Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

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hguido1
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Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

I have been looking for an upgrade to the stock xb-600 motor. It seems that most of the motors available are for mopeds. The ebike type motors really arent more powerful than the stock motor. Goldenmotor says it has a 1000w motor mounted in a 12in rim so it should fit the back of the xb-600. It is just an ebike hub motor though and I am not sure how you would put the rear brakes on it. Maybe someone knows the answer to this?

I tried to measure the rear fork to see how wide it is but that is difficult with the wheel still attached. I think it's close to 8 inches wide. Does anyone know if the xm-3000 motors or any 3x10 hub motor for a moped will bolt on to the rear of the xb-600? I guess I should be concerned with the front wheel and putting 3x10 on their as well.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

I would think twice before using a 10" rim. even a higher powered one wont do you any good unless you bump up the Voltage. Actually, a 10" rim will most likely give u a LOWER top speed, but it would give u better acceleration. Also, I dont think these bikes would hold up too well going much over 35 mph. The front fork is not sturdy enough and the braking is not adequate for those higher speeds.

If you DO decide to go with a new motor, I would suggest a 12" rim and if need be you would have to go with a custom install of a disk breaking system. Considering there are spacers on the rear wheel, that is prolly a good bet to work unless the new motor is very wide.

I will say this again though....... Upgrading the motor will NOT do you that much good unless you up the Voltage as well!!!!! As far as the performance to price ratio..... MAYBE get 1-2 mph more and maybe a SLIGHT acceleration increase... ALL for the low low price of what???? $200???? I actually have no idea what the prices are.

If you wanted that kind of performance you should have bought an electric scooter!!! Unless of course you are trying to get around the license, registration, and insurance that an e-bike does not need... Then again... if that is the case trust me... you WILL eventually get caught by a cop. Going 30-35mph is way too easy to notice and or clock over the 20mph limit that would come up in court. Try it if you want, but like I said, the cost and possibility of getting caught is NOT worth it!!!!!

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

Actually.... What is the Amperage and Wattage rating on your controller? If i recall its 800W and 40A? Is that Motor side?
If it can only deliver 40A to the motor you wont get a HUGE increase in speed, but you will prolly hit the 35mph barrier.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

Sixpax, Nice to here from you again. My controller is 45amp max and 84v. 1500watts of power is the rating. I didn't think of the tire diameter problem going from 12" to 10". All the 10" motors I have seen have a disc brake on them and they are about 200mm wide. If that would fit then the braking problem would be solved. I am not sure what could be done about the front fork problem you mentioned. Goldenmotor has a motor on a 12" wheel that is rated at a 1000w at 48v so that would be an option to overvolt to 84v. I see some have done it on ebikes with a spoked 26" rim. Goldenmotor uses the same hub motor just different rim sizes. That would get me to 35mph top speed. I am getting 29 to 30mph now with the stock motor and 72v. I could try 84v with stock motor but I think either the motor or the wires would fry at some point.

How do you attach the brakes from the stock hub motor to a new hub motor or does the new hub motor have to have it's own drum or disc brakes when it's made?

I agree doing 35mph is way over the 20mph that these bikes are limited to by law, but if they can be modified them up to 35mph for a couple hundered dollars it is way cheaper than buying a xm3100 for $1800. I guess my next question would be how could you license them so you wouldn't get a ticket at that speed.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

As far as the brakes go... I doubt the existing brakes would work on a new motor, so it would have to come with its own system or you would have to do a lot of customizing. As far as registering it, you would need to go to the DMV and ask about that, it varies by state etc. but it would need to be registered and have a tag on it to make it legal. I just think the front fork has way too much play in it to be stable at higher speeds. Dont know if there is really a way to fix that without some pretty major mods to it.

It sounds like if you can find a nice 1000-1500W 12" rim motor with some brakes on it that would do you rather well. You for SURE do not want to go 10" rim unless you found some new tires that will still make it about 16" overall diameter.

