jealousy

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antiscab
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jealousy

looks like im a bit behind with my conversion.

anyway, a friend by the user name of hibbahellfire sends me these pics (he only lives 10km way from me)

posted here with permission of owner:

lithium 40 x 40Ah 001.JPG

lithium 40 x 40Ah 002.JPG

lithium 40 x 40Ah 003.JPG

lithium 40 x 40Ah 004.JPG

jdh2550_1
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Re: jealousy

Oh boy! I can understand the subject line :-)

But, does it run?

p.s. how many cells is that? I gave up trying to count them from the picture...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

Reid250
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Re: jealousy

Perhaps the picture of the speedometer at 110Kph is an indication that it runs?
40 Cells, 120V nominal.

azvectrix
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Re: jealousy

Very exciting! Please, more details!

jdh2550_1
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Re: jealousy

Perhaps the picture of the speedometer at 110Kph is an indication that it runs?

Nope. Not unless he's going around a very sharp corner (and has a side car). I think what we're seeing is just the charging sequence (look at the angle of the handlebars and look closely at the left hand LCD).

On closer inspection perhaps he was doing 110kph in his workshop and he yanked hard right on the handlebars to avoid running into the work bench that is visible just ahead of him... ;-)

40 Cells, 120V nominal.

Thanks for counting :-)

40 cells of LFP is nominal of 128V not 120V - which is a good match for the nominal 125V of original NiMH pack.

Assuming they're 40Ah cells then that's a nice increase in storage as well as decrease in weight - up to a 5.12kWh pack (from 3.7kWh).

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
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Re: jealousy

Not to take anything away from the guy who has done this but he's at about step two on a long road to getting an LFP solution. I'm sure he knows that - just pointing out to folks who are keenly waiting for such a solution there's a ways to go yet.

One of the most interesting aspect of those pictures is that he's interfaced to the bikes electronics so that the dashboard is showing the charging process. So I'm guessing he's not just put a LFP pack in there and charging it independently.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

procrastination inc
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Re: jealousy

thanks for the pics matt

looks like he is using the ts 40Ah cells and EVworks BMS.

no fans... did the motor control heat sink get some additional cooling?

I was really close to going this way late last year, but you scared me off with your experience of life of these cells at hi C. It'll be interesting to see how this conversion runs. Kudos to the builder :)

How did he deal with the factory nimh BMS?

Rods recent comparo is interesting.

http://evworks.com.au/tech/ThunderSkyVsSkyEnergy/

maybe the SE cells would cope better.

procrastination inc
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Re: jealousy

I wonder if the cells will fit better layed on their side.

3 blocks 13,13 and 14 cells

could be cables in the same 3 way split and anderson plug like the stock pack.

I like that set up because it reduces voltage and increases safety during maintenance/build

procrastination inc
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Re: jealousy

I wonder if the cells will fit better layed on their side.

3 blocks 13,13 and 14 cells

could be cabled in the same 3 way split and anderson plug as the stock pack.

I like that set up because it increases safety by reducing exposed voltages during maintenance/build

if they do fit, you could keep the existing fan assembly

antiscab
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Re: jealousy

Not to take anything away from the guy who has done this but he's at about step two on a long road to getting an LFP solution. I'm sure he knows that - just pointing out to folks who are keenly waiting for such a solution there's a ways to go yet.

