Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

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RaDy
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Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

As has been mentioned, over rechrging the battery, even if its done very slowly by the vectrix,is not good for it.
So without thinking of it too much, the other day i reached to the conclusion that the best way of doing the equalization process was by doing it separately from the charge.
I came to this thought because once a week when i have to take my Vectrix in the morning to work, i find it is still charging and i have to interrupt it always in its "EO" process, when i reach back home i plug it in with the timer for it to start at 04:00 AM and again next morning i have the same problem, again its equalizing.If i let it finish(as i do when i can) then next morning theres no problem its charged and ready to go. Again after a week or 10 days same process.
But this is not a good procedure for the battery, because after 4 hours of charging, its hot and stressed and then it has to withstand even more stress with an hour or two of Equalizing.So the idea is that when it needs to equalize the best thing is to have it fully recharged but not hot, so we have to wait 2 or 3 hours for it to cool down to a normal temperature (not more than 30c i suppose)after the charge.Then we can put a delay of 30mins with the right brake(to cool it even more)and plug it so the equalizing starts with a Full but cool battery!
Its a fuss, but you only need to take this special care once every 10 days or so and i think your batteries will appreciate it.
Please anyone who understands about these things, correct me if im wrong.
Thanks
Rag

Mik
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Could those rides with newer firmware version please comment if RaDy's approach is useful?

I am not certain if I understand this correctly: If the EO (= Equalization charge) is interrupted before it has finished, will it always run at the end of the next charging event?
If yes, will it start from the beginning and attempt a full EO charge (how long is a full EO charge???), or will it remember how far it got the last time (or even remember the sum of several previous attempts), and will it therefore only equalize for the remaining part of the EO charge that was "aborted"?

Will it go into "EO" charging mode each time you plug it in until it managed to finish once?

PS: I have added this thread to the Vectrix Collaborative Handbook, so try to stay on topic or take the discussion to a new thread, please!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

AndY1
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

If I understood the new software manual correctly, the bike does a 1 hour active cooling period prior to EO charging so that the temperature reaches as close to 24'C as possible.

jmap
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

If I understood the new software manual correctly, the bike does a 1 hour active cooling period prior to EO charging so that the temperature reaches as close to 24'C as possible.

But there is a longer EO charging every 10 driving hours (or so). This cycle will take 4 hours.

AndY1
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Does that heat up the battery that much?

RaDy
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

I am not certain if I understand this correctly: If the EO (= Equalization charge) is interrupted before it has finished, will it always run at the end of the next charging event?
If yes, will it start from the beginning and attempt a full EO charge (how long is a full EO charge???), or will it remember how far it got the last time (or even remember the sum of several previous attempts), and will it therefore only equalize for the remaining part of the EO charge that was "aborted"?

Will it go into "EO" charging mode each time you plug it in until it managed to finish once?

As far as i have been able to check, it tries to finalize one whole Equalization, so yes, it does restart every time if you keep on interrupting it.
Reffering to whether it has memory and starts from where it left, i think the answer is No, because every time it starts to equalize it has a different situation.Anyway this is not comfirmed because i would have to check how many hours it takes in both cases.

R
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Oh Rag! How lucky you are to have a place where you can plug the Vectrix every night. I owe a motorbike parcel in a collective parking area and I don't find a legal way to install a miserable plug in it, I can only charge twice per week at my parents parking for just 1,5 hours.
No equalization is possible.. sure this is not good for my battery...

garygid
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

What actually happens during the "long" equalization phase?

With no every-cell BMS, how can it really cell-equalize at all?

Thanks, Gary

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

AndY1
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

What actually happens during the "long" equalization phase?
Thanks, Gary

The battery is being charged at 150W (0.04C). The cells that are already charged give out heat, those that aren't, still charge.

jmap
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way
What actually happens during the "long" equalization phase?
Thanks, Gary

The battery is being charged at 150W (0.04C). The cells that are already charged give out heat, those that aren't, still charge.

I can confirm this. The battery gets real hot in this phase, maybe because they are nicely equalized already. I will try to record the next long charge. The last one took about 10 hours (between the pre delay and the final phase). What a waste of energy and battery stress...

AndY1
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Yep, if they had used the balancer in the Vectrix, no Equalization Charge would be necessary.

Edit: Jmap, does the bike give any indication when plugged in or even before that, that the charge is going to include Equalization?

jmap
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Yep, if they had used the balancer in the Vectrix, no Equalization Charge would be necessary.