At 84V and the 45A controller with a 1000-1500W motor I could easily see it doing 35mph if not more. The reason I like the actual stock scooters rather than upgrading an e-bike is this.... The frame, brakes, etc. are made to go those speeds. A lot of them use Lithium batteries increasing performance and range, and are just overall much sturdier. By the time you buy another battery to goto 84V, the new controller, new motor, relays, tires, etc. I bet you will be creeping close to the $1800.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

I think your right on the speed being more than 35mph. I thought I read on here that someone said that the 1000w hub motor from goldenmotor would start around 24mph at 48v. If it goes up 5mph for every 12v added then 40mph would be close. I think I could install a disc brake to the hub like they use on regular bicycles for the brake problem. I will have to look into that further. I paid $110 for the controller shipped , $120 for two batteries so $180 for three. $50.00 for charger. I paid $1050 delivered for the scooter. So about $1400 not counting the disc brakes that would need to be ordered. Your right it get's close to the $1800 price and I will still have sla batteries. It is fun to play around with though.

Here is the thread that refers to the golden motor doing 40mph posted by captainslug
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4275-72v-35mph-xtreme-xb-600-video-link-here?page=4

I have an another question that I forgot to post a few weeks ago. I was riding one day when I first modded to 72v and the bike was much faster in low end torque that day. The seat actually got a little warm from the batteries but the top speed was still 30mph. It has never felt quick down low like it did that day and the batteries haven't made the seat feel hot again. Is it possible that I was drawing more current for some reason that day and now I am not. My controller will deliver 45amps max to the motor but I am sure it isn't or the motor would probably fry. Could something have made it draw more that particular day.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

I really dont know what causes it, but I have noticed that a few days after first upgrading or modding the bike, it seems to settle down. not sure if the batteries get "broken in" or even if it is the controller "breaking in", but I dont get quite the same acceleration or top speed as I did the first day or so after shunt modding and then going to 60V. Perhaps it is the SLA batteries having a little too much current drawn from them so they over heat a bit, losing a few cells in them, thus not having as high a voltage or ability to discharge as fast???? Perhaps that is why they made the seat hot, if the seat was hot the batteries would have had to be QUITE a bit hotter! Then after they lose only a few cells and not able to charge quite as high, that causes the whole battery pack to settle down to an amperage draw that it can actually handle......

Just a theory here but it is a sound one!!!!!

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

So maybe these sla batteries are why I am not having a problem with the stock motor running 72v with a 45amp controller. Maybe it is voltage sag from the batteries. Not sure what it was since it only happen one day. I am still getting the same top speed it just doesn't get there as quick as it did. Very Weird. I have well over a 100 miles now on the bike at 72v doing 30mph so I am very happy.

Are the stock brakes on xb-600 band brakes or are they drum brakes? How do you service them if they need replaced? I looked on x-treme website they don't mention them under parts for the bike. I would like to know so I can see what options if any I have to replace them on a different motor when I choose to upgrade again.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

They are both drum brakes with the outer portion built into the wheel. The drum pads are a separate assembly that fits into the wheel. Dont recall how you would replace them when necessary. Could be the whole assembly or a way to replace the drum pads.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

They are both drum brakes with the outer portion built into the wheel. The drum pads are a separate assembly that fits into the wheel. Dont recall how you would replace them when necessary. Could be the whole assembly or a way to replace the drum pads.

I wonder how well one could stop using just front brakes and the ebrake function from the controller. Which is nothing more than killing the power to the controller when applied.

mf70
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

If you want more power, get a bigger scoot. The frame of the XB-600 is too limber to take far above its stock speed. I've been riding two wheelers for 50 years, and the only time I've dumped a bike without something like a car in the way has been on the XB 600. Twice. High speed (relatively) shimmy when inputting large steering changes is magnified when the head bearings become loose. My Montgomery Ward Benelli in 1969 had a small echo of this, but it had a steering damper that would control it.

The XB 600 is a blast to ride, but the "flight envelope" has a definite speed limit.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

I think the xb-600 does pretty good riding at 30mph. I haven't had any problems at that speed. I have a 26" mountain bike with a crystalite 5303 rear hub motor and 48v. It does 36mph top speed, now that is a little scary. Speed wobbles a little bit at that speed. My xb-600 doesn't show those signs at that speed. I have gotten up to 35mph down a hill and it seems pretty stable to me. That is just my opinion. I see some guys are riding mountain bikes over 40mph. They probably think thats ok too. Not me to fast for a bicycle. I do think 35mph would be alright provided you didn't hit a pothole.

