XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

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Curious
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XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

I haven't bought this scooter yet, but I'm almost certain I will within the next day or two. I found an Internet source where it's on sale from for $2350 + $200 shipping!

For me, the prospect of going 50+ MPH would be great for taking the occasional trip on the highway to the next town 11 miles over. The XM-5000li could do this natively, but it's way too expensive at $5500 when I can seemingly buy and upgrade an XM-3500li for a little over $4100.

  1. So, from those who know more about the subject, I'd like to know if I can add the Kelly 6.0KW brushless hub motor upgrade? Also I'd like to confirm I'd need the 13-inch size.
  2. Of course I would need the Kelly 150A brushless DC motor controller to match the power requirements. I noticed it has regen, but how have people tied in the regen? Another regen-break lever? Are the brakes cable-driven like on a bicycle, or are they electronically controlled?
  3. From there, I would like to add four more of the 40ah Thundersky batteries. Is there room for these, or would this require a frame modification? I've seen people posting about having 8 additional cells, but I haven't seen anything on how they fit them.
  4. I'm looking at the 24-cell BMS from Rechargeable Lithium Power, but what charger should I be looking at? Also, does the DC/DC converter need to be replaced, and if so what brand should I be looking at?

Finally, is there anything else I should be considering?

My pricing so far:
XM-3500li Moped + $200 shipping = $2550
6.0 Kelly brushless hub motor upgrade = $599
24-120V,150A, brushless motor controller = $499
4 additional 40A Thundersky batteries = $256
24-cell BMS = $230
DC/DC converter ???
Smart charger ???

For a total of $4134 + some shipping. That seems like a steal to me compared to the premade scooters out there!

marylandbob
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

See this:"Item number: 360203302383"-- Why not just buy a VECTRIX? There is one on E-bay, located in New Jersey, ending soon!-Bob
PS:LESS than $4,000.00

Robert M. Curry

antiscab
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

Of course I would need the Kelly 150A brushless DC motor controller to match the power requirements. I noticed it has regen, but how have people tied in the regen? Another regen-break lever? Are the brakes cable-driven like on a bicycle, or are they electronically controlled?

a 150A controller will be gutless in a large scooter.
i suggest a minimum of 400A.
remember, this is motor side, not battery side.
the battery side current is always lower than motorside.

there are three ways to setup regen:
1) regen at 0 throttle
2) regen when the brake lights come on
3) second throttle for regen.

its your choice which to use (you can use a combination).

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Curious
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

Why not just buy a VECTRIX? There is one on E-bay, located in New Jersey, ending soon!-Bob
PS:LESS than $4,000.00

I see there are currently three VX-1's on Ebay for less than $4000. I like their styling. Thing is, they're all the 2007 model year. They have NiMH batteries as opposed to the LiFePO4 packs the XM-3500li has, making it over 400 pounds. My wife will be riding and she would prefer the lighter weight of the XM.

Ok for an update, I see that I would only need the 4.5KW motor to get me to 55ish, but let's compare its efficiency to the 6.0KW motor.
These are 4.5KW : 6.0KW efficiencies

  • 15MPH- 61% : 66%
  • 25MPH- 73% : 78%
  • 35MPH- 80% : 87%
  • 45MPH- 82% : 88%
  • 55MPH- 40% : 87%
  • 65MPH- N/A : 81%

You can see that the 6.0KW motor is more efficient across the board than the 4.5KW motor.

For some reason I didn't see the DC/DC section on Kelly's website before. I see a 300Watt, 72-12v converter for $130 and an 8A charger for $200. I've attached an Excel spreadsheet that shows the parts, costs, and links. Would this be everything I need? Do I need Assemblies/Contactors/Fuses? How about battery interconnects? Perhaps there is a tutorial somewhere by someone who has made an XM-4500 conversion?

Thanks!

Curious
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

a 150A controller will be gutless in a large scooter.
i suggest a minimum of 400A.
remember, this is motor side, not battery side.
the battery side current is always lower than motorside.

Thanks, Matt. I had no idea - and actually I didn't see that the 150A controller was only rated for 4.5KW. Kelly has a 200A controller rated to 6KW and I would assume that this is the controller that's meant to be matched to the 6KW motor. Kelly also offers a 300A controller rated at 8KW, but would I actually see a benefit from using this one?

The 6KW controller comes in regen/no regen models too. I think I would get the less expensive one and then just not worry about regen complexities...

jdh2550_1
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

I would recommend you go with the 4.5kW motor. We had serious over-heating issues with the 6kW. I don't have experience with the KEB line of controllers - you might be able to prevent the over-heating issue if you use a slow ramp rate for the throttle and also limit the motor current.

