps contactors, gives 400 amps at 24 volt,36 or 48 Volt in my mind !

Good day
Brutus361

reikiman
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I Link,

I may be wrong but a 400 amps contactors, gives 400 amps at 24 volt,36 or 48 Volt in my mind !

Good day
Brutus361

You're wrong. A 400A switch whether it's a contactor or a manual switch.. that rating is the maximum current it can handle. If the current pushed through the switch is higher than the rating then bad things happen, usually the contacts weld together but it could also vaporise.

If you simply hook batteries to motor -- whether it's just wires or whether theres a switch or contactor in the middle -- the motor will pull as much as it can from the batteries.

The normal way with using a controller will meter the current at the amount set by the throttle.

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smace
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

If you really want to go this way, go back and reseach the control systems of Trolleys, subways, and to some extent, diesel electic rail in the first 1/2 of the 1900. They used a version of what you are talking about. Those systems worked up to 12000 volts and god knows how many amps. I think they used contactors, rather than relays, but they worked for a long time.
also somewhere on here is a post about someone doing that type of control on a simple bike in Asia.

Brutus361
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Hi Reikiman,

What I meant is a 48 volt 400 amps connector will provide 400 amps has its maximum rating. At 24 volt the same contactor as the same maximum amps output. If the motor request more current it can be very dangerous indeed.

Good day!
Brutus361

jyracing
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Thanks for the trike pic David. Looks like a great street trike/blue elephant. Rigid rear suspension? An electric trike is a pipe dream for me. But the inherent stability of a trike would be nice with twice the traction of dual rear motoX tires. Especially if I can get the correct golf cart axle for my motor for a reasonable price. My red elephant.

Brutus, I've heard several W:HP ratios, from 725 to 780. 746.314519 it is then :) With the way I ride and the weight of this beast, a bicycle front tire would washout in the corners offroad. Extended running time is the ultimate goal, as well as the conumdrum, with EVs. But it is also catch 22. I want traction over running time. It does me no good to be able to spin the tire off for 6 hours and get no where. Three hours with traction would be nice. My Yamaha XT350 dual sport has a 5.10" rear DOT knobby tire. I can spin it off in 3rd gear in sandy soil. The CR has a 120mm (4.72") true motoX tire but it is not street legal, so I will have to change it to a DOT tire. So with pukey, I can realistically expect to use about about half of the 125AH without damaging the batteries? Another great point Brutus... I didnt think about RPM being halved too at 24v. Thanks! I would need to gear for 2100 RPMs.

If you simply hook batteries to motor -- whether it's just wires or whether theres a switch or contactor in the middle -- the motor will pull as much as it can from the batteries.

Reikiman? ...as much as it can? Not as much as i needs? So there is the best argument for controllers, as I see it. They increase running time :)

if it drew 400A at 48V, it'll only draw 200A at 24V.

Does this contradict the previous quote or compliment it? I'm confused? If hlving the voltage also halves the amps, then meltdown shouldnt be an issue. I just need to know the 48v max amps and halve them?

What about a simple inline DC circut breaker? If the motor draws over 150A,250A,350A etc., it shuts off. One problem solved?

Ok smace will do. Dont get me started on diesels. I have two 7.5HP diesel generator engines that I have tossed around putting in something. But thats for biodeisel forumn :)

JY

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

blue elephant

Dunno if you meant it this way but sometimes I regret having bought the thing. But it's a fun ride and I hope to get it registered and usable soon.

Rigid rear suspension?

Yes it's very much what you suggested. The normal shocks have been replaced by steel bars connected to the same mounting points. There's a frame that the axle is mounted to and that frame is welded to the swing arm and for good measure there's also U-bolts at the place it's welded to the swing arm.

Reikiman? ...as much as it can?

Uh.. there's some kinda deal with the motor itself (inductance whatnot) which I don't know the precise details. e.g. I've direct connected a motor to a battery and it drew a small enough current it could be measured with a Watts-Up meter and it ran normally and I let it run for an hour or so continuously. I suppose I misspoke. However the real issue is that it's there's no control over the power used, because there's no controller, and because you can't control the power you can't control the speed. The only control you'd have is via the series of solenoids to switch the voltage around.

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LinkOfHyrule
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Another great point Brutus... I didnt think about RPM being halved too at 24v. Thanks! I would need to gear for 2100 RPMs.

Which reminds me of something else: you might have a problem with gearing this thing. It's a series, so it doesn't even HAVE a no-load speed. It just keeps accelerating until it flies apart if it's not connected to anything. Needless to say, don't try revving this thing up without it driving a load.