I wish I could put the crystalite hub motor on the xb-600. I diffently think it would break 40mph with that hub motor. That thing is a beast.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

Ok, I figuired it out. You buy a 12in dirt bike rim and wire a crystalite 5303 hub motor inside. You would have a spoked rear wheel. I haven't figured out how to mount the brake caliper on the xb-600 yet but you could use disc brakes or a rim brake if you could figure out how to mount that. The goldenmotor that comes in the wheel like the xb-600 looks pretty weak. I ran the simulator on ebikes.ca with 72v and it doesn't generate anymore than 1350w. The crystalite motor is at 2300w with same voltage. I wonder how many watts our stock motor is generating at 72v. I see these crystalite motors doing over 40mph on 26in rims. Would it be less than that on a 12in rim?

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

I have an another question that I forgot to post a few weeks ago. I was riding one day when I first modded to 72v and the bike was much faster in low end torque that day. The seat actually got a little warm from the batteries but the top speed was still 30mph. It has never felt quick down low like it did that day and the batteries haven't made the seat feel hot again. Is it possible that I was drawing more current for some reason that day and now I am not. My controller will deliver 45amps max to the motor but I am sure it isn't or the motor would probably fry. Could something have made it draw more that particular day.

Hguido1 .... As I suspected, the higher current drain does indeed affect the batteries. I found this post today...
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/7847-60v-scooters-destroy-batteries
It pretty much says that the higher and more consistently high current drain does indeed affect the batteries and their performance and life span. From the looks of it a few of the cells are partially damaged from the high discharge rate, and after those are dead then the battery simply cannot discharge as fast after only a few charges. Effecting the discharge rate capacity wont change the top speed, as that is determined by voltage. Only the high amperage discharge is affected, reducing the "power" and acceleration.

Its good to have closure on aspects of EV performance!!! :)

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

So, After some use then the batteries will no longer supply as much current as when new? Effectively reducing the acceleration of the bike? How does this effect the amount of current the controller can generate? Would you be able to still receive the max current of the controller for say a shorter amount of time or would it be permenanetly damaged to were you couldn't receive the max current of the controller.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

SLA batteries can only discharge at a certain maximum rate. Most are not made for "rapid" discharge or complete discharge. This is why they are much cheaper than Lithium based batteries, which can discharge at a much faster rate and can also discharge more fully without damage. At least this is what I have gathered from my experiences and reading posts on this forum. Not to mention it makes perfect sense, as to why your batteries got hot 1 or 2 times and no longer do. Dont get the amperage on the battery side and motor side confused. The controller uses capacitors to hold more charge and to supply greater voltage and amperage than the batteries can deliver, but only for a limited amount as they discharge.

So in effect... The batteries after being discharged at or above their maximum rate, are somewhat damaged or "conditioned" if you will, to the point that they balance themselves so that they will not and can not exceed a current draw to damage them. The controller however, will still do its work to store and discharge energy to supply the motor properly. I have no doubt you would see a nice performance increase if you used a 72V Lithium based battery pack, as they can discharge at a higher and more consistent rate.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

It sounds like when ordered new SLA batteries that it would be important to check the max discharge rate when choosing a battery. A lithium 72v battery pack would give me quicker low end speed but the top end would be the same since it is controlled more by the voltage than the current. Does that statement sound correct?

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

To a small degree yes..... Lithium is still better all around than SLA. Longer life, longer discharge(greater distance) fater discharge and faster charge. However, with the large weight difference, I could easily see a 1-4 mph increase in top speed, not the mention even FASTER acceleration. It is easier to move and keep moving a much lighter object. In the same space and less than half the weight you could prolly fit a 30ah lithium pack.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

2 ping lithium batteries 30ah 36v weight 25lbs per pack so 50lbs total. The 20ah batteries are 19 lbs per battery so 114lbs total. The saving would be about 65 pounds. That would increase top speed just not sure how much. The cost is the problem. The two packs are about $1400 total.

What would the discharge rate be on say a 22ah battery? THey are the same size as the 20ah. THey also cost about the same money.

sixpax2k9
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Re: Could you use a 10" moped style motor on xb-600

Mostly all SLA batteries are going to be the same as far as max and average discharge. Any batteries designed for higher current draw (if it is even that much difference) are going to be priced quite a bit higher.

http://www.batteryplex.com/universal.cfm/m/UB12220
http://www.batteriesasap.com/48.html

2 links to the batteries that I bought. Depending on where u are shipping to, one may be cheaper than the other.
I know the Lithium is a lot more expensive, they are for the reason that they are far superior to SLA and most other chemistries.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

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