Serious XM-3000 problem

25 posts / 0 new
Last post
sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Serious XM-3000 problem

Hi Guys,

I am having a problem with my XM-3000. When I accelerate, from 0-18mph I get a horrible loud grating sound from the motor along with diminished torque and top speed. Sometimes I have to push the wheel to get it started. I don't know what could be causing it. I checked the hall sensor wires and they are all sending a 0 or 5V signal depending on wheel position. That leaves only two possibilities that I can think of:

1) Hall sensor is out of allignment
2) Something broken in the motor controller

Attached is a video of the problem. Has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks everyone for your help.

Zapdos
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 16:41
Points: 34
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

It sounds as though one of the magnet pieces on the inner diameter of the wheel hub may have become dislodged. As I recall, these are just tack welded into place. The wheel is fairly easy to remove but the hall sensors and associated wiring are very delicate. I ended up replacing all mine and resleeving the wiring through the hub.

garygid
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 1 month ago
Joined: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 23:25
Points: 441
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

With everything turned off and the bike on the center stand,
turn the rear wheel slowly. What do you feel and hear?

Suggestion: Get it fixed before riding further to avoid making it worse.

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

With the power off, the wheel turns freely as always. No unusual sounds. Tomorrow I'll check the transistors or output phases with a scope.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 5 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

What about with the power on? Is it hard to turn? If so, then you might have a short between the phases of the motor.

EDIT: Never, mind - I withdraw that...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

mf70
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, December 1, 2006 - 09:01
Points: 712
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

I haven't seen the inside of an Extreme hubmotor, but the motors I HAVE seen held their magnets in place with epoxy. Some better ones supplement the epoxy with brass hold-downs on each side of the magnet pieces. (Never any welding!)

Magnetic force holds the magnets in place. They will let the motor rotate freely until power is applied, then the new magnetic fields will pull the magnet piece from its position and generate the interference you heard. These magnets are VERY strong. Even after the epoxy fails, you will barely be able to move the magnet.

I'd apply very light power shile holding the wheel still, and see if it rotates smoothly. I bet it won't.

JB-Weld will do pretty well to hold a magnet.

Mark

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Well there's your problem....
img189.jpg
img190.jpg
img191.jpg

Opened the controller today and saw a row of melted transistors, and some blown traces..
72V mod + overcharged battery due to charger fault = :-(
Sorry about pic quality, the camera phone was all I had handy.
For anyone wanting to work on the motor controller, be sure to discharge the caps with a resistor before getting to work.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

Bruce_Wayne
Offline
Last seen: 13 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 17:45
Points: 67
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Had a similiar issue with my ze-2000 controller. Only after I repaired the traces with cutup strips of metal tape, the throttle worked again for about 5 miles then died and led me back to intermittant throttle cutout. Now it's completely dead.

I'm looking at either a kelly or curtis controller replacement < $200 with possible regen for mine. I don't even see the point in trying to repair something that was designed to crap out after 1 year of use even without overvoltage mods.
I don't find it coincidental everyone who has these bikes winds up replacing the controller within a couple years. After the battery issue, this is not a surprise to me.

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

I replaced all the FETs (with the same 100V guys, but was tempted to get the more expensive 120V version), repaired the traces, replaced a few surface mount resistors, repaired a melted heat sink(!), connected it for testing, and... nothing.. Just a thump when the power is turned on, and nothing.

The wheel was physically hard to turn. Was something broken in the wheel too I wondered? I had put an enormous amount of stress on it while driving with a broken controller. It spent about 1/3rd of its energy trying to drive backwards every degree of rotation, while emitting a popping sound as loud as a lawn mower. I tested the hall sensors, they were working. I tested the resistance on the phases looking for a short, nothing unusual.

I felt defeated. $60+7 hours of work. Controller 1 Sparc5 0. I shut off the 60A circuit breaker, thinking maybe one of the phases are energized and that's what's giving me the resistance. It's still hard to turn! How can this be? The capacitors inside the controller can't provide that much power without the battery. The resistance the wheel gave felt bumpy, like turning a volume knob that gives tactile feedback for each increment. I shook the wheel and listened for anything loose. Nothing rattled. I paced around a bit thinking what could it be? I really didn't want to take off that motor.

About half an hour later, I gave the motor another go. Same thump and nothing. The controller wasn't getting hot, that's good news for my new FETs. That's when it occurred to me, some phases might be connected. Sure enough that's what was happening. The hub motor was in generator mode. That's why it was hard to turn even with no power being sent to the motor. I disconnected the controller, and the wheel turned freely again. I connected a phase and it was stiff. The hub motor makes an efficient generator, someone should rig a windmill to it.

