XB700Li mods

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EZrider
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Re: XB700Li mods - up and running!

Here are a couple of better pics of the neutrik connectors.
neutrik-powercon.jpg
Neutrik_Speakon2.jpg

Funny how the pictures make them appear plastic and cheap. They are not! These are heavy duty rock solid metal connectors with huge connector/soldering pins to attach cables to . I got them from a friend in the concert sound business and they are the best to be found for solid vibration proof high amp quick connects. I started using them for the extra batteries in the under seat compartment, and now have them on the mains too as well as the motor cable.
And what perfect timing for me for a new motor! Previous law said 20mph was tops. Now they have changed it to 35 mph! -

75th OREGON LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY--2009 Regular Session

NOTE: Matter within { + braces and plus signs + } in an amended section is new.
Matter within { - braces and minus signs - } is existing law to be omitted.

Be It Enacted by the People of the State of Oregon:
SECTION 1. ORS 801.258 is amended to read:
801.258. 'Electric assisted bicycle' means a vehicle that:
(1) Is designed to be operated on the ground on wheels;
(2) Has a seat or saddle for use of the rider;
(3) Is designed to travel with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground;
(4) Has both fully operative pedals for human propulsion and anelectric motor; { - and - }
(5) Is equipped with an electric motor that:
(a) Has a power output of { - not more than 1,000 watts - }
{ + five horsepower or less + }; and
(b) Is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of
greater than { - 20 - } { + 35 + } miles per hour on level
ground { - . - } { + ; and + }
{ + (6) Has tires that are at least eight inches in diameter. + }

I have a printout of this on me at all times because I ride the network of bicycle- only paths that cars are not allowed on around here, and have been stopped by the cops twice now (for of course thinking I am riding a motorcycle on said path). I show them the bike pedals and this printout and they apologize and tell me to continue on my way! Also important - is the entrances to these paths have signs that say "No motorized vehicles allowed". My printout goes on to say -

Oregon Revised Statutes (ORS) Pertaining to Bicycles
814.405: Status of electric assisted bicycle.

An electric assisted bicycle shall be considered a bicycle, rather than a motor vehicle, for purposes of the Oregon Vehicle Code, except when otherwise specifically provided by statute. [1997 c.400 §4]

This clears me not only with the cops, but also gives me a reply (for those willing to listen) to the bigmouths riding bicycles in their dayglow spandex and transformer helmets who like to yell "no motorized vehicles" as they ride coming from the other direction. I'm so glad this motor looks totally stock. LOL

Mike - Oregon XB-508 with after- market 800watt motor and 72V upgrade
(Thanks to Member tips on V is for Voltage!)

Deputydaves
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Re: XB700Li mods

Mike, just a comment on current draw verses wire size. --- Did you ever take apart and/or look at a let's say a 30 amp fuse? Did you note the 'tiny' wire inside? It's pretty freak'n thin man! To me it's unbelieveable! But that's all it takes. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I usually use larger gauge wire (diameter not by number)too when I do projects but remember that sometimes it's really overkill and slightly more expencive.
-- On the connectors, I like simplicity and also I like consistancy. I like it that all the connectors are swappable. I mean once you change one you must change all of them or they won't be able to interchange them. Like charger to battery, battery to scooter, scooter to charger, and around and around. And if you have a 2nd battery you have to change that too. And if you have or buy another charger you'll have to cut off the stock connector and attach another. Sure those connectors are nice, really nice but I haven't had trouble with any connectors yet... Yet so I'll stick to what I have for now. Wait did I say that, I MOD everything! Did I really say that? Hmmmmmm! Besides the ones that come 'stock' is the commercial 'standard' so why change. That's only my opinion. Sorry but I just don't agree with that option. But they are cool.
Dave C. Stout

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EZrider
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Re: XB700Li mods

All good points Dave. I am by no means an expert, but from what I understand larger wire indeed can be overkill not only for expense, but it also has a larger resistance and so burns/drains/diverts more current by itself as a load. Thats why I only went one size up as a compromise on the battery wires only, diameter wise, to be able to use larger connectors to maintain the diameter provided by the controller. Going larger than what it provides would be of no use electrically. I left all the 18 and 22g wires and connectors the same since they only pass small current. As for the fuse itself, yeah that is a teeny wire but it's not copper like the rest of the wiring (it's usually a lead or tin alloy), so it can provide the same current with a smaller surface area contact.
Actually the only reason I went with new connectors in the first place is the banana plug connectors I originally used for adding additional batteries got warm during use, so the screw- in mounts for the wires would loosen over time due to the heat and finally caused some arc shorts. So when I went looking for something better these turned out to be ideal since I could solder to them, wanting to avoid crimp on or screw in style connectors. One flame- on was enough for me! LOL So while I was it, I was planning/wiring ahead for the 1000watt motor I have planned in the future. But I also plead guilty to compulsive MOD behavior. :-)