Another argument for a controller...

Reikiman? ...as much as it can? Not as much as i needs? So there is the best argument for controllers, as I see it. They increase running time

Pretty much. Plus you'll have far better control over the speed. Series motors have terrible speed regulation without controllers.

Because the armature and field are linked, their current draws are matched. Thing is, the faster it spins, the less current gets through the armature. The less current that gets through the armature, the less gets gets through the stator. The less there is through the stator, the less magnetic field there is, and the less magnetic field there is, the faster it wants to spin. And so it goes until it levels out with the load or overspeeds and flings itself to bits.

Does this contradict the previous quote or compliment it? I'm confused? If hlving the voltage also halves the amps, then meltdown shouldnt be an issue. I just need to know the 48v max amps and halve them?

It complements it. The maximum current it will draw will depend on the voltage applied and the terminal resistance of the motor. The lower the resistance and the higher the voltage, the more current it will draw.

What about a simple inline DC circut breaker? If the motor draws over 150A,250A,350A etc., it shuts off. One problem solved?

Not really. Unless you never want to be able to accelerate. That is to say, get moving from a stop.

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jyracing
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I just repeated what you said and matched our colors. I wish I had your blue elephant. I almost regret buying this motor cuz it opened a Pandora's box of possibilities... more power, more volts, possible trike, more questions, and more problems. But for 150 bucks I didnt want to pass up a new 48v/7hp motor.
Regging can be a problem. Luckily my CR has a CA title. DMV wont even need to see the bike to register it, however I build my red elephant.
Seems like rigid is fine for the street. I want to ride offroad so my monoshock is very necessary. I just measured my swingarm and there is 7" between the arms. Hopefully a GC rearend will sit in between them.
What size controller does yours have? Specifically the max amps allowed?

Hey Brutus, I missed your previous post...
Is hard for us to tell you what you need, because we didn’t' know exactly the project you have in mind.

What is the purpose of this motorcycle, motocross use or street use or both? 99% offroad
What kind of top speed you expect? 35mph?
The average cruising speed you expect is? 25mph?
What kind of range you expect? I dont know
The weight of this motorcycle is important or not? not

With all of those questions is easy, for us to help you much better.

For 48 Volt set up:

With the GE motor you have enough torque and power to reach 50 Mph on that kind of road with (4) 12 Volt 125 amp battery, downside Is quite heavy. To ride this motocross on quad trail this motocross have bad handling, is to heavier to do this job correctly.
I agree
For 24 Volt set up:

With the GE motor you have enough torque and power to reach 30 Mph on that kind of road with (2) 12 Volt 125 amp battery, better in term of weight, but half the range. The most important factor for any EV is Watts/hours. More Watts/hours more running time you have.To ride this motocross on quad trail this motocross have a much better handling than the 48 Volt version but still not funny to use on that kind of trail.
I am hoping for a ridable EV dirtbike. Offroad the ability of the rider can compensate.
When you build an electric motocross you have always to deal with compromise, or you go with top technology at higher cost to meet your goals.
compromise works for me.
Have a nice day!
Bikeraider
You too!
JY

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

it doesn't even HAVE a no-load speed. It just keeps accelerating until it flies apart if it's not connected to anything. Needless to say, don't try revving this thing up without it driving a load.

Wow!! Well thats a good thing to know. Thanks!

"Another argument for a controller..."

No comment :) :) :)

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

What size controller does yours have? Specifically the max amps allowed?

48v 450 amps made by logisystems

It was sold to me with a large curtis controller but it appears I messed it up. I have some controllers lying about in my garage and installed one of them.

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

What is the purpose of this motorcycle, motocross use or street use or both? 99% offroad

Go with the 24V setup. 48V 125Ah of lead is going to be WAY too heavy for offroading.

What kind of top speed you expect? 35mph?

Doable. But, like I said, speed regulation is difficult with a series. Definitely get more than one gear ratio to try, if you can.

The average cruising speed you expect is? 25mph?

Relays + series motor = you don't get to pick a cruising speed. :/

What kind of range you expect? I dont know

As heavy and inefficient as this thing's going to be, you still have like 1.5kWh of usable energy in those batts. I'll take a WAG of around 10-15 miles.

The weight of this motorcycle is important or not? not

You might not think so now, but you might later. Try too keep it as light as design will allow, at least. Though there's really not much you can do, as far as I can tell.

