Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

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AndY1
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Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

I live in an apartment block. So far I've charged my Vectrix at the public plug in the garage.

I'd like to extend my charging cable from my apartment to my garage parking space, so I can charge Vectrix on my electricity bill.
In the EU, we have 220-230V at the plug.

The length of the cable to the garage would be 80 meters and cable would be 3x2.5m2 thick. Now, the voltage drop at that length would be noticable (aprox. 4.25%) = 9-10V drop. So at the plug in the garage, I'd have aprox 210-220V.

Vectrix manual states, that the recharge requirements are 110V-230V.

Would everything be ok, if my charging voltage would be 210V?

Further more, if I buy Mitsubishi MiEV next year (or Citroen's licenced car), which charges, presumably, at 15A, voltage drop would be 7.8% = 17V. Do you think Vectrix' charger and MiEV's charger can handle 200-210V if they are rated from 110V-230V?
Is it better to install 4mm2 cable, even though it's more expensive?

jurba
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

use a big cable you should not have any voltage drop ,
the imiev ? good I 've tried it in monaco at ever festival, it is a real car... just nice , expensive but nice
this car has a fast recharge capability .... provided one get a 380v 3phase supply.
here in france it is easy to get this kind of supply even in a garage, if you get a private parking

vectrixhoper

HarryS
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

It depdends on what size fuse your circuit uses. The Vectrix charger uses constant Wattage drawing about 1750Watt. As the voltage drops, the amperage drawn increases. Here in the US, at 119V, the draw just barely matches the 15A circuit breaker used i.e. it would drwa 14.7A. If the voltage drops by 10%, i.e. to 107V, you will draw 16.3A. Bridging 80m with low voltage drop requires a pretty thick cable. You would need a 10AWG cable to drop 4V at 220V over 80m. Most houshold extension cables are 14AWG which gives you a 10V drop!

marylandbob
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

YES, by all means, get the bigger cable! Charging the car would result in very noticeable HEATING of your cable, as over 220 watts of power would be lost in the cable resistance. Aside from the possible hazard, this heat represents wasted MONEY, as this power is not reaching your battery, it only heats the cable and surroundings!--Bob

Robert M. Curry

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Agreed. 3x4mm2 cable it is.

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

It depdends on what size fuse your circuit uses. The Vectrix charger uses constant Wattage drawing about 1750Watt. As the voltage drops, the amperage drawn increases. Here in the US, at 119V, the draw just barely matches the 15A circuit breaker used i.e. it would drwa 14.7A. If the voltage drops by 10%, i.e. to 107V, you will draw 16.3A. Bridging 80m with low voltage drop requires a pretty thick cable. You would need a 10AWG cable to drop 4V at 220V over 80m. Most houshold extension cables are 14AWG which gives you a 10V drop!

It's gonna be a 20A fuse, 3x4mm2 cable, voltage at the power box should be 230V. At 220V-230V, Vectrix draws 7A-8A max.

R
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

I believe vectrix will work properly with lower voltage, but I'd rather prefer an official announcement from Steve.

From wiki:


The voltage drop (E) occurring in an alternating current circuit is the product of the current (I) and impedance of the circuit (Z). It is expressed by the formula E = IZ, analogous to Ohm's law for direct current circuits. Electrical impedance (Z) is the vector sum of 2- electrical resistance, and the 1- capacitive - inductive reactance.

1- Inductive - capacitive reactance:

Reactance is a circuit element's opposition to an alternating current, caused by the build up of electric or magnetic fields in the element due to the current. In electric transmission, reactance of power lines and transformers is dominant to resistance.

As in depens on the frequency (50Hz) and geometry (coils), you can minimize it by preventing the wire from having a coil-shape (accidentaly happends in half - extended portable extension cords, be careful)


2- The electrical resistance:

A metal consists of a lattice of atoms, each with a shell of electrons. The outer electrons are free to dissociate from their parent atoms and travel through the lattice, creating a 'sea' of electrons, making the metal a conductor. When an electrical potential difference (a voltage) is applied across the metal, the electrons drift from one end of the conductor to the other under the influence of the electric field.
The larger the cross-sectional area of the conductor, the more electrons are available to carry the current, so the lower the resistance. The longer the conductor, the more scattering events occur in each electron's path through the material, so the higher the resistance. Different materials also affect the resistance.

Therefore, it is recommended to avoid accidental wire disposal following coil shape, and to use as short as possible cords with wide section.
Consider disposing a secondary ICL direcly from your home's "electric counter" (usually placed around floor level) in order to short the wire lenght as much as possible. If you are thinking of a 3 phase recharge it would be a nice idea to put 3 phase wires now, it may be expensive but you'll install it once, no need the pay for the same work two times. Some time latter if you want you can have 3-phase supply.

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

I wouldn't want to have my electric cable to be routed directly from the counter, because the cable will be exposed inside the canal/hole and anyone will have access to my cable if he/she wishes and leech from my electricity. With having a fuse in my apartment, I can directly switch off the connection to the cable going to the garage.

Unfortunately, our apartment block doesn't have 3-phase connection, only single phase.

Spaceangel
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Vectrix manual states, that the recharge requirements are 110V-230V.

Would everything be ok, if my charging voltage would be 210V?

