I recently got stranded after only four days of leaving the scooter unused, when I had to use my car to move some equipment for a few days. Charged the bike after use Wednesday night, left it plugged in Thursday-Sunday, when I took it out for a 20-mile round trip. I noticed right away that it dropped the first bar before I left my own block, and that it lacked the usual "zip" that I have come to love. It ran out of power after about 17 miles, whereas I can usually count on 30-40 miles from a full charge.
I have convinced myself that I need to top off the bike's charge often, so I now put the Vectrix on a timer (Intermatic DT620CL, from Lowe's, possibly discontinued) and have it top off at 3 am daily. Since the timer makes it easy to do so, I am wondering if there's any reason to do this top-off charging less frequently, say, every other day, or every third day. Can daily topping-off charging of a parked Vectrix (in cold weather, no less) have any sort of negative impact on battery life?
Thanks for any insight,
Arlo
You mention cold weather. It's possible that your loss of range is more weather related than charge related.
NiMH batteries are well known as losing charge when un-used. This is due to theri chemistry and absolutely normal. Most possibly you recognised the usual discharge plus the cold weather/wind.
I have my bike on a timer as well which will have fully charged my bike just before I leave in the morning. This allows me to use the "fresh" electrons and not the old and lacy once from last days charge ;-)
So no panic, your bike is well behaving.
Norman
Thanks, guys, for your input. It wasn't particularly cold yet when this happened, (a couple of weeks ago) but we're now getting down to freezing outside, though the bike is garaged.
What I'm interested in is long-term considerations, since it may be a couple of months before I get back on my every-day use pattern. I understand that constant trickle charging can damage NiMH batteries, but have never seen recommendations for optimal use of this sort of topping-off charge.
Arlo
I think you may have missed this part:
I doesnt matter if you left it plugged in. Once the charge is completed (let's say Thursday night) the charger will stop charging and will not re-start the charging process. I am not sure if there might be a re-activation (maybe after 10 days) of the charging but to what I have seen (over a weekend) Once the initial charge is finished there will be no more charge until you disconnect and connect the mains.
Norman
A timer device would effectively disconnect and reconnnect "the mians" each time it cycled. Therefore, with each cycle of the timer, the power should come on, check the status of the battery, and charge if needed.
yep, this is exactly what happens with a 24hrs timer. Every 24 hrs the charging process will be started. Would I recommend this as a long term storage (i.e. 3 month)? NO, the recommended long term storage is to keep the NiMh batteries above a certain level (60% charge?) and not to constatntly charge them every 24hrs. Have a look into the GP NiMH recommendations (someone posted a link here just recently).
I went on vacation for five days, and it was getting cold in my parts too and rain season has finally started. While on vacation I left my Vectrix plugged in with my wall timer set to do a daily charge at 1AM in my garage. When I came back the Vectrix battery gauge showed full. However upon my first ride to work, I noticed my range was lower and I also felt the Bike was sluggish from a standstill. When I got to work I had only 15 miles left, but normally I see ~25 miles range left. I decided to recharge at work but normally don't need to do this. On my return trip, the range meter started out at only 15 mile range even though I just fully charged it. Normally it shows around 35-40 miles after a charge. However as I came home the range meter slowly increased as I rode home at freeways speeds. I was kind of annoyed but laughing to myself as my range meter went up as I was going top speed on my bike.
The next day the bike was acting normal so I didn't think too much about it, but since it sounds so similar I thought I make comment.
I noticed a similar thing and posted about it some time ago
I had to leave the bike in my business partners garage for 3 days without being charged (was 15/17 bars when it went in.)
On the ride home the bike was sluggish and slow to accelerate in the midrange. Also went from 10 miles to 3 in a very short space of time on est range.
However one overnight standard charge later and it was all back to normal.
I also noticed that the cold weather also affects range. It is 5'C - 7'C here during the day and after I left the bike out at the work from morning 'till the afternoon, when I went driving after the work, the bars were disappearing more quickly than usual. I attribute it to the cold weather.
I read today in my Auto Magazine, that Led-Acid batteries (car batteries) lose aprox. 20% of capacity at the 0'C. At 5'C, that's 15% capacity loss. If NiMH is affected the same way by the temperature as Led-Acid batteries, then it is normal to lose some range by the cold weather.
