Brake pad mileage

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michaelt
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Brake pad mileage

Having just been saying how trouble free my first year of Vectrix motoring has been i took it in for its annual WOF (warrant of fitness, NZ's vehicle check) and it FAILED! Front brake pads were completely worn out after 3,200 km's! I use the regen braking very little, actually I prefer to use the brakes but that is ridiculous. What have others been getting? Or has anyone had any issues with the brakes?

HarryS
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I never use the brakes but use regen almost exclusively. My pads look as new after 5000 miles.

R
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I never use the brake pads, only on extra breaking circumstances. They look fine after 21.000 km,

Mik
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I did at least 20 full emergency break practices.

And I should really do it again soon, because other than for emergency practice, I barely use the brakes.

One exception is in heavy rain: I use the conventional brakes only then, to keep them dry and ready. You are much more likely to suddenly need your brakes in rain, at least where I ride; and despite the claims by others that they work the same in wet conditions, that is a lot of nonsense! They might be working well, I lack the experience to compare it, but they definitively do not work as predictable and as soon as when they are dry.

I also recommend to everyone to re-visit the swapping of break levers issue. I don't need it, I have large hands and practically never need winter gloves. With large hands and nimble summer gloves, I can get optimum breaking action by just using my right hand. Full regen then acts as ABS brake for the rear wheel.

I would not go as far as R and remove the rear brake, though!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

israndy
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Re: Brake vs Regen

Wait, you don't use brakes at all? The Regen only works when the bikes really moving. When it gets closed to stopped it has to be USING energy to stop the bike, right?

If you never use the brakes, don't the rotors get rusty?

-Randy

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R
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Re: Brake vs Regen

hehe! hanging the bike stationary in a hilly traffic light is an extra breaking circumstance...

Obviously, When the bike is almost stopping in a traffic light I pull the front brake lever to stop the bike (I don't have the rear one installed). With such unintensive use the front brake pads will last over 30.000 km. The rear rotor has no rust at all. Build in with some metal mixture that does not get rusted...
Do you want some new pictures of the rear rotor and the front pads?

snail
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Re: Brake vs Regen

I also only use the brakes when I need to stop quickly. I have 7,500 miles on the clock, the pads are still as new. Discs are clean too, but my V never sees rain...

antiscab
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Re: Brake vs Regen

Wait, you don't use brakes at all? The Regen only works when the bikes really moving. When it gets closed to stopped it has to be USING energy to stop the bike, right?

No - when you motor brake, actual regen is happening.
the worst case scenario is when goign very slow that all the energy is being turned into heat in the motor and controller.
at no time during breaking is battery power necessary.
thats why braking force reduces as you slow down.

Matt

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antiscab
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Re: Brake vs Regen

interesting about the short brake life.

looks like either you get short rear tyre life and use the regen, or short front brake life and use the mechanical brake.

still have yet to swap the brakes over, yet another job for the to-do list.

im at 4500km, front disc is looking new.

Matt

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2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

snail
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Re: Brake vs Regen

looks like either you get short rear tyre life and use the regen, or short front brake life and use the mechanical brake.

Ah yes... the decisions we have to make! It took me a while (two rear tyre swaps) to realise that my choice to use regen was shortening the life of the rear tyre. It's a tricky question - is using the regen and saving the pads cheaper than replacing the rear tyre every 5000km? I suspect not, but it feels greener!

Brian

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Re: Brake vs Regen

The only question here is; rear vs. front tire. Does it really matter?

I have nearly 7000km done, but my rear tire is not nearly worn out for replacement. I will replace bot of them this year because their DOT is 0702, which means, they're 3 years old. I will be replacing them with Michelin Gold Standard.

snail
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Re: Brake vs Regen

The only question here is; rear vs. front tire. Does it really matter?

Does it matter - Not really! I have Gold Standards on mine, the rear goes about 5000km (about a year of riding for me), the front 10000. Absolutely brilliant tyres, so much better (for me) than the OE Pirellis.

Brian

Aircon
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Re: Brake vs Regen

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't make use of the regen braking.

no matter how you look at it, with only a single disc up the front, it's going to need a lot of stopping. it's a HEAVY scooter!

dvdaudio
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Re: Brake pad mileage AND regen

Looks like multiple threads in this one: 1. brake pad mileage itself; 2. use of regen; 3. safety; 4. rear tire mileage with heavy regen.

Whether electric or ICE, I'm all about safety first, as we only have TWO wheels. Mik is right on here about riding in the rain. Sometimes when in traffic, I'll drag on brakes from time to time to keep the rotors warm, therefore more dry. If one looses regen, all one has is the brakes.

With my "V" I am ALWAYS ready on a moment's notice to use the brakes! I remember someone in the UK reporting last year that they were on a downhill slope, and their regen braking just died. I cannot remember if this was a blown fuse. I blew the original fuse last year (and it happened during a full rotation regen), and when it goes you are free wheeling. (see Vectrix collaborative handbook on fuse replacement) When stopping quickly, I use a split fingers method, which sounds exactly what Mik described here, using the front brake while just lightly (takes some time to develop this "Feel") just in case I lose regen from the rear wheel at a risky moment.