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jyracing
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I want to go with 24v but I haven't found a decent 100A+ 24v controller. So much for your technology :) Got a 24v/100A+ laying about your garage Reikiman? :) Have you thought about replace the steel bars with shocks? Or would rear suspension not work on Ele?

If I can figure out how to mount a sprocket on the motor I will start with 10:51 sprockets. At 2100RPM it calcs to 31 MPH. I have several other front sprockets: 13, 15, 17.
Do you know where I can find a rear sprocket like this?
1769b.jpg
15 miles will be a good start. If it moves at all.
Weightwise, it just keeps getting heavier and heavier. Then add my 250lbs.

How did you figure out 1.5kWh?

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Hmm...One could easily be made for cheap, if you don't need all the functionality of something like an Alltrax. I don't suppose you're up to dismantling a scooter controller and making a separate PCB for some high-powered FETs?

Or Kelly sells some suitable ones, as does Alltrax.

I recommend trying the smallest front sprocket first. It will keep amp draw down. Beware of wheelies, though. Seriously. Alltrax used to have a vid on their site of a cart doing a wheely with a 400A controller. Your bike will be lighter, less frontheavy, and possibly be pulling more amps than that. Be careful.

24V of battery, 125Ah nominal. About half that for Peukert losses. Might not be that drastic (but given the drain rates of a dead short to a golf cart motor, it might be), but being conservative with range estimates is generally a good idea.

So, 24V x 60Ah = 1440Wh. Round to 1.5kWh for simplicity's sake.

Also, I found this PDF on Alltrax's site while looking for that vid. You might have seen it already, but if you haven't I suggest going over it. Lot of relevant info in there.

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jyracing
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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I can dismantle it but pardon my ignorance, I dont know what PCBs and FETs are. So its probably just a little out of my area of expertise. I dont need all the bells and whistles. Just the throttle, I guess.

Great links! Thanks! Aren't I supposed to avoid SEPEX controllers like the DCX at alltrax since my motor isnt a SEPEX? I like the Kelly KD24400 controller. One minute of 400A? Whoopie! Beware of wheelies? I love wheelies! I have been riding 500 CC wheelie monster dirt bikes and 10 second 1/4 mile drag bikes for decades. I'll be okay Dad. But thanks for your concern.

Do the LifePO Batts have that pukey effect too?

Why did you have to show me the solenoid/contactor link? You know how addicted I am to solenoids :) Hitech solenoids! Cool!
Lots of lay info on it too, thanks.
12v24v2solenoids3.jpg

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Great links! Thanks! Aren't I supposed to avoid SEPEX controllers like the DCX at alltrax since my motor isnt a SEPEX?

Yah. They've got controllers for sepex and series. The AXE line is what you'd be looking at.

I like the Kelly KD24400 controller. One minute of 400A? Whoopie! Beware of wheelies? I love wheelies! I have been riding 500 CC wheelie monster dirt bikes and 10 second 1/4 mile drag bikes for decades.

I'm not entirely sure it would be a "wheelie", so much as a violent toss, were you to use a contactor instead of a controller. The real problem is that EVERY acceleration might end up as a wheelie/epic fail depending on how much amperage the motor actually decides to draw.

But whatever. Wear a helmet. ;)

I'll be okay Dad. But thanks for your concern.

Heh. Coming from someone old enough to be mine. :P

Do the LifePO Batts have that pukey effect too?

Technically yes, but it's so minimal that it can be ignored for all practical purposes.

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Wow, I see fused solenoid contactors and an out-of-control bike in your future..........

From experience, be sure to put in some sort of dead-man switch so that you can turn the bike off in a jiffy if/when everything fuses together and the bike is careening out of control.

Even something as ghetto as rigging your main power line through some Anderson SB-350s, routing it over your gas tank, and putting a huge pull-cord on one of the SB-350s would do the trick. Binering the pull-cord to your jacket with a 99c aluminum biner will give some measure of dead-manning while also not tying you to the bike in a death grip.

Karen

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I want to go with 24v but I haven't found a decent 100A+ 24v controller. So much for your technology Smiling Got a 24v/100A+ laying about your garage Reikiman? Smiling Have you thought about replace the steel bars with shocks? Or would rear suspension not work on Ele?

Most 48v controllers can work at 24v. However let me suggest a controller maker that is not often mentioned... http://www.4qd.co.uk ... they have a nice range of controllers. I've used their Uni-8 controllers on a bicycle and a scooter and it worked out really well. And they explicitly support 24v. As they're based in England and as the dollar-euro is at a disadvantageous price buying from England can be expensive.

