There has been much discussion concerning the lack of information and detail available for the purposes of maintaining the Vectrix Scooter.
For reasons best known to themselves, the Vectrix organisation kept virtually all information to themselves. Owners were given a 'handbook' which actually contained little if any useful information. Servicing schedules were not provided to customers/owners.
More recently, the availability of diagnostic software and the upgrade firmware have become hot topics. Some owners, through one means or another, are in possession of these essential 'tools' and are therefore in a position to carry out some maintenance. Others are not so well equipped. Yet others are still suffering from the limitations and failings of the earlier firmware and have no means of dealing with the shortcomings of this early software / firmware.
This thread is opened for the purpose of 'airing' views on this difficult situation with the goal of determining how best to deal with this subject which I shall entitle 'Essential Tools for Servicing and Maintenance' (The word 'Tools' in this context is taken to include service information of all descriptions)
I do tend to view things somewhat differently and in this matter I take the
following view.
Vectrix built an electric scooter and sold it to the general public. It is,
electronically, a complex design and in order to perform any assessment of
the scooter's performance and for servicing purposes, a computer fitted with
Vectrix's diagnostic software is essential.
To maintain/upgrade the electronic control with the most up to
date 'firmware', the aforementioned computer and diagnostics software Plus
the new 'firmware' packages, are again essential.
This work would normally be carried out by the Vectrix dealer network but it
is not beyond the capabilities of the average owner.
The original Vectrix organisation has collapsed, gone out of business and the
dealerships worldwide have effectively closed.
As there is no one, officially, available to assist owners in many areas,
those owners are, in many parts of the world, on their own.
Under the circumstances they have two choices, either maintain the scooter
themselves or write it off at the first breakdown or service requirement.
It is my belief that I purchased, with the scooter, the right to maintain it.
I believe that I am entitled to work on it for maintenance purposes, including
the electronics, as it is my personally owned property.
I further believe
that the deliberate withholding of essential tools and information, including
software / firmware, would constitute a breach of my right to maintain my
property. As such and because I have in my possession (some of) the tools
for the job, I shall endeavor to maintain my property and also help others
to maintain their property where I can and without cost to them.
I do not believe that I am engaging in any illegal activity. I further
do believe that anyone attempting to stop me servicing my property, would
themselves be restricting my 'right to maintain' and, arguably, encouraging
the use of road-going vehicles which are not being serviced and properly
maintained.
I have no agreement with the former Vectrix organisation concerning the use
or possession of the 'software' tools and, as that organisation no longer
exists, any agreement or obligations which I might be a party to, would surely now
be void.
The position I have taken is certainly morally correct. I have only ever offered
to help other owners via the forum. I have published nothing which might be
construed copyright and I most certainly would not wish to put the forum in a position of
having to defend itself on any legal issues.
I look forward to reading the views held by other owners / contributers to this forum
The Laird.
Unfortunately, getting screwed out of our warranty coverage by the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process doesn't give us the right to violate copyright law. We need to be very careful not to post anything on this forum that puts us into legal trouble, so you'll probably never see the Vectrix service manuals or diagnostic software made directly available here without permission from Vectrix (or whoever ends up with their IP). Personally, I think making these tools available to existing owners who are desperately struggling to maintain their bikes would go a long way as a gesture of good will, but it's got to be their decision.
That said, there are members on this forum who have made comments revealing access to manuals and software. Send them a PM, cross your fingers, and you might find someone willing to help you out.
I agree with The Laird. I didn't just buy a bike but a warranty and service network assuring me of 10 years or more of service life of this bike. Thats what the specs have for the battery. I would argue that a good portion of the $10,000 purchase price was paying for a service network. Since the bankrupcy took this network down, I was defrauded of my investment. I actually talked to the compny n Connecticut prior to purchasing the bike. I had to go to Atlanta to puchase the bike but was assured that they had aready lined up a local dealership that was going to provide support for my bike. That never happend.
It is illegal to publish copyrighted material without express, written permission or to reproduce and sell copyrighted material for a profit. It is not illegal to SHARE that material if you are in possession of it. If you are in possession of it legally, that means you either bought it or someone who got it legally, gave it to you. Ask, and if its out there, you'll likely receive it.