The charger on the VX-1 is switched mode technology and mine uses 13 amperes USA amperes at 117 volt and once in a great while would trip the breaker. So I used a Variac and increased the voltage to VX-1 and as I did the current went down. So the volts times amps were the same even though the volts were 155 volt. But the current was only about 9 or 10 amps. It will be about 14 or 15 hundred watts at initial charge no matter what volts are put in scooter. Most chargers if they say on label 90-250 volt 45 -65 Hz then it will accept AC or DC in at that range.
Try your laptop brick on 100 volt AC or DC and it will still power your laptop. Who knows some one on Visforvoltage Spark 5 or something mention a brick would work on my XM-3000 and wow! it worked on 65 volt pack voltage.
So I wouldn't worry about E drop much till getting in to real long lengths.
Rusty
PS Now I am not too worried about charger failure since I found an 8 Amp charger on this list.

KB1UKU

R
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

because the cable will be exposed inside the canal/hole and anyone will have access to my cable if he/she wishes

Just an idea: You can install a special fuse that can be activated remotely from your home. The energy will flow efficiently from the counter, the activation will come from your home.
On the other hand, you can prevent anyone from using your electricity by protecting the plug with a keyed metallic box. Your wire inside the parking must be inside a pvc/metallic tube, in order to prevent other people from having acces to it.

Unfortunately, our apartment block doesn't have 3-phase connection, only single phase.

If you live in a block with multiple apartments the block's counter room must have 3 phase supply. You can easelly upgrade to 3 phase. A picture of the multiple counter panel can help us to find out.
AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

On the other hand, you can prevent anyone from using your electricity by protecting the plug with a keyed metallic box. Your wire inside the parking must be inside a pvc/metallic tube, in order to prevent other people from having acces to it.

This is what I will be having in any case. But anyone, on the vertical way from my electricity counter to the garage floor will have an access to my cable. That's where the weak spot is.

If you live in a block with multiple apartments the block's counter room must have 3 phase supply. You can easelly upgrade to 3 phase. A picture of the multiple counter panel can help us to find out.

I'm sure you're right, but our apartments only get one phase. I don't want to mess to much with the counter panel, 'cause that means electricity supply company would get involved and that makes to many variables and costs for my taste.

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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

I'm sure you're right, but our apartments only get one phase. I don't want to mess to much with the counter panel, 'cause that means electricity supply company would get involved and that makes to many variables and costs for my taste.

You are dealing with the most challenging issue in relation to electric vehicles: How to recharge them in the city.
Every plug is a galaxy of possible solutions and problems. Choose the one that makes more sense to you.

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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Some observatins to add to the mix.

When power supplies are routed to different floors, there can be regulations that specifically prohibit such an installation UNLESS the socket is fed from a supply thgat can be isolated FROM THE SAME FLOOR. THis is to ensure that if there is a Health & Safety issue, and (for example) all the power on a certain level needs to be isolated - whether due to accident or required maintenance - those concerned need to be sure that the revevant sources can be turned off. NOT go hunting for people on other floors who MAY have their own feeds that will not be isolated by a floor-wide shut-down.

Secondly, the UK voltages did NOT actually change (despite harmonisation) they re-wrote the spec to allow a greater range within the supply, and whilst we a supposedly (in the UK) at 230v, this can be provided +/- 10%, so we return to out original 240v, and at times of low consumption, say overninght - this can increase to 248-255v. To discover you YOU will actually get requires where you are in the supply chain, and requires to be tested - since voltage drops on cable runs can be easily quantified, the START point cannot.

- Raymond

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

I got an approval from apartment block architect project leader (it's a 5 year old apartment block), everything will be added to the block schematics, official testing done and all will be legal.

I live in the continental EU, so our voltage is at 220V-230V level.

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Step 1 complete:
//www.shrani.si/t/2z/fS/1KUoafno/05042009079.jpg)

76 meters of copper cable 5 x 2.5mm2. 2 wires for phase (effective diameter 5mm2), 2 wires for zero (effective diameter 5mm2) and 1 wire for ground connection (effective diameter 2,5mm2). It took 2 people 2 hours and it was pretty simple, since the cable was laid down the existing canals and shelves.
It's gonna have a 25A fuse. Since it's 230V plug (EU), it's going to have max. charge power of 5500W.

At the end of January, the metal plugs box will be installed. I will be able to lock it and it's going to have clearance in the door, so it can be closed&locked while an electric vehicle will be plugged&charging.

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Tadaaa!!!

//www.shrani.si/t/3e/9A/uLqex3R/26022010203.jpg)

//www.shrani.si/t/2c/Ff/1ZTYUBH6/26022010204.jpg)

ElectricLou
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Andy,
Nice box and like the notch you cut in it so the cord can be plugged in and the box locked. Are you still flying model Heli's? I have been messing with the blade mcx and msr for a few months and just ordered a blade SR.

Take Care,
Louie

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Thank you!

There is just one problem that appeared yesterday. I went out to buy a plug digital clock timer and the upper edge of the electric box cover sticks out aprox. 1cm and I can't plug the timer in. I'll try to sort that out somehow.

About Blade; it looks like a nice heli, but I see that it has it's own tail rotor motor. Doesn't it make it tail heavy? I mean, BeltCP has a belt driven tail and I have to have LiPo all the way to the front to have it balanced without command trim.
Edit: I have a T-Rex600 Electric for this year :-)

R
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Nice charging box! congratulations!
I've been allowed to put a charging plug in my parking square:
http://www.voltforum.cat/voltforum/YaBB.pl?num=1264698991

Do you like it?

AndY1
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Even prettier than mine :-)

RaDy
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Re: Voltage drop at the 80m charging cable to my garage

Nice neat box!

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