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

I always use a failsafe (PC, Dead-person) switch Karen, in everything I build. Did have a PWC years ago that had a sticky throttle and the plastic tether broke and we had to chase it across the lake.
Thanks Reikiman. Ah, the low voltage shutoff is switchable.

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

JY -

Cool. I didn't see it on your schematic above and was worried about that. Have fun!

K

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Good idea with the 350s. I wonder if 350 is high enough amps with this motor? I run 175s on my racecars. I wont attach anything to my body.
I have been designing the radius support. Heres what I come up with
RADIUS_LOAD_SUPPORT.jpg

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

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Re: electric motorcycle project Phase Two

Well, another one of my great inventions that someone else already thought of. I'm on dialup so it will take me days to see the vids. Thanks for the link Link.

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Re: electric motorcycle project

just read this whole thread....that cr250 would have been cool with a light motor, batts and proper gearing. I would have gone with the Mars-R, (5-6) 20 AH Batts and 6:1.

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Re: electric motorcycle project

would have been cool

LOL You sound like the Chebby boys at the drag strip on Fridays. They all stand there scratching their heads on Sundays, when Im standing next to my Mustang and being handed the big trophy and (their) cash. Thanks for coming PGT.

Hey Link, saw the first vid so far. Awesome! Thanks again. How do you find these links?

I didnt know I can use the field coil bolts to mount the motor. That will make life much simpler.

So they dont push very easy with regen braking? Makes sense. I dont think my motor has it.

I like his and this idea of no chain tensioner, much shorter chain, and mounting the motor to the swingarm. When the motor gets here tomorrow I want to try mounting it like this.
1769c.jpg
I have searched over and over for the big rear sprocket with no luck. You are so good at web searching, maybe you can find it? As long as it is flat, I can use it. My stock rear sprocket is 51 tooth, so with a 10 tooth motor gear it calcs to 31 MPH @ 2100 RPM @ 24V. That will be COOL.

His vid on the driveshaft is very elaborate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylHD4R2agFA&feature=related
I dont need a lathe or milling machines my way. Just a welder, grinder, drill, two flange bearings, and a OEM input shaft.

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Re: electric motorcycle project

Sorry JY, didn't intend for my post to come off negitive...I just have been thinking about a electric-crosser lately. I'm sure YOUR project WILL be cool! Best of luck.

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Hey Link, saw the first vid so far. Awesome! Thanks again. How do you find these links?

Free time. Way too much free time.

I have searched over and over for the big rear sprocket with no luck. You are so good at web searching, maybe you can find it?

McMaster-Carr has like everything. I'm finding flat sprockets in seven chain sizes, seven pitches, 22 different numbers of teeth (up to 60), and too many widths, outside diameters, and bore sizes to count. They also make massive roller chain gears up to 112 teeth if you're willing to pay for them.

You can get even bigger reductions if you go with a belt.

Otherwise, you'll have to have something custom cut or use a jackshaft.

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Re: electric motorcycle project

No Problem PGT. I welcome all suggestions and comments. Good luck on your cool EV.

My cat, dog, and I burned the late nite oil stripping it down to the bone. Eagerly awaiting the motor tomorrow. The cat was more help than the dog, as usual...
catbike1.jpg
Dog.jpg
af.jpg

I have no idea how big the motor is dimensionwise, so I will have to decide where to put it after it gets here. Hoping it will fit on the swingarm. May have to use a jackshaft.

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Re: electric motorcycle project

Hi JY,

I don't won't to be negative about your project, but to meet the specification you give me is better to have a light electric motocross with a narrow rear tire, If I'm right you rear tire as 4" wide or more. The Zero X, Quantya and my motocross use a 3" wide rear tire, wider tire need more hp and torque for the same speed.

Like I said before the "gas" tank of any EV is calculate in Watt/hours, more Watt/hour you get more running time you got. Then a 24 Volt setup with the GE motor, actual batteries, gives you a running time of about 10 to 15 minutes as is best on a paved road. Motocross trail with mud, sand etc is very hard for any EV and it cut this running time to 8 or 10 minutes max (I'm really generous here).

If you have Makita service center near you, you can ask them for defective Makita pack 3Ah 18V LXT batteries packs, I made my batteries pack with them. When you open those pack you have 10 cells on them, 2 of them are usually bad but the 8 other cells are in good shape. Is a lot of work to make a pack like this but this battery pack is really a reward for you because, you motocross really perform like a motocross ICE at lower speed with a great running time.

