XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

40 posts / 0 new
Last post
eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Well, added my 21st cell today and below are some pics. I did not mess with the existing battery box. Also further down is some measurements and mod I did for the fuel gauge (even if you don't plan to do this mod, the info does show how the current XM3500 is setup - I think it was set for the original 19cell as I would prefer not to hit the RED recharge point with the cells this low).

Looking more at the battery and considering swelling, I decided two things; not to mess with the existing battery compartment since is has them held tightly and then to mount the additional cell so it is "compressed". I also moved the circuit breaker so I can access it through the existing hole under the seat yet making the wires and connections much better.

In the second picture you can see the Paktrakr I added and my BMS (the BMS unplugs when I ride but the Paktrakr is permanently mounted). I will post another topic on how much better the bike performs once the weather improves (it is cold and rainy).

21cell1.jpg

21cell2.jpg

fuelgauge.jpg

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

P.S. My DC/DC converter failed with the new battery addition (I guess it did not like the 5% more input voltage, but I would think that would fine). I am ordering a better one anyway that is 93% efficient at full load and can handle the higher input as well as having a good output of 18A (I think the DC/DC is at its limit anyway as the headlights are pretty dim and I think the 12V output is sagging).

I did take the bike for a ride and the torque is much better - I had a steep grade of 20% that was slowing me to 15MPH and I now go up it at 20MPH (this is more than I thought I would get). I also can do a 15% grade at 25MPH and the starting acceleration is notably better. The top-end I do not know yet as I was driving without any lights including brake lights (I expect the gain here to be less as the torque/speed curve here has less gain than the lower speed/torque where ripple and cogging torque come into play).

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 6 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Any clue on your top end speed yet?

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

Mikie
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 25, 2008 - 15:55
Points: 114
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Hey Guys-- sorry to be so awol but I have been putting all my time into my 3500LI 24 cell 40 ah mod. Thanks John I did get
4 new batteries from Elite and they were great doing business with and timely too. I have extended the rear of my battery
compartment and I have taken alot of pictures but I have been to busy with all this to post and write. I have learned alot
and will share it (including where to get new tires as I drilled right through a rear sidewall with 5 miles on it!) when I have
more time next week. Tomorrow I have to go around the corner to my auto body shop guy and have him weld on the rear cross
support I had to cut off and move back in order to accommodate the new 4 pack. So I have lots of questions for you guys, like
what I will need to upgrade for the DC/DC converter and even the controller as I believe I have also increased my voltage to
3.32 X 24=80volts! should I strap on a fire extinguisher too? Have I jumped to far ahead for the motor? I saw Sparkies video, I Loved the fancy rpm test man, that was great! and he did not seem to get too much heat on his 3000 going up to 72Volts. I also used a bunch of 12 gauge wire and hooked up a trick board(s) for voltage readings and so the I can hook up my upcoming Green BMS easily to all the batteries, yes all 24-- here are a few pictures....Thanks guys

ps Tomorrow I am finally getting my MCO from Extreme, it has taken 3 weeks! They kept telling me it was on the way and then they
called and said that they did not have an MCO that matched my VIN numbers, I was willing to change the numbers to accomidate but
they had to call back to China and that took another 10 days to finally straighten it out, it is coming FEDX overnight tomorrow
but guess who paid the $30 it cost to get it, of course not Extreme, what ever happened to customer service? M

mikie

zarlor
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, July 3, 2008 - 07:02
Points: 146
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

I'm looking forward to whatever you come up with on this mod. It's probably wishful thinking, but especially with a controller replacement and such I'm kind of hoping you'll tell us about an improved top-end speed. No matter what, though, I'm looking forward to hearing how this works out and all the details on ow you got there.

Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

I will need to upgrade for the DC/DC converter and even the controller as I believe I have also increased my voltage to 3.32 X 24=80volts!

The DC/DC needs to supply about 6A average and 11A peak. I found one that would take 75Vin for $50 but I did not run across anything that would take 80V.

I have been stuck traveling and having bad weather so I have not had a chance to do a top-end on the 21 cell mod. I did however get a GPS for my son so now I have one to try measuring speed.

P.S. Be careful with the 24cell stack. If you just complete a charge cycle on them using the 3.65V standard, you will have 87.6V for a short period and this slowly drops to the holding voltage. If you turn on your key right after a charge you will hit the DC/DC with a higher voltage (this is why I went with 75V in for a 21cell stack; it also has an input over-voltage protection just in case).

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Okay - top end speed update.

My earlier estimates of top-end of 48-49MPH were off and now using the GPS they were closer to 46-47MPH. With 21 cells now I am getting 49.5MPH. Hill climbing torque is much better so all-in-all the 21cell mod has the XM3500 close to what I wanted when I first purchased the bike. Of course I also had to add a BMS! ;)

NOTE - at 49.5MPH the bike is fairly stable but I don't think I would want anymore speed as it gets a little squirrelly...

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

zarlor
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, July 3, 2008 - 07:02
Points: 146
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

eped,

If you don't mind my asking, what height and weight are you? And is that top-end speed on the flat or an incline?

Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Lenny - top speed is on a flat. There is a slight incline at the end of my run and it slows to 46MPH. I am 5'6" and 170lbs. If I ducked down I could get about 1-2MPH more but could not see the GPS (and I don't like riding like that!). As a side note, the XM3500 is almost too big for me as far as reaching the ground when stopped.

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

zarlor
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, July 3, 2008 - 07:02
Points: 146
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Thanks. Just wondering since I'm 6'1" and 220, but only getting a top end of around 39-40 mph on mine. I guess the extra size and weight really add up (unless I just have a controller issue.) I've also tried ducking down (and I know what you mean about feeling silly doing it!) and get the same results... 1 MAYBE 2 mph if I'm really lucky. I do tend to hunch a bit and lower my head slightly when riding normally, though. I think that might buy me an extra 1/2 mph, which is better than nothing.

Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Mikie wrote:
I will need to upgrade for the DC/DC converter and even the controller as I believe I have also increased my voltage to 3.32 X 24=80volts!

I'm confused. The battery charger's output that I have is rated at 76.2 Volts, charges the batteries to a total of 79.9 Volts (~4 volts per battery) It seems that if I added another four batteries the total voltage would be 96 volts. Will the motor handle 96 volts? Also I'm interested it what DC/DC converter is a good replacement for the current one. I'm thinking of using higher wattage bulbs (e.g. Head lights, Brake/Tail light, Turn signals.)

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Even if you restrict the charger to the nominal 3.65V per cell recommended charge-hold voltage in CV mode, you will be left with 87.6V with 24 cells. They will eventually settle to around 3.35-3.40V once you stop charging but this takes awhile (hours). Thus, you will see potentially ~88V with a fresh charge on your controller and DC/DC converter.

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

Mikie
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 25, 2008 - 15:55
Points: 114
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Well it took 3 weeks but I finally got the registration from Extreme, guess their name really fits. I do have the 24 cell modification in and I am trying to put some pictures up, lets see if it works. However I have not hooked up the new 4 batteries in series with the rest. I have a feeling that I would blow something up and I can run around now while I am waiting for a larger controller and DC/DC controller.

When I received the bike the brake light did not come on when I put on either hand brake but the tail light on the same bulb works. I have torn off all the panels now on the front of the bike and got to the front brake wires and harness, all the continuity tests are good so far, I tried 2 new bulbs but still no luck. What a pain, I will try and call a bike shop to see if they can help me, and oh by the way the brake switches are good too. I also found some extra wiring sockets, one that comes out of the motor that seems to be the sister of the one that is hooked up? And another socket under the seat that is for who knows what. I will try and take pictures of both but next post, here are the pictures of the mod I hope they come through....M

To sum up: New controller that will handle 80-90Volts and commensurate DC/DC converter and of course the Green BMS....thanks for the input....M

mikie

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 6 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

I have grave concerns over bringing it up to >90V.

If I had to guess, that 70V->5V converter circuit will be the first thing to go. Mountain talked about it once. I get first dibs on the fried motor controller. :-)

Won't you try to enable regen first before you do something even more risky?

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

ah, the way i got around that on my emax was to wire the DC-DC and the controller logic side to only 48v worth of the pack, and not across the full pack.
you will run into balance issues, but if you use a different charger for only the extra cells, that might not be a worry (its sure isnt for me).
then the only thing you would have to worry about is what the power stage can handle.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 6 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

That's what I did too with the 12V DC-DC. The 5V one is embedded with the motor controller.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

eped wrote:

P.S. My DC/DC converter failed with the new battery addition (I guess it did not like the 5% more input voltage, but I would think that would fine). I am ordering a better one anyway that is 93% efficient at full load and can handle the higher input as well as having a good output of 18A (I think the DC/DC is at its limit anyway as the headlights are pretty dim and I think the 12V output is sagging).

I am curious as to which DC/DC converter you ordered. I think my DC/DC converter is having problems. I rode the XM3500Li in 32 degree weather after which I noticed that no lights were on. I found that the 10 amp fuse was blown. After I replaced the fuse I noticed that both headlights had burned out (low and high beam) and the tail light portion of the brake/tail light also burned out. Seems like the circuit experienced overvoltage. I am also considering using normal headlight bulbs (55 watt), but I wonder how that will affect the mileage (distance).

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Henry42 - here is a link to the one I ordered. This does require you put it in some housing since it is an open board, but I went with this as it has great efficiency and can handle the load and input voltage. Let me know your thoughts as I can look around for one that is housed already but I could really not find much for this good of a price or in a housing.

Quarter-Brick Isolated DC-DC Converters 48V to 12V 18A Through Hole
Manufacturer Part #: QBW018A0B1Z
Mouser Part #: 894-QBW018A0B1Z

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Mikie wrote
I have learned alot and will share it (including where to get new tires...

Did you find a place to purchase tires for the XM3500Li?