I took a brief look at your spreadsheet and it seems to cover the bases - I don't think you'll need any additional stuff. The batteries should come with interconnects. I didn't follow the links to BMS and Charger.

I would advise you to condition all your batteries before use (not just the 4 additional ones).

The VX-1 is a heavy bike and this might rule it out for you and your wife. However, it does ride significantly better than the XM-3500 / XM-5000 bike. The suspension and ride quality is far superior.

Forgive me one small mention of our product: our smallest bike is the C120e and would have a similar performance specification to your "XM-4500" (despite it being a 66V / 20 cell pack). It retails at $5,499 but it also carries a 5 year / 50,000 mile warranty on the batteries as well as other advantages. If you're at all interested then let me know.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Send me a message on the forum or contact me if you'd like to hear more of our experiences when we made our own "XM-4500" early in the development cycle of our C1x line.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

marylandbob
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

I think your wife should TRY a Vectrix! My sister had no problem with it, and you will not have to totally "Re-invent the Wheel" to get a LEGAL, over 60 MPH scooter. Controller amperage should be MUCH higher than 150 amps, if you expect good, reliable performance from a 6,000 watt motor at only 72 volts! (The 5.1 KW motor on the Vectrix has a peak input of around 25 KW, and draws as much as 230 amperes at almost TWICE your proposed voltage, so I would use at least a 500 amp controller at your lower voltage, if good hill-climbing performance is expected. There are Many technical considerations that you may be unaware of, such as the fact that electric motors generally can demand 3 to 5 times the average current for short periods, such as rapidly starting and accelerating on an uphill stretch, or carring a passenger uphill. (I would allow for this current, use a bigger controller, and a high-amperage charger, 15 amperes of more, for reasonable charge times. (Three hours or less)-Bob

Robert M. Curry

Curious
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

Just to be clear, I would never drive the 6KW motor at 100%. I don't need the 80MPH speeds it's capable of, nor do I need fast acceleration. I would speed-limit the moped to 55MPH (possible in the controller, right?), essentially making this a much more efficient 4.5KW motor (see my table above).

(4500watts * 5) / 72volts = 312 Amps

I don't think I would have overheating issues with running it at 75%. In any case, one of the individual components in the system will always be a bottleneck. In this case I'm wanting to make the bottleneck be the motor controller for the sake of efficiency. Let me know if I'm off base here. The other factor is Kelly doesn't offer controllers over 300A @ 72V. What other manufacturers should I be considering?

Thanks!

antiscab
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

I don't think I would have overheating issues with running it at 75%. In any case, one of the individual components in the system will always be a bottleneck. In this case I'm wanting to make the bottleneck be the motor controller for the sake of efficiency. Let me know if I'm off base here. The other factor is Kelly doesn't offer controllers over 300A @ 72V. What other manufacturers should I be considering?

http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_46&products_id=265

That is the controller i own currently.

The biggest brushless kelly controller i have seen is 120v 600A or 144v 400A.

if you get a controller that is too small, it will either fail almost immediately, or, overheat and cut back power.
never undersize your controller.
a bigger controller can be programmed to pretend to be smaller, but a smaller controller will just burn.

btw - all these ratings are peaks, not continuous.
The rating system for hub motors in China is maximum continuous power from a cold start for one minute before the motor overheats.

yes you should get the 6kw motor, just don't drive it too hard.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Curious
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_46&products_id=265

That is the controller i own currently.

The biggest brushless kelly controller i have seen is 120v 600A or 144v 400A.

Why would Kelly not have an appropriately sized ebike controller to match their ebike hub motor?

From what I can tell of your controller, it's meant to control two motors simultaneously, right? It has two of the multi-pin plugs which I'm assuming are each meant to go to a different motor. I admit I haven't read the installation manual though.

if you get a controller that is too small, it will either fail almost immediately, or, overheat and cut back power.
never undersize your controller.
a bigger controller can be programmed to pretend to be smaller, but a smaller controller will just burn.

I think it's bizarre that an 8KW controller could not adequately power a 6KW motor!

Actually, looking at Kelly kit packages, it looks like they DO match up the 6KW motor with the 8KW controller.
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=435
I do see, however, their specification page says 300A for 30 seconds (300*70 = 21KW - losses), and 150A continuously (150*72 = 11KW - losses). Is there an equation that determines required controller size from motor size?

I'd like to spend $400 vs $600 for the controller if possible and safe. As my costs creep up and over $5K, maybe I should just be looking at the KM-5000li (or a 2007 VX-1)...

Thanks for all your help!

antiscab
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

Why would Kelly not have an appropriately sized ebike controller to match their ebike hub motor?

From what I can tell of your controller, it's meant to control two motors simultaneously, right? It has two of the multi-pin plugs which I'm assuming are each meant to go to a different motor. I admit I haven't read the installation manual though.