I have 420 Cells for on 58.8 Volt (full charge) and 51.8 Volt (nominal) and 45 Amps. This pack gives 450 amps at 10C continuous.

The CR-250 is really a nice plate form to work with but, for a great electric motocross you need a 72 Volt set up, with an Etek-RT (Mars, ME0709), or Perm132, and the best of all Agni 95 Reinforced motor. You also need, a Kelly controller with regen like the KD-72401. With this set up you have a lot of fun with this electric motocross, with a great top speed (55 MPH) and range. You can also use a 58.8 volt set up like mine with a top speed of 40 Mph to 45 Mph. But my next upgrade for motocross is a 72 volt set up with the Kelly KD-72401.

Sorry again my goal is to help you and not discourage you, but for an Off-road motorcycle you need amps and torque. I hope its help, good day!
Brutus361.

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Re: electric motorcycle project

No worries Brutus. I appreciate the info and priceless help.
You are so right... Stripped down I can pick the bike up with one hand. With the two batteries and two little motors I have to use my tractor to put it up on the bench.

If I'm right you rear tire as 4" wide or more.

The CR has a 120mm (4.72") rear tire. Please bear in mind that I am 6'3" tall and weigh 250 pounds. I would kill a small, light weight bike. I have a little 77 Yamaha DT 100 about the size of your bike and the Zero X that I can convert too. A little tire wont get any traction. I have ridden a dozen bikes with 3 to 4" tires. They dont work very well with me on the bike. A small tire is like a knife cutting through butter on the ground with me on the bike. Especially with lots of HP.

Is a lot of work to make a pack like this

I have no idea how to do this. I would end up blowing them and myself up. I have to use off-the-shelf batteries. But, it is a great idea for you experts.
I use these 125AH batteries on my racecars, so they are free for this experiment.
This experiment includes climbing a 45 degree, 100 yard hill behind my house, my proving ground. The hill is soft sand and loss rocks. My XT350 with its 5.10" rear tire has no traction problems going up the hill. With the DT100 I have to being flying when I reach the bottom of the hill or else the rear starts spinning half way up and I have to turn around. I have climbed (or tried to climb) this hill with every dirtbike, ATC, quad, and 4x4 truck I have had over the last 22 years. Needless to say, I haven't made it to the top of the hill lots of times.

The CR-250 is really a nice plate form to work with

I agree. Its 25 year old technology and heavy, but its strong and has good travel on the suspension. How many Zero X's will be around in 25 years? Zero?

Bottom line, right now, I dont care how long the batteries last. Batteries are easy to change to 48V or 96V later. Tires are easy to change. I want to go up this hill from a standing start, at the bottom of the hill. It will be a heavy tank with a big rear tire, but it will go up the hill, I hope. We'll see.

I have abandoned the solenoid/contactor idea so I can use the twist throttle. Looking at 4 or 5 used controllers from 24V to 48V/275A to 600A When the motor gets here, if I dont like it, it goes back in the box and stuffed in the shed, and I shop for another obscure motor to "play" with.

This is a never ending project. This is phase two of 20. The joy is derived from working with my kids, succeeding and failing, growing, learning from experience, building something that no one else has done before, taking the road not travelled, bringing something that is headed for the scrap metal pile back to life. Some work, some dont.

Its not about the money. My hobbies cost three times as much as it would cost to buy it off the showroom floor.

Its as Frank sang... "I did it my way."

And good day to you too sir,
JY

jyracing
jyracing's picture
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Last seen: 11 years 11 months ago
Joined: Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 04:02
Points: 112
Re: electric motorcycle project

I got an idea...
My 54 pound motor arrived today so I headed over to the golf cart shop.
I picked up a yamaha golf cart rear axle housing. It mates up to my motor.
Raa_0.jpg
RBB.jpg
RCC.jpg
What if I cut the housing off, remove the inner gears, use the input shaft with a 10 tooth sprocket that is supported by the housing and mount the housing to the motor?
motoraxlemate.jpg
This would provide radius support and center the armature. It would be a COOL custom sprocket cover too. Then I can mount the motor to the bike (somewhere) with the field coil bolts.
The input shaft bearings are lubricated by the rearend oil so I will have to switch to sealed bearings
Whatcha think?
I know, buy an etek-R, lifePos, and skinny tires. I hope we are past that by now :)
JY

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