So, to me, disconnecting the rear brake is madness; if one looses regen, all you have is balanced braking to avoid going down.

Also, in answering why would one NOT use regen braking: I live and ride every day to work and errands around town, in Phoenix Arizona. I have ridden in 48˚C weather. I take off and ride slow as possible with traffic. I do NOT go on 100kmh freeway during heat of the day. I avoid riding if all possible during the afternoons. I use the brakes - NO regen! My lovely and understanding wife lets me park and charge in the cool living room overnight during our 35˚+ Summers. Fortunately with THIS forum, I realized quickly that NiMh gets HOT on high current charging or discharging; and with my investment in "V" realize that biggest bucks are the batteries. When riding near or over 40˚C I am conscious of taking it very easy just to ride, and do not use any regen during the heat of the day. I know that battery temps can rise over 10˚C from ambient. I know why there are no Vectrix dealers in our 'Phoenix' valley. Most US consumers are knuckleheads, and would kill their batteries in one Summer here.

michaelt
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Re: Brake pad mileage AND regen

Hmmm.....didn't realise my comments about lack of use of regen would open such a minor can of worms. I do use the regen but only after i am down to 14 or 15 bars following comments on other threads to avoid possible overcharging or heating etc. However i prefer to use the brakes as i have greater control, and it is what comes naturally after years of motorcycle riding. My dealer thought the pads could have been a softer off road variety, we shall see how the new set last which are the harder compound apparently. It just seemed to me that even with a heavy bike, single disc and me doing imitations of Casy Stoner that 3000k's was a bit short for wear. We'll see how the next year pans out. And I can certainly not see any sensible reason for disconnecting one of the brakes and/or switching levers, the "Mik" braking technique of regen and front wheel braking with the right hand is not too difficult, and i do not have large hands...

Cheers

Reid250
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Re: Brake pad mileage AND regen

First look to make sure the caliper is floating, not binding on the anchors. I would also look carefully at a sticking caliper piston if the pads are gone in 3200Km. I can't imagine them being that soft. Whenever I service brakes, I push the pistons out a little and look for corrosion. If I see any signs of corrosion, I push the pistons out and polish them. Some calipers have felt wipers in a separate grove outside the seals. Sometimes a little salt gets behind the wiper or the behind the seal and they get too tight on the piston. I have a little homemade tool with a bit on a "T" handle for cleaning the grove. The piston in the master cylinder can also stick and cause the pads to wear out quickly. Once, I had a faulty master cylinder that was not allowing the brake to release. The pads quickly wore out so I had to drill a relief hole further along the bore, from the reservoir, into the cylinder.
I never worry about the cost of pads or rotors. I want the thing to stop as quickly as possible. Everything else is a secondary consideration.
As far a no back brakes, I find this a very strange idea. @20% of your stopping power is on the rear wheel. With oil from cars on a wet road using the front brakes is very dangerous. Any experienced 2 wheel rider will tell you a locked up, sliding the front wheel is how you fall down. Stay out of the center of the vehicle lane at stoplights. That is where the maximum amount of oil from vehicles ends up.

Aircon
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I'm swapping over my front and rear brakes today. Hopefully it'll make the scooter a lot safer to ride.

I use regen almost all the time....but that transition from regen to needing to suddenly stop is very unpleasant with the front brake lever on the right.

Domi422
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I have swap brakes from the first day and it's been of a great help on some occasions. As i also ride on mountain bikes and have no other motorcycle there is no danger for me.

Le site des utilisateurs français (The French user's website) http://www.vectrix.fr/

kingcharles
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Hi Aircon,

I was contemplating to swap the front and rear brakes also.
Have you already done this and was it easy to do?

also how is your experience after the swap?
Thanks

Once you go EV, Gas is history!

Aircon
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Re: Brake pad mileage

It was the smartest thing I've done. Very easy to do. I'm used to using the left lever because my other scooter has linked brakes...ie works front and back from left lever, so now I use full regen and then just squeeze the left lever (now the front brake) if more braking is needed.

I wish Vectrix had done it prius like...that would have been much smarter.

No more panic stops for me. I know some of you have said you can grab the right lever on full regen, but I think you're kidding yourselves. It's ineffective, too slow, not enough feel and not smooth enough....but what would I know...I've only been riding since 1974! lol

Mik
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I would also switch the brake light sensor switch cables if I switch the brakes.

That would give an unmissable indication to any Vectrix rider that the brakes have been swapped. Unless the brake lever sequence is changed accordingly, there will then be no "GO" signal!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Aircon
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Re: Brake pad mileage

I would also switch the brake light sensor switch cables if I switch the brakes.