One of the most interesting aspect of those pictures is that he's interfaced to the bikes electronics so that the dashboard is showing the charging process. So I'm guessing he's not just put a LFP pack in there and charging it independently.

thats not actually as hard as it sounds,

the orignal "BMS" consists of only a bunch of temp sensors and IIRC 3 wires taps to measure the voltage in subsections of the pack.

wiring the sub-section taps into the pack shouldn't be hard, and the temp sensors can be left wired in as is (though obviously removed from the old battery).

the temp sensors on mine will be "tricked" into thinking the pack is *really* cold, so it will charge to a higher voltage (im using more cells).

that lithium BMS has a master that can cut power to the charger if any cell heads above 4v.

it also has a buzzer that tells you when any cell drops below 2.5v for more than a second (but given that 108v/40 = 2.7vpc average, unless a cell is significantly lower than the rest, that shouldn't be a problem).

the stock guage only reads up to 33Ah, which gives 7Ah reserve when all bars are gone.

the red battery tell-tale occurs when 70A@108v is no longer possible,
which for 40 40Ah cells occurs at around 40Ah, according to Rods graph.

if you run the pack past 0 bars, the stock charger will put 33Ah into the pack at CP 1500W, then the rest would be at 3A.

not sure what he has done about controller cooling, ill ask him.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: jealousy

I was really close to going this way late last year, but you scared me off with your experience of life of these cells at hi C. It'll be interesting to see how this conversion runs. Kudos to the builder :)

heh, yes sorry for that.
i still think the 40Ah cells won't last as long as promised in a Vectrix, but the 2010 build cells should last longer than my old 2007 build cells.

The chemistry has been improved in those years.

My 40Ah cells gave me 500cycles before dropping to 75% of original capacity.
they were rated to 0.3C cont and 3C peak (30 sec)
i used them at 1.4C cont and 6-7C peak (5sec)

the new cells are rated 0.5C cont and 4C peak (30 sec)
in a vectrix, 40 x 40Ah cells 0.5C cont is ~2.5kw
but even if punnishing them as i did, (and pretending there has been no cell improvement),
thats still ~25'000km to 75% of original capacity, going 80-90kmh average.

im going to give my old emax pack to a friend to continue the punnishment. well see if it gives another 20'000km.

im still going for 60Ah cells for good measure though, to keep the C rates down. (0.5C cont, 5C peak)

a friend has 2006 build cells,
hes been discharging them at 0.3C with 3C peaks since day one.
~500 equiv cycles later, less than 5% capacity drop.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Reid250
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Re: jealousy

Does the needle on the speedo park at 110 kph? Or am I reading it wrong?

I'm more than a little confused by the use of the word nominal. My pack of 20 of these cells is referred to by the manufacturer as 60V Nominal. The word nominal, meaning approximate. As in 12V automotive. So how do we come up with 40 of these cells being 128V nominal?

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

its easy to do it charges runs and charges all fine

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

its easy to do

Mik
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Re: jealousy

Better remove your email from view, you will get hammered with spam!

It might also be a lot easier to answer questions on the forum, because many people will ask the same questions that others have already asked.

Good luck with it!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

thanks mik

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

you cant lie them on there side they have liquid in them and the vent needs to be up right

turok
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Re: jealousy

Hey Hibbahellfire,

indeed, good luck on this project!

This looks hot, and i'm all excited! (not that I need more range, but it will be a relief if someone actually succeeds to make LFP work on a V)

Plz plz plz keep us informed!

Kudos!

"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment

procrastination inc
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Re: jealousy

hey Hibba,

I AM hell jealous :)

I heard about your project even before I bought my bike

re: laying them on their side.

EVworks tell me as far as they know and have tested so far. It is ok.

Thundersky report the same.

there is a local fella here with TS90's on their sides, but I don't think they have many cycles on them yet

procrastination inc
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Re: jealousy

"its easy to do it charges runs and charges all fine"

I see on your charge cycle photos, the display shows 30 degrees. Do you have your factory temp sensors on the TS cells, or just hanging in ambient air?

The factory BMS, I guess if the input voltages are all 0V then there is no imbalance to detect. Have you got the battery connections on that hanging loose too?

Any thermal protection/ detection on the TS cells?

cheers

Jason

procrastination inc
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Re: jealousy

"Does the needle on the speedo park at 110 kph? Or am I reading it wrong?