Also, the low temperature increases battery's internal resistance. Higher the resistance, less power battery outputs.
You wish!
But reality is different.
It checks it's memory of the SOC, not the actual SOC.
Self discharge is not being taken into account in the ccurrent software versions, and it is not easy to do, either.
Constant logging of battery temperature would need to be done, because self discharge increases massively with higher temperatures.
That is why topping up does not work.
What does work is to leave the scooter in 40% SOC and then do a full charge just before it is needed again. And even then it might not charge fully the first time around after a long period of inactivity.
The serious risk associated with inactivity periods is that it is very likely that one of the 102 cells has a significantly increased self discharge rate compared to the others. This cell will be damaged further when the unexpectedly low range forces continuing riding or rather crawling along. Reverse charging is a likely result of this and can destroy the cell in very short order.
Several shallow discharges followed by full recharging each time are needed after a long period of inactivity, just like when you get a new Vectrix which has not been used in months.
The software (and hardware??) needs to be enabled to count "off" time as well as running time, so that a slow and long charge at C/15 can be done at appropriate times to fully charge and equalise all cells.
I would suggest C/15 charging for 2hrs for the first day, and another hour for each day of inactivity in the first week, then another hour for each further week to a maximum of 20hrs at C/15.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Thanks. That pretty much answers the question of why his bike lost range and initial bars even though it had been plugged in.
I can confirm that.
I prepared my Vectrix for the winter last night while it was charging, cleaning and polishing it with Motul clean&wax. It's like new now.
Ok, down to the point. What Mik says it's true. The charging process doesn't take into account battery's self discharge. At my first few full charges, when I received the bike, at the end of the CP, the battery bars showed 16/17 full and 153V battery Voltage - right at the voltage cut-off. All later stages - end of CC and end of EC hovered at around 152V-153V.
But yesterday, CP finished at 16/17 bars BUT the CP ended at 148V and CC and EC ended at 151V (17/17), way below cut-off voltage of 153V. What that means is, that the charger thinks that the battery is already charged (17/17 battery bars full at the end of charge) when in fact it's not.
I thought that the charger charges like any other NiMH charger. Every full charge being a fresh charge, using cut-off voltage as an indication, when to terminate charge. What the current software does is remember the battery's capacity, when in fact, the battery self-discharges a bit by bit and the charger doesn't take that into account. When it charges, it thinks that it has already charged the battery to full 100%, when it charged it only 90%.
Now, that presents a problem. EC - equalization charge should equalize the cells by filling them up with 'unnecessary' energy. Those, that are already fully charged, output a heat. Those that aren't, are being charged to reach full capacity.
But because the battery is only 90% full, the actual equalization doesn't take place. Another indication of this was, that at the EC battery didn't heat up at all from the starting temperature of 16'C. When I first received the bike EC heated the battery for at least few degrees.
That would also explain, why the battery gauge still shows 2/17 or 3/17 bars full, when in fact, the battery is nearly empty and you suddenly drop to a 0. Because the charger initially thought, that the battery is 100% full, when if fact it was only 90%, while driving it thinks, that it still has 10% of charge in the battery, but they are empty - disappearing bars syndrome.
I guess only a full discharge - up to the red battery telltale (BALPOR?), resets the charger, but as Mik has pointed out, because cells aren't balanced, that might lead to the polarity reversal for some cells.
Mik, are you sure that a few shallow discharges and full recharges gets charger back to the 153V cut-off? I can't test that now anymore, since my bike is parked and there's a nasty weather outside. Watch for the end of CP stage. Does it reach 153V cut-off? That is the only indication we have, that the battery will truly be equalized.
I just left my almost barnd new 2008 Vectrix with the latest software i.e. Oct 30, 2008 for 6 days before using it. No problem at all. Did my 30mile round trip and had 5 bars left.
Unfortunately that does not prove anything!
A) No way of knowing if there was actual charge left in the battery or just 5 empty bars displayed.
B) It's winter at your neck of the woods, and the self discharge rate is much lower in cold temperatures.
But all you people with Vectrixes standing around over winter can try it out:
Let your Vectrix stand unused for months (after a full charge); then try to top-up the battery and note what it does, how long it takes and how much energy is consumed in the process; I guess it will only take about 3 minutes, then the charger will turn off and claim that the battery is full.