Mike - Oregon XB-508 with after- market 800watt motor and 72V upgrade
(Thanks to Member tips on V is for Voltage!)

mf70
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Re: XB700Li mods

Oops, you've got that exactly backwards. Large wires have LOWER resistance. That's why a light bulb's wires are so fine and a welding unit's wires are so heavy. The fuses's wire is also fine because it is intended to melt just beyond the rated load. Resistance comes from diameter and length; 1/2" of fine wire is tolerable, but resistance is additive, and things mount up. That's why, I suspect, many people get cutouts; the controller "sees" a voltage drop below the minimum voltage, even though the battery voltage at the terminals stays in safe levels.

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Re: XB700Li mods

clearing things up.

Here is a small current and AWG table taken from the Amateur Radio Relay Handbook, 1985.

10AWG 101.9mil DIA 33A 1.180OHM/1000FT
12AWG 80.8mil DIA 23A 1.619OHM/1000FT
14AWG 64.1mil DIA 17A 2.575OHM/1000FT

Dave C. Stout
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EZrider
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Re: XB700Li mods

Whew! That makes me feel better knowing the resistance is lower on larger wires. I was concerned that I was sacrificing battery power with larger wire! Thanks for the info!

Mike - Oregon XB-508 with after- market 800watt motor and 72V upgrade
(Thanks to Member tips on V is for Voltage!)

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Re: XB700Li mods

Go look here once, http://www.affordable-solar.com/wire.charts.htm Here is a very interesting writing on voltage and amperage loss in large diameter cables. I thought I remembered reading that there is indeed voltage loss in large wires. Over comming the wires 'capacitance' is one problem. BUT this is a problem in long distance cabling and will have little or no value to our situations. But as U can see in one of the carts that for a 30A run of #10 wire ( I think ) there is a 2% drop per foot. It did not say if that is AC or DC voltage but I'll throw it out there just in case anyone wants to run some wires from LA to Seattle. Ha! Ha! Ha!
As always,
anal Dave

Dave C. Stout
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Deputydaves
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Re: XB700Li mods

since this is my thread i figured this is where i can talk to my 'cyber friends'. this is what i wrote in another thread abiut what i found out about the judicial system.
u just got out of court in PA And I was guilty of no registration for my 700Li. I'M PISSED!,IRATE.ETC,ETC. WTF! Just before I can here to this forum is to write to my governer this is redicuious. the locals think they are the SUPREME RULERS of their land and no one is above them that is &#%&! Now I have to appeal to a higher court which will cost another $57 non refundable proccessibg fee and who knows how much money I must spend and how many courts I will traverse to prob
ve that the federal law superceeds local laws. shouldn't this be the responsibility of someoneelse to prove me wrong not me trying to prove my innocence.may be I should start a fund and ask for contributions for the cause. If we got enough in this 'pot' we could help other people for court costs they incounter. anyway I'll keep uoy informed.
Dave C. Stout .

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Re: XB700Li mods

HI Dave,
First off, I'm NOT a lawyer, so dont take anything I say as legal advice or counsel....
HR 727 gets swung around like a banner to e-bike customers, claiming "legal in all states", but, that law mainly dictates that the safety equipment is covered by the CPSC, not Dept. of Transportation. Aside from that, the law only sets a minimum standard which allows state laws to be more strict. I know this sounds backwards from the usual that federal laws trump all, but in that way the law still allows states to set their own driving standards, including what roads e-bikes can be used/banned on. I personally hate this as I'm legally blind, and in some states i couldnt use electric assist legally, but thats life.
Modifications..... if the bike's speed has been modified to exceed the hr727 20mph max, suck it up, you need a "moped" tag, and or whichever motor vehicle license your state requires, and possibly insurance as it is "not an e-bike" if it can exceed the hr727 requirements. You've done a wonderful job on the bike, possibly too good.
IF the bike still meets hr727, then state law is still king, what are PA state laws on e-bikes? County? City? Were they wanting registration as a motor vehicle? or a bicycle? Best of luck, and hope this has a happy ending.