The Vectrix was a "breakthrough" machine, which concured (or at least tried to) many of the shortcomings that the EV industry has been struggling with for decades. I'm not surprised at all that in an effort to insure their own future, the mother company kept close tabs on all its design and technical data. I applaud that effort to the extent that the company remains available for service and honors the warranty that I bought and paid for. Since I have neither service or warranty at this point, through no fault of my own, then I applaud the company for their efforts, and demand that they step aside and allow those of us who paid at least SOME of their bills to have a crack at keeping our bikes on the road long enough to make them worth what we paid for them.
I have often wondered, if the "National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration" here in the USA would view this lack of service facilities and service software/information a safety issue? It would seem to me that having vehicles on the highway that cannot be serviced properly could constitute a safety problem! I do not know the best way to initiate an effort to release service info to alleviate this issue, but perhaps a LAW should be in place, REQUIRING that full service information be readily available to all owners/servicers of highway certified vehicles, for a nominal fee, if not included with the vehicle at purchase. To me, such a legal requirement would make good sense! (I have had very little difficulty purchasing detailed service infomation from HONDA, General Motors, and FORD for my cars and motorcycles, why shouldn't VECTRIX service info ALSO be available??--Bob Curry
PS:The thinking that "It is more complicated, etc" does NOT hold water, as I, or any of you, can obtain technical information, wiring diagrams, and parts lists, for many highly complicated consumer electronics devices, from such companies as SONY, PANASONIC, VERTEX-STANDARD, LG-ZENITH, and KENWOOD, to name a few.-Bob
Robert M. Curry
There's a post here on relocating the motor and it got me curious about the motor/hub in the Vectrix so I did a close up inspection of it (outside only) and I drew what I guessed a cross section of it would look like after being surprised that it wasn't what I expected. Note the steel tube is a total guess if it exists or not.
Does any one see what I see that would have changed there mind about buying there Vectrix scooter? I think this is one of the reasons they didn't print a better owners manuals or have repair manuals available.
The drawing is wrong, there is NO "steel tube" the ring gear does not rotate, it is affixed to the stationary motor housing, the pinion(SUN) gear rotates, and the planetary gear carrier rotates within the ring gear, and this planetary carrier is attached to the wheel, thusly rotating it at reduced speed. (a much stronger arrangement than what you drew)-Bob
Robert M. Curry
You are perfectly right to fight for our rights ,
but I think that is is useless ....
even with the soft (that we will have copies of in case vectrix new corp don't manage to save this scooter commercially) how to keep this scooter alive without support ?
we would have to rebuilt it over the years with diy parts and it would be very dear and difficult .
not impossible but very difficult
I've just spend 10 years to built an electronic close circuit mixed gas diving rebreather and I really don't want to do the same job as for the vectrix ....
http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
independence from makers has been my goal in diving and like you I'd like to be independent from vectrix , but after having thought of the possibility to make dyi parts myself, I think that this scooter is far too complicated for good quality home made modifications.
it would mean to rebuilt the entire chain pack,bms,controller,charger motor , displays ....
it took them 10 years or so to get to the actual vectrix...
our only chance is that they manage to built a good pack and thatmany people buy this machine to give them reasons to go on building the necessary parts for us in the future .
No ev have survived so far in times, the old gm's disappeared , the old french peugeot and citrohens still exist but guy's have more and more problems to get parts even of thos french car maker make thier best to help the pioneers .....
I think that what we all need is a real EV market that don't exist at the time, and that won't exist before long unless governments really decide that burning petrol is forbibden.
let's be honest, do you think the average stupid consumer will massively buy dear , range limited and full of issues vehicles ? I don't think so
We are really queer people thinking of future, but most of the population only think to get back home as fast as possible in big SUV's air conditioned to switch on television to watch stupid soaps and eat industrial preprepared food to get so fat that they will need more and more powerful and heavy suv's to carry their big ass....