Mikie
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 25, 2008 - 15:55
Points: 114
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Hey Henry good to hear from you and my turn to help you out. I was drilling a new hole for a fender support and the drill went through the metal and right into the sidewall of the rear tire a tire with 5 miles on it.

Here is what I ordered from HelmetHead Cycle gear on the web:

Avon Viper Stryke AM^# Sottter Universal Tire 130/60-13
Product Number TU-T2362511

The Price was $39.23 plus $15.00 for shipping(UPS) and I took it to my local motorcycle shop to have them put this tubeless tire on, I did not need to order a new stem for it.

I had to raise the stand up with some pieces of wood in order to get the bike high enough to get the hub and tire off. You will have to peal off the white wire wrap off on the 3 large leads to the controller and then unscrew those leads,(I used black tape to re wrap them after the tire was re-installed. There are two female ports for the very thin 4 wire leads to the rear hub motor, what they are for is anybodies guess and why there are two of them is so far a mystery, for kicks I plugged the one male into both the females and they both worked, go figure, I suppose that when my guys install the new controller they will have to figure out what those wires are for? Do you need to change a flat already? Best Mikie

mikie

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Thanks for the information. I have not had a flat yet. I wanted a source before anything happened. I already have put almost 1000 miles (compensating for odometer being off, the odometer reading is 1918.1km)

I think that the miles would be around 1500 miles if I were not having electrical issues. (First the batteries, then the DC to DC converter quit working after I went over railroad tracks in 32 degree weather. It burned out both headlights, high and low beams along with the brake/tail light.) All of this is without the added battery or fuel gauge mod.

Anyway I wanted to order new tires around 5000 to 6000 miles which may be the middle of next year. I wasn't planning on putting that many miles on it, however, I find I'm using it to make several small trips (e.g. grocery store, hardware store, etc.) I was only considering using it for the 10 mile commute (one way) five times a week. Also I originally thought of stopping once the temperature got below 50 degrees, however, the 32 degrees doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would.

Mikie
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 25, 2008 - 15:55
Points: 114
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Hey Guys-- I am getting ready to strip the scooter down yet once again, so that it will be bare bones for the new controller and DC/DC converter. So where exactly is that converter on the scooter and what does it look like? I do not remember seeing another
box other than the controller on the side. Thanks ahead of time....Mikie

mikie

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

I found mine on a "shelve" under the dash and all this wiring.
DSCF1572.jpg

Here it is after I took it out. It has "double sided tape" to secure it.
DSCF1593.jpg

Mikie
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 25, 2008 - 15:55
Points: 114
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Henry-- what a champ you are! I hate going into and under the dash, I will let them do it after all I am paying them good bucks to do this mod-- but I will still take off all the panels for them. Thanks so much....Mikie

mikie

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

Hey that looks like the same DC-DC off the old emax scooters.
same connector and such.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

I busted the DC/DC apart to look at the circuit inside. It is a pretty cheap design and does not surprise me it failed for myself and henry42. Also embedding power electronics in epoxy is not an easy thing for reliability.

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

eped - can you post a picture of the insides of the DC-DC?

FYI - as epoxy breaks down it becomes conductive and causes shorts. whether its a problem depends on the tolerances of the design.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

I received the "Quarter-Brick Isolated DC-DC Converters 48V to 12V 18A Through Hole (QBW018A0B1Z)" Today. Now to install it. The original converter had a +72vdc lead, a +12vdc and had a shared ground/negative lead. Will I damage the converter if I connect the input negative (VI[-]) to the output negative (VO[-])?

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 17:14
Points: 1309
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

There should be no need to connect the 2 negative leads together. I would apply power to the input and using a DVM check to see if there is a voltage difference between the 2 negative leads. If none then there should be no problem. However if there is a few volts difference it could cause a problem. The real reason there are 2 leads on your newer unit is so the input and output are isolated. I would want to keep them isolated so if the + of the battery came in contact with either of the output wires it should not short the batteries.

JMO,
Grandpa Chas S.

strawhistle
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, March 10, 2008 - 08:43
Points: 340
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

:) Here on my li3500 the "ground - wire" for the byke is shared , My dc-dc convertor also c**ped out and killed headlamps and flasher and left turn signals ! Were can i get those 18-18w headlamp bulbs ? I have not increased the cell count or anything . He's Back!! LaTeR

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

eped
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, June 13, 2008 - 22:16
Points: 126
Re: XM3500 Added Battery and Fuel Gauge Mod

There should be no need to connect the 2 negative leads together. I would apply power to the input and using a DVM check to see if there is a voltage difference between the 2 negative leads. If none then there should be no problem. However if there is a few volts difference it could cause a problem. The real reason there are 2 leads on your newer unit is so the input and output are isolated. I would want to keep them isolated so if the + of the battery came in contact with either of the output wires it should not short the batteries.

Henry42 and Grandpa Chas - This DC-DC is isolated so connect the two negatives together and use these as ground. This will be fine but you must do this for it to work.

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

Pages

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • F177
  • ecosavesolar
  • ghome121
  • Alt_rides
  • mourad96

Customize This