That would give an unmissable indication to any Vectrix rider that the brakes have been swapped. Unless the brake lever sequence is changed accordingly, there will then be no "GO" signal!

nobody's riding my bike but me, so no need to worry about that.

but it could certainly give someone a wake up call otherwise!

allanbairstow
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Just thought I'd share my brake pad wear with you. After 7,700 miles and 18 months of driving to and from work my pads are 'as new' no wear at all ! I try to do Regen all the time and I can count on one hand the times I have had to brake hard (usually because I wasn't paying attention). Other than that, I use them when stood still at lights,etc. At this rate the batteries will give out before the pads do ! I love my Vectrix ;-) Allan

Electric traction is the future.

dvdaudio
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Speaking of brakes; I just changed rear tyre at 5300km. Brakes look good, just slightly worn. However, I know I will need new pads at some point. Does anyone know the model/part number for these Brembo's? ... and perhaps USA source?

Thanks.

rewski
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Re: Brake pad mileage

dvdsaudio -

Did you change the rear tire yourself or did you have a shop do it? I'm in need of a rear tire change soon and have the instructions for the rear tire exchange that I was planning to bring with me to a local cycle dealer (non-Vectrix) and see if they would be able to do the tire change. Thanks.

Adam - Denver, CO
2007 Vectrix VX-1 charged with the power of the sun = zero carbon footprint

dvdaudio
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Yes Adam, I did myself this time. With a few basic tools and some method to safely jack up the V enough to clear the tire up off garage floor, the wheel removal and replacement was straightforward.

However, removing the old tire from the rim, and replacing with the new was very difficult without specialty tools. If my Son had not stopped by with extra muscle power, I would have taken to friends at a local tire shop - which I WILL do next time. There are some YouTube videos on doing a "driveway" or "gorilla" method of tire changing; but they show "do-it-yourself" types changing car & truck tires. These little 13-inchers are actually more difficult.

I found DennisKirk.com here in the States. They stock the Michelin Gold Standard that some other V owners are using, along with the original Pirelli's, but I ordered the Michelin Pilot Sport for US$56 plus about 8 bucks UPS shipping. I decided to post my tire removal and replacement experience in the "Vectrix Collaborative Handbook; so you can see my comments there on this site. If you choose to have local bike or tire shop do it for you up in Denver; you may want to print these comments for their benefit. The V is different from ICE scooters and bikes, but a good mechanic should be able to figure out removal of swing arm.

Glen - Phoenix Arizona

Mik
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Re: Brake pad mileage

...
...
I ordered the Michelin Pilot Sport ...
...

I think I almost bought one of them, but then cancelled the order when I found out that it cannot be inflated to 40PSI.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

AndY1
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Michelin Gold Standard can?

I'm gonna order a new front and read tire this year, since my original Pirellis are 3 years old. They are not worn out, just to old for my taste (they were already 1.5 years old when I hot the bike).

dvdaudio
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Hmmm... very interesting comments about MAX inflation pressure. I JUST received a new Michelin Pilot Sport 140/60-13 last week from a US Web based retailer. The tire distinctly says MAX 41 PSI at 550 Pound load. Yes, I just went to check one last time before posting. Perhaps there is a different tyre being marketed to Australia/UK ??

BTW - I did not have enough air volume to "SEAT" the beads at home, so I took to friendly local tire shop and watched mechanic run up to about 60 to 70 PSI to get the beads to "pop" (seat properly). Then had him take back down to 42; been riding for two days no problems.

Mik
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Hmmm... very interesting comments about MAX inflation pressure. I JUST received a new Michelin Pilot Sport 140/60-13 last week from a US Web based retailer. The tire distinctly says MAX 41 PSI at 550 Pound load. Yes, I just went to check one last time before posting. Perhaps there is a different tyre being marketed to Australia/UK ??

BTW - I did not have enough air volume to "SEAT" the beads at home, so I took to friendly local tire shop and watched mechanic run up to about 60 to 70 PSI to get the beads to "pop" (seat properly). Then had him take back down to 42; been riding for two days no problems.

I might be wrong about this. Maybe it was another tire in the shop that could not be inflated hard enough.

The problem with the Michelin Sport might have been that the "Sport" part of the name indicates a softer rubber that will wear faster.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

AndY1
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Re: Brake pad mileage

Hmmm... very interesting comments about MAX inflation pressure. I JUST received a new Michelin Pilot Sport 140/60-13 last week from a US Web based retailer. The tire distinctly says MAX 41 PSI at 550 Pound load. Yes, I just went to check one last time before posting. Perhaps there is a different tyre being marketed to Australia/UK ??

BTW - I did not have enough air volume to "SEAT" the beads at home, so I took to friendly local tire shop and watched mechanic run up to about 60 to 70 PSI to get the beads to "pop" (seat properly). Then had him take back down to 42; been riding for two days no problems.

Do you know the difference between the models (Sport and Gold Standard)?

Edit: Aha, there's even a new Michelin available 'City Grip'.

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