My feeling is that we are living a nice dream with our vectrix but that this dream like many things will end soon.
it is sure that with the software tools we will be able to prolong by a couple of years the vectrix life , building lithium home made packs and using the soft to control charge and discharge but what will happends when we will find not controler to interface to the software...
are we gonna buit a controller, are we gonna buit pcbs, are we gonna program pic's chips to control the system, drive the displays , are we gonna invent algo's to calubrate the energy gauge according to the lipo or lifo2 pack we are going to built ?
no we won't do this .
we will have to switch to more simple projects like the cityel (the small german 3 wheel one seat ev) , or to chinese simple lithium scooters wi will be able to modify easily .
I am really pessimistic , sorry, I hope to be wrong ...
the vectrix will never be viable economically and it will disappear .....god it drives me mad
regards
jean mi
vectrixhoper
If you take the chrome cover of the motor off, then the tan plastic cover under that you'll be able to see that the rotation of the motor is the opposite that of the wheel which has to mean that the planetary gear carrier shaft is not rotating or is held stationary by the right swing-arm and the ring gear is affixed to the hub/planetary housing which means that the hub/planetary housing is separate from the left swing-arm/motor housing where the drawing shows. A much easier way to do that is to just observe this by moving the scooter foward or backward a little. This is what first surprised me, you would expect that there would be solid metal there but instead this is where the two housings separate.
I think it would be a good idea for somebody to run a computer simulation for long term stress of these components under different road conditions for possible dangerous failure scenarios. Here's one scenario sooner or layer one of the rear shocks will fail before the other one does greatly adding to the stress of where the two housings are attached by the proposed steel tube, what then happens when you then hit a large pot hole at high speed ?
how did this thread get so off topic. why is the placement of the fictious motor discussed here?
I think you are legaly true in terms of legal technics.
I am a french lawyer don't know in the US but in France it would be illegal steal the soft and spread if through a forum board .
on the other hand nobody would suit a couple individuals using the soft to tune their scooter .
I don't see how a prosecutor would spent it's time to bring a couple of EV fans to the criminal court for using copies of a software for private reasons .
vectrixhoper
Agreed. There would be significant PR backlash to New Vectrix filing suit against customers for simply taking extraordinary efforts to maintain their bikes after being deprived of all OEM service, parts and warrantee coverage due to Chapter 11 bankruptcy. That's probably even true for them trying to shut this site down for violating copyright law, but I wouldn't want to bet on that one. Best if we play everything above board and keep any copyrighted material off the forum.
to be honest this board must be their nightmare .....even without violating any intellectual right it must have been difficult for them to face the anger of ozies and other ripped off poor guys that spend 10.000 dollar for nothing ..
I hope this board will become their dream show window when the pack will last and when their price will be affordable and give us and new customers the reason bet on a vectrix
regards
jean mi
vectrixhoper
The concept of piracy with regard to the diagnostics and operational software of the Vectrix is an interesting puzzle. In order to preserve safety, the bike must be maintained, yet the prescribed method to do so collapsed. When these bikes were purchased, did any dealer provide a software end user license agreement? Was there a label on the bike stating that "by using this bike you agree to...." Was there any statement of copyright issued at time of purchase, with regards to the operational software? ON the other hand, the service software written for Vectrix service centers expressly, is most likely, if protected by the originating authors, UNLESS, the software is opensource. My personal opinion is that it would greatly enhance the usability of these bikes for any service document to either be available for end user purchase, or released to open source freeware. Trade secrets? Competition? Ummm, if that was a problem, why arent the other big name bike makers coming out with electric bikes? (I refer to the gas giants) Somebody wrote that software, and somewhere in the code, is a copyright string. If the new owners arent releasing the software, it would be nice if the authors could, even at a reasonable end user fee. I prefer open source, where everyone can have access, and help each other.
The drawing below is a new updated drawing that more closely resembles the rear hub then the one above so ignore that one. Also I've changed my mind about it's structural design from being possibly dangerous to structurally adequate after taking it apart.