EDIT: After reviewing what appears to be PA laws on "ebikes",,, it seems you are screwed....they only acknowledge them as mopeds and thus http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-momo.pdf
I did google "PA e bike laws" and found some relevant stuff, but doesnt look like the state has changed its mind about treating them as mopeds.. That is PATHETIC

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Re: XB700Li mods

Dave - Yikes! As I mentioned previously here, I have been stopped by the cops twice so far, and after showing them the printouts of the local statutes they have let me go on my way. Whew! When reading your story I just imagined what would have happened if they had not let me go and had written a ticket instead. That really sux.
What a sign of the times when I'm sure while Dick Tracy was writing you up, somebody was getting robbed, mugged, stabbed and shot a 1/2 a block away. But instead he had to worry about you, the real serious crime huh. The other day there was a woman riding her bike on the MUP path (Multiple Use Path) that I commute on and she started yelling and swearing that I was exploiting a loophole. Acting like she was the Queen of Sheba. These nosy busy-bodies who love to tell everyone else what to do really drives me up a wall too.
Treating them as Mopeds is just plain wrong.

Mike

Mike - Oregon XB-508 with after- market 800watt motor and 72V upgrade
(Thanks to Member tips on V is for Voltage!)

EZrider
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Re: XB700Li mods

I just got the new motor running at 72 volts today. Wow!! This is the fastest this baby has ever run!! It was blowing my hair back and I had to hold on! LOL I am re- designing my display package at the moment so I have no gauges right now, but I'll have a friend follow me soon and report back what the top speed is. This has got to be one of the fastest XB's to ever hit the road.

Mike

Mike - Oregon XB-508 with after- market 800watt motor and 72V upgrade
(Thanks to Member tips on V is for Voltage!)

mf70
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Re: XB700Li mods

As your hair is being blown back, remember that he suspension was DESIGNED FOR 20 mph MAX. The triple clamp on the front fork is a single light casting, and there's a lot of flex.

Here's a good compromise helmet I found:

http://www.kartingwarehouse.com/Karting-Helmets/c0/p53/Bell---Crew-Pro-BMX-Helmet/product_info.html

Sizes run small, though. Size "Large" fits my wife, but I can't wear it.

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Re: XB700Li mods

Hey Dave,

The thought occurred to me, that I bet you could not register your bike even if you wanted to. Maybe a fail in writing (with specifics) from the DMV would help your case? Since all XB's are NOT road worthy and never could be (due to max speed, plus the bike pedals), they have to be confined to bike lanes.

Mike

Mike - Oregon XB-508 with after- market 800watt motor and 72V upgrade
(Thanks to Member tips on V is for Voltage!)

ascouserinnewyork
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Re: XB700Li mods

After reaching out to YK, I guess I missed the boat on this one. According to Susan they no longer make the sample for the 48v 800w 550rpm 16".

Heman B.
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Re: XB700Li mods

concerning the LED lights, isn't it possible to wire 2 LEDS of 24V in parallel, so you won't need the DC converter?

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Re: XB700Li mods

If u read all of the thread and look at the pic u'd see that 1 fits perfectly and is at the correct position for maximized reflection. U really don't need any power supply but u will need a resistor or group of resistors to dissipate the extra current. 68ohms at a whopping 33 watts. 3x10 ohms15watt resistors I would try first. Good luck.

Dave C. Stout
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Heman B.
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Re: XB700Li mods

I'm not too fond of using resistors.
But hey, if only one fits, then just put the front and hind leds in series? (headlight with tail lights, front with back blinkers).
Just needs you to wire 1 or 2 wires from the front to the back (you don't have to go all the way, just tap off the wires at the body).
No need to lose useless energy over a resistor!

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Re: XB700Li mods
Deputydaves
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Re: XB700Li mods

The leds I used are rebel stars with 3 led per cluster. 5 watts per cluster 540 lumens per cluster. Though I buy fro m superbright u will not achieve the lumens. Yes they have rebel stars but I buy all my stars from ledsupply.com they also have a wonderful website specifically for high output leds.
And don't put blinker on the same circuit as regular led, the current fluctuations will dim ur headlights (effectively blinking).
And another thing, I must correct my last calculations, its 56 ohms@27watts for the rebel star at least. Sorry.
Ive hashed through this all before. None work as well as the rebel star. Take the time to see all my life in all my threads... please.

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Re: XB700Li mods

I meant "All my pictures in all my threads." I hate auto correct.

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Heman B.
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Re: XB700Li mods

I suppose for breaklights, and blinkers, you can do with less powerful leds; they don't have to be 500Lm (I presume 100-200Lm is more than enough?).
Just the front light in case you need to drive in total darkness to see what's on the road ahead of you.

I've already looked at your pictures; I find some nice ideas there. However one thing I would not do is put a led in there that needs a fan to cool it (passive like a heat sink is ok, but difficult to mount; but an active fan I find a waste of energy).
If you're set on using a fan, you might as well get a tiny low power 24V fan, put that in series with the LED.

Just a question, but why would you want to put the blinkers on the same circuit? The cables from the board to the blinkers are already there.
All you need to do is rewire front and back leds from parallel to series connection at the board, and change the bulbs to 24 volt LEDS.
Can't get more efficient than that!