I'm more than a little confused by the use of the word nominal. My pack of 20 of these cells is referred to by the manufacturer as 60V Nominal. The word nominal, meaning approximate. As in 12V automotive. So how do we come up with 40 of these cells being 128V nominal?"

from my limited understanding, 110km/h during charging means that the charger is delivering 11 amps, that'd be right at a pack voltage of 136V during the 1500W Constant Power phase.

nominal voltage of these cells is 3.2V. 40 x 3.2 = 128V, But, these cells seem to hit and hold 3.0V under normal working loads for most of their capacity. It seems most use 3V per cell as a reasonable working figure for a loaded cell.

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

will post more photos for you all tomoz look hard and you all be able to work it out .

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

cut one of the cells open hold it over your mouth and tell me what it tast like when its dripping in
vent needs to be up right up righ up right so ive been told by the man.

hibbahellfire@g...
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Re: jealousy

iam going to add 2 more cells so voltage is 140 volts i think this is better also it lowers cell voltage by .1 also it will give me may be 5 % % in crease in range so far 1 amp hr is 2 kmls do the sums on that figure may be able to get .9 amp hr to 2 k so far its cost me 4100 to do this 3600 for batt system 500 for top notch voltage gauge with ipod build in and up scaler two more cells 170 i burnt the heat sink fan with the seat light sensor by leaving it loose ringing james on monday to hot shot over to me thinking off having a work shop meeting at my house soon to go over the bike any one in perth western aus can come along iam in canning vale so tell me your thoughts

Reid250
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Re: jealousy

Thanks for the correlation between the speedo and charging current.
I charge my battery and leave sit 24 hours, then measure each cell. All 20 cells are at 3.33-3.34V using two different VOM's. No BMS. I'm going to check them once a month or once per 1000Km.

antiscab
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Re: jealousy

looking good Hibba,

a workshop visit would be really awesome :D

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: jealousy

another photo (note temp sensors):

lithium 40 x 40Ah 005.JPG

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

R
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Re: jealousy

I must admit I'm also jealousy....Great job!

allanbairstow
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Re: jealousy

Hi All, I won't clog up this thread but I just want to say 'I want one'. I'll be watching this closely and if its a fairly simple task to accomplish I will do it to mine when the warranty runs out. Whats the expected range increase ? Just curious. Allan

Electric traction is the future.

jdh2550_1
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Re: jealousy

I'm more than a little confused by the use of the word nominal. My pack of 20 of these cells is referred to by the manufacturer as 60V Nominal. The word nominal, meaning approximate. As in 12V automotive. So how do we come up with 40 of these cells being 128V nominal?

I use nominal of 3.2V because that's what the voltage of the cell is for the majority of the discharge cycle at 1C or 0.5C. See the graphs on the second page of this document: http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/TS-LFP40.pdf

I believe "nominal" voltage for batteries is considered the average voltage during the discharge cycle. With a typical 12V lead acid battery it starts at 13.x (can't remember x) but drops down below 11 (again, can't remember the numbers). 12V nominal for PbA thus is listed because that's the average. I think most battery manufacturers quote 3.2V as the per cell nominal. I suspect the "manufacturer" quoting 60V nominal for your 20 cells is not the battery manufacturer - folks like to use 3V because of our 12V lead acid heritage.

I do agree with procrastination-inc (love that nickname!) that using 3V under load is worthwhile for "available power" calculations, but I think 3.2V is reasonable to use for pack capacity calculations.

Hope this helps.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
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Re: jealousy

cut one of the cells open hold it over your mouth and tell me what it tast like when its dripping in
vent needs to be up right up righ up right so ive been told by the man.

We've asked repeatedly and been told on their sides is OK. We've done our own testing as well.

Venting only happens when the cell is abused it's a fail safe mechanism to stop the cells building up so much pressure that they "explode". When they're on their sides venting may be slightly messier because of some ejected liquid - but it still vents.

Now, I wouldn't recommend mounting them upside down...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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