I think it's bizarre that an 8KW controller could not adequately power a 6KW motor!

The ebike controllers just use smaller (undersized) caps to fit in a smaller case size, as the ebike ones are meant for bicycles, not motorbikes.
electrically, there is no difference between the ebike controllers, and the general controllers.

The motor i linked to is meant to control only one motor.
the second J pin is for a vehicle that has a CAN bus, however, i suspect its a feature yet to be implemented.

Actually, looking at Kelly kit packages, it looks like they DO match up the 6KW motor with the 8KW controller.
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=435
I do see, however, their specification page says 300A for 30 seconds (300*70 = 21KW - losses), and 150A continuously (150*72 = 11KW - losses). Is there an equation that determines required controller size from motor size?

I'd like to spend $400 vs $600 for the controller if possible and safe. As my costs creep up and over $5K, maybe I should just be looking at the KM-5000li (or a 2007 VX-1)...

There are a few things you need to keep in mind when sizing a controller:
1) peak motor side current
2) continuous power (this depends alot more on application than motor)

the reason an "8kw" controller cannot adequately power a "6kw" motor is because by true continuous ratings,
the "8kw" controller is more like 3kw, and the "6kw" motor is more like 3.5kw.

the ratings on both are highly temperature dependant.

The VX1s are not without their own flaws.
from a handling/riding perspective, they are better than any other electric scooter i have ever seen.
however, the battery chemistry used is fickle.

i have yet to see any xm-xxxx bike in real life, so i don't know how they handle.
if you have the chance, test both bikes.
i would be leaning towards the xm-5000li and adding a BMS, just because it has a more reliable chemistry.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Curious
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

Thanks antiscab for walking me through all those points. Yes, I am now leaning towards the XM-5000li. It has the range and speed I'm looking for. I checked out the Vectrix forums and was disappointed that they've gone bankrupt and can't even supply replacement batteries for their bikes. It makes me wary to know that I would be fending for myself if there were any defects. I'm trying to find a good place to buy the XM-5000li and a 21 or 24 cell (for future expandability) BMS.

Earlier in the year I made 500 watts of my own solar panels, along with a 10KW AGM battery bank, and a pure sinewave inverter rated to 1500W continuous power. I spent months working on it and I ended up spending more time with it than with my then-fiance, now-wife. I think it's a good idea to just buy the one I won't have to spend crazy amounts of time modifying. I was able to power my outdoor wedding with solar power though :)

The one problem with selecting a bike is there are no local dealerships so I have to go off of reviews, rather than test rides...

Iccarus
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

You could just get the 3500li and run it at 24 cells for 48mph or run at 28 cells and get about 54mph. The 3500w motor will take it, at least two of mine have. Just buy the 4.5kw hub motor if you burn up the stock one (which you won't unless maybe you push it on a big hill on a hot day) I'm running one with the stock controller and 28 cells and have 4000km on it (no regen) and another with a kelly KBL12251 that I rigged variable regen braking on and that has over 4000km also. The brakes aren't the best on the XM RMARTIN ECT so regen is worth the investment I think. I average about 7% regen and up to 14% in city driving. You will need to find the right charger for whatever number of cells you choose. I have mine rigged to run at 24 or 28 because I already had a 24 cell charger and just bought an additional 4 cell charger and charge the extra 4 separate, a little bit of a hassle. I think johns bikes are the best bet though unless you're real handy and want to work on you're bike allot. Vectrix are nice but need to go to lithium. Just my opinions.

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

Curious
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

I sent an email to Kelly Controllers. They recommended their 4.5KW motor, but also mentioned that it is available in high-torque and high-speed versions. The high-speed version can reach 100km/h (62MPH). I'm waiting on a performance spreadsheet from them. They also recommended matching up the 4.5KW motor with a 200A controller.

My goal here is to be as efficient as possible. How many miles / KWh are you getting Iccarus? Ideally I would like to push my bike to go about 45-50 miles at 35-40MPH and not be depleted more than 80% DoD. According to my calculations I would need to average 20 miles / KWh at that speed. I would like to travel to another town a couple times a year, but it wouldn't be a regular deal. If upgrading the motor to a 4.5KW gives me more efficiency and that equates to a longer range that would be worth it to me. I would sell the original motor and controller to recoup some of the costs.

Thanks!

Iccarus
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Re: XM-3500li 6000Watt Motor Upgrade?

Sorry I've been away from V for a while. 48kwh/mi at the average speed you're talking about. Here's a link to some of my figures.(which are rough)http://visforvoltage.org/forum/7315-0kw-pumped-through-xm3500li
I think your goal is achievable if you take it easy on the throttle, probably make that easy. Good luck. Don't forget to watch out for people in parking lots!

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

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