As robert93 says, the rights that go with Free Software (or 'Open Source' if you prefer) exist to provide exactly what The Laird desires in terms of something you own being maintainable, if not by yourself, then by someone else (normally a garage in the case of vehicles). It works just the same way for electronic vehicle control as it does for computers and other gadgets. In fact all of these things are computers of one sort or another and as more of more of them get into everything we do (vehicles, cameras, electricity meters, phones, satnav systems, heating controllers, audio players, TVs and so on) - the licencing of software becomes pervasive and important. Most of us now own an awful lot of computers of one sort or another (I count 37 in this house, 12 of which run non-free software). I try very hard to only buy equipment with Free Software in it, so that I (or someone) can fix it, maintain it, update it for changes in formats or surroundings, and generally so that I have control. Now for most of these devices it's not worth changing the software provided, as it works well enough, but the more expensive the item the more the software running it matters - which is why it really matters in a Vectrix (or any other vehicle).
The embedded software in most devices, including vehicles, has a proprietary licence on it. The manufacturer that sold it to you almost certainly bought it from a third party. The purchaser is rarely appraised of the licencing on the software inside their device - they just bought the thing - there might or might not be a line in the manual saying 'the software in this device is proprietary - copyright whoever'. Effectively they get a licence to use it as-is, and that's that. Copying is difficult (sometimes practically impossible) so the issue doesn't really arise.
The software used for diagnostic purposes is never supplied to the user, only to the dealer/service agent. They are the customer and they will have bought it as proprietary software in the normal way, although possibly again inside a 'vectrix analyser widget' they can't easily change. The end-user has absolutely no rights over this software in law as he/she is not even a party to it. The fact that it is a necessary tool for vehicle service makes this problematic. I guess this has been going on for a while now as all new vehicles have ECUs in them and only people with the service software can do much to them. I am aware that upgrades and performance tuning companies exist, but I have little idea what proportion of vehicles it is possible to service independent of the dealers/manufacturers? I don't think Vectrix is actually very different from all the others except that they are now gone (ish).
That does mean that anyone who does have a copy of their diagnostic software and passes on copies is very unlikely to get sued for it. Remember that copyright infringement is a civial, not criminal, offence which means that the state won't sue you on behalf of the copyright owner. The owner has to do it themsleves. If the owner is gone then you shouldn't have a problem. However in this case it may well be that new-vectrix still retains those rights. Hard to know without asking. One would hope that the moral argument clearly explained above would have some weight, but I'm not sure it would help much in a court of law - they often aren't big on that sort of thing.
Still, reverse engineering is not illegal in most places yet, so you don't _need_ the original software - you can write some more. I would hope that someone has already started on this? The tricky bit is that experimenting on your transport can be awkward if you get something wrong (and that's very likely with reverse engineering as soon as you actually start changing things). I haven't been folowing all the vectrix threads in detail as I don't have one, but do we have any firmware upgrade examples that could be analysed and copies of the diagnostic software to examine the exchanged data stream?
This is a little off-topic, but just to give some actual examples covering my earlier point about buying maintainable stuff I have:
Snom VOIP phone (Runs uclinux, I have the source)
Tomtom satnav (Runs linux, I have the source, the nav app is proprietary).
Sansa MP3 player (Firmware can be replaced by Rockbox, which I did immediately - works great, much more flexible than original)
TV/recorder (MythTV on a normal x86 ITX box - get's upgraded every couple of years - works nicely but fiddly to install)
Wireless Router: WRT54G (Used original linksys firmware for years, now upgraded to OPenWRT (linux) which is better)
Phone (OpenMoko Freerunner, runs Linux - range of falvours available, I use it for GPS work too)
Heating control (Balloonboard running Debian - my own creation that one - infinitely more flexiable than standard offereings, web-connected for free - interface could be much nicer :-)
Radiator TRVs. Honeywell HR20 rondostat (Project exists providing replacement firmware)
Camera: Cannon Ixus/powershot. (all but the earliest of these have replacement firmware available)
My car (peugeot expert) is old enough not to have a computer yet...
Moped: Sadly the E-fun people refuse to give out firmware info on their controller, but if I replace it it will be withone that does come with software details.
So it is possible to have Free Software running in most of your tech these days. The choice is growing steadily. Now it's OK that you will in fact not change the software in most of your devices (few of us have time to dick with all those things!), but the fact that you could if you wanted or needed to, is worth quite a lot, especially in higher-value items. Those of you who have been stung by the vectrix experience, bear this factor in mind when shopping generally.
Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)