Then drive your Vectrix around close to home, do not expect to get very far, though!
And be aware that you might be charging the weakest cells in reverse very early on during the ride.
I would not do this!
I would charge the Vectrix to 40% SOC (7 or 8 bars or so) before storage, then charge fully including all stages of charging before riding.
I would only do a short ride for the first trip, about 5km, then charge fully again.
The same for the second and third trip.
After that I would keep the next few trips to less than 3/4 of the previous (= pre-winter) range.
And always stop immediately if there is performance loss after lengthy storage - some cells will have self discharged more than others and can be destroyed if you keep on riding when they are empty. The voltage drop could be insufficient for the electronics to notice it, particularly if the low cells are spread evenly through the three monitored sub-strings in the pack.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
According to the people who make these things, (page 40 of the owners manual) the Vectrix should be fully charged before storing, and should not be left more than three months without recharging.
If your charger has a memory such as Mik suggests, it might be a good idea to ride the bike around the block, or simply turn it on for a few minutes before charging, to allow the charge graph to acurately read the battery.
Does anyone have a link to the online manual version?
And how about the add-on instructions for the Oct 2008 software update - is that available somewhere, or could someone scan and post it here, please?
I would not say that the manual is written by the people who make the Vectrix. It is written by the people who market the Vectrix. They want to sell, and they want you to believe their "Unplug and Play" slogan, because the reality of good battery care is slightly more complicated and could scare off some prospective buyers!
In my experience the charge indicator does not drop down to a more realistic level with in few minutes. It reduces at the same speed as if the battery was full, until the battery voltage drops too low and a BaLPoR (= Battery Low Point Reset = Disappearing bars syndrome)occurs.
The problem is that the cells will most likely not be balanced after a long resting period, therefore some might get reverse charged before the string voltage drops low enough for the software to decide that it is time for a BALPOR.
The charger on the other hand is more flexible in it's approach depending on varying battery charge levels. It will vary the length of charging according to the actual battery voltage, not just according to some calculated (and often incorrect) value.
The approach I am suggesting aims at increasing the opportunity for the charger to equalize the 102 cells. In my experience it will only do this if the battery display is showing less than fully charged.
Just try it out after the winter break. Turn the Vectrix on and see what charge level is announced, then plug in the charger after a few minutes and see if it puts a decent amount of kWh into the battery. If it does not charge for several hours (with the speedo needle at least at 30km/h), then you know that your battery State of Charge (SOC) is out of sync with the charge indicator.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I doubt that my Vectrix will ever sit more than three weeks without moving at least 10 miles, so I wouldn't make a very good guinea pig for storage theories. However, I doubt that any company would allow themselves to be "marketed" out of business by having poorly written or downright damaging owner's manuals for their products.
I do agree that proper battery care can be complex, which is why I bought the Vectrix in the first place, rather than attempt feebly and blindly to build my own electric conversion. I do not wish to become an electronic genious just so I can save some gas, and by incorporating a computer driven system the Vectrix company has made it unnecessary for me to do so.
I don't know if there is any significance to this, but my brand new 2008 model Vectrix arrived with 6.5 miles on the odometer, yet showed half the battery level down on the guage, which made me wonder if it had been sitting for a while and lost that much juice, or if it were never topped off from the time it was built. When I got her home, I gave her an overnight charge, yet the next morning, the top bar was still missing from the guage. I rode her 10 miles, and parked her for another overnight charge. The next day, she showed a full tank. Today, I rode her 25 miles at speeds mostly around 90 to 95 KLM until she gave me the battery light, then I parked her with one bar left and est. range of 3 miles left (doubt that she would have gone three more miles). I am following your advice of working my way up to deep discharge (6.5, 10, & 25 miles) Tomorrow I'll ride her till she zeros out.
I don't know if it is because she's new, not "conditioned" or she's got the new software, but this one doesn't have the take-off power and speed that my 07 had, nor does she have the passing power at medium speeds that my 07 had. Still plenty of spunk to out run and out maneuver most of the zombie drivers out there, but just doesn't have the spark of the old one. I hope to see a bit of improvement there after the first hundred miles or so, but at least she does NOT appear to have the "empty bar" syndrome as the old one did.