I opened the controller again, I don't have a schematic and I was unable to find any broken parts that need fixing. :-( The new Kelly controller should come today.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Bruce,

Yeah, would it kill them to offer a little FET protection? Perhaps an overtemp shutdown?

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 6 days ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

So, the controller is shorting the phases together somewhere, but at least the places it could be doing that is fairly limited, right? Good luck with the troubleshooting.

My e-max controllers continue to work after 3 years, and on one, 7500 miles. The battery current limit was raised about 20% on them and they are run at 60 volts, up from their stock 48 volts. The only change needed was to upgrade the 1000uf phase filter capacitors to 100 volt versions. The only trouble was an incident of the (pre-upgrade) capacitors shaking off the board on one of them after just 1000 mi.

Mine do have an over-temperature protection switch mounted on the heat sink.

dzehrbach
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 4 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 17:53
Points: 92
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

My bet is a common problem from overheating. XM & Mountain Chen is an amps junky. like big amps to the motors. Lots of heat. There is no cooling in a hub motor. zero. When the motors get hot the aluminum grows. Worse, at 150 C the epoxy that holds the magnets in place lets go and you get clearance problems. Having to push to start and other symtoms sound like this.

The outer windings are on a separate ring that bolts to the center hub. I recently had a dealer for a competing brand ask for help as he had 82 bikes where the bulk of the bolts had never been installed at the factory by the company he got them from.

A complete new motor, hub and all is about $300. If the center section is not damaged you can just buy the outer rim and magnet section.

Hard to diagnose a patent over the internet.

DH Zehrbach
Zehrbach Engineering.

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

So, the controller is shorting the phases together somewhere, but at least the places it could be doing that is fairly limited, right? Good luck with the troubleshooting.

+1 short between phases.

Given that the controller was driving one phase backwards for some time, id check to make sure the short isnt inside the motor, and not the controller.

easy test, disconnect the controller, and try to turn the motor.
If its still hard to turn, you need a new motor aswell.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

I gave up troubleshooting the old controller, it's got to be one of the surface mount parts that is causing the problems. I bought a $300 replacement controller from Kelly (KEB72331,100A,72V,3.3KW /Regen). Connecting it was frustrating, I had to make a mounting plate (mine is from some painted steel burger alarm cabinet) the new controller is about half as long as the old one. The hall sensor wiring they give isn't the same color scheme Mountian Chen uses. After hours of cursing and sweating in 100 degree humid Chicago weather testing motor phase wire combinations and hall sensor combinations it was running albeit it in reverse. But no matter, I can learn to drive around town in reverse.. well maybe not. More switching of motor phases and hall wires this time during dusk. I found there is no combination that makes the motor run at all except the one that runs it in reverse. So I grounded the reverse pin of the controller (ground is activate on Kelly) and now the controller thinks it's driving the motor in reverse which is really forward.

I haven't got variable regen active yet, right now i have it set to 20% regen when the throttle is at 0V. I like it actually since I never coast to a complete stop ever. To make variable regen work I have to invert the logic of the break signal and insert a relay to switch the throttle input to the break input. It's a project for later.

Kelly makes a nice controller but they lie about their specs. It never draws 100A, maybe the capacitors inside it can make it output 100A for a split second, MAYBE. It doesn't even blow the 60A fuse. The over current shutoff happens whenever I accelerate hard. Top speed remains the same, and now I can run 72V without putting the controller to the edge of its safety margins.

The original controller has FETs in parallel give it a rating of 400A @ 100V, the controller is probably rated for at least 200A but limited in the software so it doesn't discharge ruin the batteries by running them so hard.

The motor sounds pretty much exactly the same now as it did running on Mountain Chen's controller 16 kHz

IMG_4632
Drilling the mounting plate

IMG_4633
New Kelly Controller being wired in.

IMG_4629
Mountin Chen's busted controller with all new FETs.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 08:05
Points: 347
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Hey spark, I'm up in Lindenhurst IL so near by. I recently converted to a Kelly controller also. My harness was color coded to match the 3500li for phase.Blue ,yellow, green the power supply is purple instead of red. To activate variable regen I used a standard autoparts relay hooked up to the brake switch so when you activate the brake switch it grounds the BRK SW on the controller. It works great. I just mounted the thumb throttle backwards on the left mirror post as a trigger brake. There's a photo on the activating regen thread. Thanks for the tip on the solder wicking I did it and it worked great. My friend who also bought a 3500li was...lets just say surprisedwhen I left him eating my dust. You might want to get a precharge resistor for that controller too. I had a problem with one of their 72v controllers because I didn't have one.