Edit: Jmap, does the bike give any indication when plugged in or even before that, that the charge is going to include Equalization?

No. I didn't noticed anything... The counter waits for time defined in pre-charge delay, the charge phase begins and ends. One more hour (maximum) delay for colling down, then equalizing phase (every 10 hours of riding) begins and ends 4 hours later. There are some more stages but I still didn't "debugged" them...

clagros
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Hi,
Sorry for bothering you with this very basic question, but I want to get this clear.
I just try to understand what is the equalization charge, when it should be done and why, if it is done automatically or if is needed to 'force' it and if so, how. (Or how to stop it if needed).
Taking a look to the Vectrix manual, troubleshooting section:
"Charger and battery unsynchronized: Run bike until battery icon blinks and fuel gauge resets to ‘0’ and charge bike."
Does this mean that I need first almost to kill the battery and then recharge it? If so, how long that session will take and what could happen if I need to interrpt it in the middle?
After eq session, is the range similar, better of worse? Do I need re-run 5 deep discharges then?
Any additional things?

Thanks!
Claudio

RaDy
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

The equalizing is automatic. After certain hours of use or maybe other factor also it will automatically equalize after a full charge has been completed.(indicated by EO in the display) only latest firmware.
Everything is goes perfectly normal and is more or less fine for your batteries unless you mix the following ingredients :
1. Fully discharged Batteries after a hard drive(Uphill,continuos max speed) (Battery pack will be hot and stressed)
2. On a very hot summer day, when air is hot and sun hits the bike (Battery pack has difficulty in refrigerating)
3. You start recharging immediatley and when finished, Battery starts an Equalization.
If these three happen at the same time, you might end up with a 42ºc or 45ºc Battery which is not good for it!
About the 5 deep discharges depending on different dealers they say different things, so nothing clear for the moment. But i think the latest firmware overprotects the Battery for it to last longer, so if you have the lates firmware where acceleration, range and voltage usable range, have all been reduced, then i dont think its bad to deep discharge or at least to end up with 1 bar after every use. With this behaviour we are probably only using 65% of the Battery. the rest is 5% on the "higher" end (state of charge) for avoiding overcharging and possible regenreative braking energy and then a 30% margin on the "lower" end. So when we deep discharge we are actually leaving the Battery at a 30% state of charge.
Off course if you dont need to discharge it uptill 1 bar is left, then your Battery Life will surely be longer.
Raj

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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

I too believe the batteries are well protected against over dscharging. With the old software I was able to discharge down to 109 volts doing a run where 15 mph was max speed on level ground. With new software (and my batteries are new) the same discharge conditions bring the battery voltage to 121. The new software allows me to give a good cooldown before charge starts. I never charge when outside temp is high and/or sun is on scooter. I always charge in my garage (cooler) at night. For me that is a 5 hour delay.

clagros
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Oh! great answers, thanks!
How do I set the delay up and down and what are the recommended values?
Mine is set 1 hour, but after the last charging overnight batteries were 47C!
Yesterday and today batts are 36C most of the time.

From the answers, I can see that is not a good idea to begin charging immediately after the ride, letting the batts cool down. Is not this was done automatically by the fans when plugging the bike?
I figure out that's the meaning of the delay. Anyway, I saw that the bike does gain current in despite of the delay...

Thanks again for your help,
Claudio

jmap
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Re: Equalizing the Vectrix Battery in a better way

Oh! great answers, thanks!
How do I set the delay up and down and what are the recommended values?
Mine is set 1 hour, but after the last charging overnight batteries were 47C!
Yesterday and today batts are 36C most of the time.

From the answers, I can see that is not a good idea to begin charging immediately after the ride, letting the batts cool down. Is not this was done automatically by the fans when plugging the bike?
I figure out that's the meaning of the delay. Anyway, I saw that the bike does gain current in despite of the delay...

Thanks again for your help,
Claudio

Ouch! That must hurt!
Try to do a refrigerated charging

Yet Vetrix told me that NiMH batteries should not work with temperatures above 40ºC. Damage can happen in these cases. But, the NiMH batteries used on Vectrix can work with temperatures above 50ºC, and damage can only happen above 60ºC. Above 80ºC, the damage will be permanent.

What about that? Do we have special NiMH batteries? I will continue trying to keep temperature bellow 30ºC. Just to be sure, do the refrigerated charging if possible when temperatures are too high.

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