Brammo .vs. existing scooters .vs. GPR-S

I agree the GPR-S is a great value for the money. Posted about it this morning. http://www.plugbike.com/2009/07/22/electric-motorsport-gpr-s/

What Brammo will bring to the table is built in Wifi, GPS, add-on peripherals such as a video camera, and an API. They are throwing out additional service ideas such as having Best Buy notifying you when you bike needs service based on analysis of diagnostics data pulled from the bike remotely.

Also, the Brammo has great styling and great fit and finish.

Is it all worth $3500 over the GPR-S? We will see what everyone thinks soon I guess. I would love to see a comparison of the technology in the bikes by someone who is up on that stuff.

David, I think one of the reasons mentioned by the hosts is a good one: styling. Styling is, of course, a matter of personal taste, and people have come down on both sides of the "love it or hate it" debate with the Brammo Enertia. It's very obviously a motorcycle, not a motor scooter. I like the way someone described the difference: on a scooter, you can put your knees together.

With regard to the price, $12000 is a lot, but also figure in the 10 percent federal tax credit and many states have additional tax breaks for EVs. Also, as we all know, the big cost is due to the batteries. Early adopters are used to paying a premium for the latest thing, and I predict that prices will come down as lithium-based battery tech improves, and as the production and competition ramps up.

With regard to speed, Brammo's CEO said just last week that it was capable 60 mph "plus." That "top speed" claim has been inching up over the last few months. The range is sufficient for the market at which it is directed: commuters. NHTSA had some figures that the average commute is something like 16 miles, and the average commuting speed was around 29mph.

Brammo's going to be coming out with two new vehicles - one is smaller, one is larger. The larger one will have two seats. That's about all I know on the subject.

I know a lot of people have been focusing on the price. I think that it is likely the company has done their homework and figured out that there are plenty of willing buyers. Bramscher doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would start this venture with stars in his eyes. Maybe you and I and much of the visforvoltage community aren't going to be rushing into Best Buy to grab this, but I think they will succeed. After reading your Vectrix series, I can see where the lack of focus and persistence seemed to trip them up. I don't see the same sort of thinking with Brammo.

There are more options now for EV's than there were a year ago and I am sure the story will be the same next year. Kudos to Brammo for developing their products, but they have some competition. GPR-S is a well priced option and so is Zero. Brammo is going to have to catch up to get to the 8k price point.

Zero actually seems to have been better thought out than the rest. Maybe because of their dirt bike roots. They have a several replacement parts and accessories on their site. This is pretty important considering most ev bike buyers are kind of on their own when it comes to maintenance and support.

I think the GPR-S is a great product, but Todd has some work to do. My emails to EMS have had no reply.

And now the Piaggio MP3 Hybrid is on the horizon.

After checking out Brammo's website I have to say that I'm not very impressed. The tech page had no info that was usefull. Maybe I missed it as I was in a rush but... no motor kw or make, Batt AH/volts, details about BMS, no regen, anything like a cycle analyst? For that price? Also I'm curious what people think about hub motors vs a/c drive. Are these bikes as quiet as a hub motor bike?

Also I think if we are going to be honest we have to calculate battery depreciation into mix for cost per mile.

I wouldn't pay 12 grand for a commuter bike just 'cause it looked pretty. If I was buying it because it looked like a bike and handled like a bike I couldn't justify the expense over a GPR-S. I really don't care for features such as Wifi, (really, wifi?!?!?), or GPS. I couldn't justify paying the money for a Tesla either, but at least you're getting performance and range for your money that you can't get anywhere else. Brammo aren't in that position, as far as I can tell. If you wanted a commuter I'd go for a maxi-scooter. A bike for the weekend, a GPR-S. Or vice-versa.

Also I think if we are going to be honest we have to calculate battery depreciation into mix for cost per mile.

Agreed, but since battery costs are never publicized, that's usually close to impossible, and I highly doubt that is an accident.;)

I bought a GPR-S that was pretty much a stock 72 volt bike except they put 60ah batteries in it instead of 40ah. I haven't received it yet, so I don't have much experience to share yet. However, I do want to chip in that when I was at Electric Motorsport, I was also shown a bike that was, I believe, built to be similar to the bike Electric Motorsport used to win the open class in the Isle of Man race. I was given to believe that the bike could go up to 90 mph and if you held it down to 50 or 60 mph, you could then get some pretty good range out of it. I didn't get to ride the bike, but it was ridden by the EM rep as I test rode other bikes, and it left those way behind.

So rather than just say that EM offers a comparable bike for less, it might also be added that they also probably offer a significantly better bike for just $1,000 more than the Brammo...

At the moment what seperates GPR-S is the fact that it is pretty customizable and upgradeable. None of the other bikes to date have shown that they can be ordered to specifics. GPR-S comes the closest and even if EMC were to disapear, nearly all of the components are based on off the shelf components. Can you do that with the Brammo or Zero?

BretA

I was expecting more from Brammo. This bike has been hyped in the news for too long, I think I built in extra expectations due to this. A reason to stay stealth imo. I like the EMS GPRS simply becuase they appear to have a started with more off the shelf components rather than attempt a clean slate design. So my expectations for the GPRS is less. I kind of expect to hear about issues with all the different GPRS off the shelf options. It kind of like Microsoft windows to not always work nicely. Brammo on the other hand I expected more Apple like proprietary integration.

But for 12K, I would expect more power, range, and speed besides looking integrated. Although I will say the Brammo does look nicer than anything else I have seen to date. Based on the NIMH Vectrix scooter specs, this Brammo just underwhelms my senses. On the Brammo, I assumed newer battery technology would catapult this bike to new levels of performance, but it looks like they chose a diet zen design of smaller is better. I dunno, but I think this bike is going to have a rough time unless they built in a really high profit margin, and planed to lower their prices later.

I agree with you about EM vs Brammo. People haven't been waiting for a new motorcycle frame, they just want a new way to power the frames that have already been developed.

I did see an article today that pointed out that Brammo intends to lower its price to $6,500 when it it's factory goes into full production: Brammo gets $100,000

I agree with you about EM vs Brammo. People haven't been waiting for a new motorcycle frame, they just want a new way to power the frames that have already been developed.

I did see an article today that pointed out that Brammo intends to lower its price to $6,500 when it it's factory goes into full production: Brammo gets $100,000

I saw that too, and I wonder how they expect to sell any at $12K when they advertise that they'll be $6500 sometime in the future. That's a hefty margin to pay just for being the first kid on the block with one.

Quantity = lower prices. Nearly every high priced item has claimed that the price would come down once volume was up. Look at High Def TV's, DVD Players, Computers... The bigger question is whether there are enough interested consumers willing to pay that 12K to help drive that cost down.

BretA

It sounds like the newspaper article didn't get it exactly right. The lower price reflected the federal tax credit, an Oregon credit that is still in the works, and a battery leasing program which hasn't been rolled out yet. See the bottom update on this article.