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Cool! Another IL electric scooter rider!

I'm with you on the pre-charge resistor, the manual says it can damage the controller without it. What problems were you experiencing without it?

How fast does your kelly 3500li go now?

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Got the variable regen working. Used a DPDT 12V relay to make the 12V break micro switch work on the kelly, as well as redirect the throttle SIGNAL wire from the throttle input to the break input. The result is when i pull the break handle, I can turn the throttle to adjust my regen. I'm very happy with it.. If anyone else makes the mod, be sure to put a diode across the relay coil so you don't risk frying something inside the controller.

The regen is a little bit psychologically hard to get used to. The wheel gives the same vibration it does when it's accelerating kinda tricking my mind into thinking that's what it is doing. The other particularity is I have to remember to let go of the throttle before the break or i'll lurch forward with whatever power I have the throttle set at. I'll get the hang of it no doubt.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Hi Sprac5,

how are you measuring motorside current? or are you just measuring battery side current?

What do you mean by "the over current shutoff whenever i accelerate hard"?

The controller should never cut-off, rather reduce output power until every thing is with limits.
so if you have low voltage on the battery side, it will reduce power until the battery voltage is above the programmed LV limit.
same thing for battery side current limit.

Having the controller cut-out, then cut back in is a bit of a worry, since the digital controllers (including the kelly ones i have seen)
arent implemented in this way.

The only time a "100A" controller will draw 100A on the battery side is when the voltage on the motor side is equal to the battey side, and none of the battery side limits are in effect.

I would not expect a "100A" controller to be able to blow a "60A" fuse in normal operation.
Even if you are climbing a hill steep enough that the controller is able to supply 100A at 72V (equivalent) to the motor, the controller will likely cut back due to over temperature, before the fuse gets close to blowing.

Out of curiosity, on the mountain chen controller picture you posted, i only counted 15 FETs. Is there a second row of FETs on the otherside?

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Hey Matt,

Using a copper bar on the battery side to measure current on the battery side.

The system definitely cuts off when accelerating hard. It's not due to under voltage, it occurs even when the batteries are fully charged and there is minimal voltage sag.

Yes, there are another 15 fets on the other side of the heat sink.

Cheers,

Jeff

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 2 months ago
Joined: Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:57
Points: 446
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

just a far guess but sound like the motor.
is out of sync i/e the turque drive might mave moved a fraction ???
kev

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 2 months ago
Joined: Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:57
Points: 446
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

ps these machines are very susceptible to water / damp serseptable.kev

Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 08:05
Points: 347
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Cool! Another IL electric scooter rider!

I'm with you on the pre-charge resistor, the manual says it can damage the controller without it. What problems were you experiencing without it?

How fast does your kelly 3500li go now?

One day I got on gave it some throttle, it went about a foot and died. Steven replaced it for me and I upgraded to a KBL12251. I'm getting 58mph with the controller set for 80% motor power and 50% battery power. That's at 28cells 93v. The acceleration is much improved. I've seen up to 10.5 kw to the motor on the cycle analyst. I can cruise at 50mph and be using about 3.3/3.5kw on good pavement. You start to notice how much more power you use on that grooved pavement that's ready to be repaved. That stuff really sucks the juice! Stay outa da potholes!

Bill

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 08:05
Points: 347
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Got the variable regen working. Used a DPDT 12V relay to make the 12V break micro switch work on the kelly, as well as redirect the throttle SIGNAL wire from the throttle input to the break input. The result is when i pull the break handle, I can turn the throttle to adjust my regen. I'm very happy with it.

Good idea to use the relay to divert the throttle signal. Hadn't thought of that. I think your way might be even better. I'm going to try it since My finger brake stopped working anyway.

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

sparc5
sparc5's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 4 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:29
Points: 243
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

Upgraded to the 8kw motor controller. The 3kw one was pathetically weak. I am extremely happy with the results. Gets up to 40mph in about 3 seconds, gotta hold on tight!

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

frederal
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 09:04
Points: 5
Re: Serious XM-3000 problem

I just bought one of these xm3100 on ebay from getscooters for $620.00 and I am worried about the quality. Although I have not yet received it I cant help but wonder if I may have made a mistake. It seems there are lots of complaints about xtreme scooters reqarding customer support and reliability. I have tried to call them many times and no one ever answers the phone and you have to leave a message that no one ever returns. CAN ANYONE TELL ME IF I HAVE MADE A MISTAKE BUYING THIS SCOOOTER?

Log in or register to post comments

Buy Ecotric bikes, get free accessories!


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • JoeBauers
  • lumpykeyword
  • Mrelectric
  • wanroy
  • copaji4473

Support V is for Voltage