Concerning the LEDS themselves, I saw you gotten really flat ones. Why not go for these types:
(just ignore the wrong socket and voltage rating for now, but focus on the LED design):
http://www.amazon.com/EagleLight-27SMD-Chandelier-Candelabra-Base/dp/B004M783J2

I've seen these 4 watters, have a good dispersion, kind of a yellowish light like a 60-100W incandescent, and give brightness like them too.

The dispersion is pretty good, much like a regular incandescent, which is ok, because the housing's chrome walls will focus some of the beam towards the front. If you could find these, they don't really need cooling, just a correct voltage, and a correct socket.

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Re: XB700Li mods

A parabolic reflector focuses on a single point or reflects from a single point thats why my source is as small as practical.
I use a smaller heatsink, no need for a fan...I agree, don't waste energy for nothing. To each they're own. My head lights are blindingly bright burning only 5 watts of power. To me thats efficient and lightweight. One last thing, my lites are burning at 6000k so they are as white as white can be, I personally hate piss yellow lighting (27000k)
Anyway have fun at what u do thats whats important,

Dave C. Stout
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Deputydaves
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Re: XB700Li mods

A parabolic reflector focuses on a single point or reflects from a single point thats why my source is as small as practical.
I use a smaller heatsink, no need for a fan...I agree, don't waste energy for nothing. To each they're own. My head lights are blindingly bright burning only 5 watts of power. To me thats efficient and lightweight. One last thing, my lites are burning at 6000k so they are as white as white can be, I personally hate piss yellow lighting (27000k)
Anyway have fun at what u do thats whats important,

Dave C. Stout
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Heman B.
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Re: XB700Li mods

Yes, they have these lights also in white.
But if you put a regular incandescent bulb in there, the light isn't coming from one specific point.
aw well,I'll just have to wait and see how things go when my bike arrives!

Have any updates on how the court went?

Technically if your electric motor is 750W+ they are in their right to fine, but then again, no one is going to know if the bike has a 700 or 800W motor!

mf70
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Re: XB700Li mods

jeffason;
yes, that's right the frame is very light weight and the fork doesn't have any bearing either. I'd say 30mph is the max anyone should try to go. Still though I havn't had any vibrations, shimmies yet but I do hear and feel the steering column shift when I break hard/fast which is from the front fork shaft having to much play in the column. I'm thinking of welding a set of bearing in there to cure this problem.
Dave S.
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I'd bet a dough-nut or two that your Li700 has the same head bearings my XB600 has. Indeed, they DO need to be watched and kept tight, or you will get more shimmy than you can deal with. I agree with the built-in speed limit, even with properly adjusted head bearings.

mark

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Re: XB700Li mods

Hi, I'm new to this forum and a complete novice when it comes to the world of electronics! However, I will hopefully be taking delivery of my new XB-700Li in a couple of days ( fingers crossed it reaches be in one piece ) I chose the 700 because of it's size and hopefully comfort ( UK spec bikes are extremely small and flimsy by comparison ) I will be using the scooter to commute some 8 miles a day which consists of a downhill journey there, and then an uphill section on the return journey ( 800ft elevation / 3/4 mile approx ) I am quite light at 161Lb's but having read some of the threads on here, am already considering some mods to increase the bikes climbing ability. As well as my daily commute I will be using the bike for recreational trips in my area, this will be on fairly busy A roads where I really feel that the ability to reach 30mph and keep up with the traffic flow will be an essential safety requirement. So my question is of course, as a complete novice who understands very little about electronics what are the simplest modifications I can undertake to achieve these goals?
Thanks in advance for any replies

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Re: XB700Li mods

I rode the 700li for almost two years, and put 3500 miles on it. My commute was almost the same as yours at 8 miles round trip, and I am 6'2", 225. Mine had the older LiMn batteries, and I am hoping the new cells are much improved. I had two complaints with the 700li over those 2 years. One was that it shook and rattled over the smallest of bumps, and I felt that at $1700 it should have been considerably more solid. The pedals would fall off and the mirrors needed constant readjusting. I had to replace a few plastic parts that broke, like the trunk. And the second complaint was that brand new it would do 35 miles on a charge without breaking a sweat, and 3500 miles later, the range was down to around 8 miles, and making it home from work was an adventure.

For almost the same price, I picked up a floor demo model of the 4000li with only 14 miles on it and have been blown away by what this cycle is capable of. I have 17,986 miles on it, replaced the lithium cells under the 2 year warranty at the 2 year mark with a much improved GBS cell with battery balancers on all 20 cells, and my 4000li will do over 50mph and my best range to date is 48 miles.

The 700li does have regen, which is nice. And hopefully the new LiPo cells will last a lot longer! And of course no insurance registration or license with a 700li.

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