Here's the last online owner's manual that I had access to (the newer ones have not actually changed, but have 8 to 10 different language sections to them so they are much larger)
http://www.moccsplace.com/vectrix/Vectrix-manual.pdf
While not "official" documentation, here's the info on the October release software:
http://www.moccsplace.com/vectrix/Oct_08_Software.pdf
I left my Vectrix sit in the garage 3 weeks ago with 9 bars full. I checked it 1.5 weeks ago and it fell to 8 bars. I checked again yesterday and it fell to 7 bars.
Very interesting!
When was your software last updated?
I wonder what the Vectux' charge indicator is going to announce when I finally put the batteries back in....It's been three months now since I started my own "battery rework".
Maybe I am altogether wrong about the assumed inability of the Vectrix to monitor (and take into account) self-discharge.
The observations on which I based this assumption were always made when there was something else wrong with the scooter, which caused weeks of waiting (Three blown main fuses, one smoldering motor controller board).
Because the batteries become disconnected when the fuse blows (or when the motor controller is removed) the internal clock might have stopped running, and resumed as if nothing happened when the batteries were put back in.
I will test this when the Vectux is running again. I plan to leave it parked in the garage during hot days and use the car instead, because the heat is poison for it. It is also no fun at all to negotiate city traffic in the heat. There will most likely be some entire weeks without riding, when the Vectux batteries will be at a relatively constant 30degC.
The Manual-BMS (M-BMS) I am building will allow me to monitor the battery temperature during storage as well as all module voltages and some individual cell voltages. I might even be able to determine how much imbalance is introduced by prolonged self-discharge periods.
The M-BMS looks and behaves like Medusa's Head at the moment:
Every time I solve one problem, another two pop up.....usually related to packing a lot of stuff into little space without blocking the cooling air flow.
I think it's what they call "The tyranny of numbers" in electronics.
102 cells in series is a nightmare of sorts...
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
The manual was next to useless when I got my first Vectrix in 2007. The newer version you linked to is vastly improved and contains much of what has been discussed on V over the last year.
What happened to your old Vectrix?
I hope the new one improves until it's as good as your first one!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
It is September's 2008 software.
The bike is stored in a 2nd ground floor garage in my apartment block. Ambient temperature is aprox. 10'C. The battery charge is currently at 7 bars, but I intend to do 60 minutes charge in the near future, somewhere in the vicinity of 6 bars.
My state (Alabama) is one of a couple of states in the US that flatly refuses to recognize the non-standard 2007 VIN scheme. After four months of negotiations, and no results, I was about to face fines and traffic violations, and be forced to keep the Vectrix off public roads, so Vectrix allowed me full original purchase value on a trade in, and my dealer discounted the price of an 08 so that I could have a registerable bike at minimal expense to me. My assumption is that the 07 will be targeted as a demo at the next new dealership. They are still working on acceptance of the '07 numbers here, but it will be some time before any progress gets made.
I'm happy to have a legal tag and of course I can't complain about brand new tires, but I was quite happy and content with the old bike and old software. Like you, I accepted the fact that the last four or five bars meant nothing, but with this one, I gotta get a feel for the guage all over again, because it seems to be acurate all the way to the bottom. The low voltage decrease in performance seems to be more gradual on the new bike, rather than all of a sudden loss of speed or power on the old one, but again, I only have about 40 miles on the clock, so we still have to get to know each other better. I'm off for another total run down today! :-)
Nice surprise. I just completed a second "Deep Discharge" and got 33.6 miles at speeds mostly over 50mph. Bars disappeared progressively all the way to the bottom, and est. range got down to 1 mile before it went to zero. It actually took me another mile while on zero and no bars, but I had to milk it to keep it above 20mph.
She dropped her max speed to about 40 when she got to the last two bars, then at one bar, she went down pretty fast, but I made it to 31 miles before only the last bar was showing. My 07 never gave me more than 26 miles at those speeds, so I'm guessing that the slightly slower throttle response might be helping matters there.
Same experience on my end. Thanks to you letting me experience your 2007 on my actual commute I now enjoy my own 2008 Vectrix. I get home from work each day after a 30 mile roundtrip from Hoover to Birmingham and have about 5 bars left which still carry actual range. When I push further I'll get to about 38-40 miles at 40-45 mph average. Actually better than I expected. And it is hilly here in Birmingham!