a new power source for electric vehicles:
slightly lower energy density when compared to Lithium Batteries... but not by much from my initial test!
extra weight added to the power system of your vehicle of choice... ie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiz-GY30d-E
high voltage discharge...may do this to you if you are a noob... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WheLp0RdLQ ...a potato... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqgxQG1PyfM&feature=related ...a watermelon... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj1pkyCL75E&feature=related ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIkNY5xjy5k ...get the disclaimer picture
instantaneous charging capability...can you say a 1 minute full charge ...needz bigz wirez thoughz orz thiz wouldz happenz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzKAFS6Lyrg
instantaneous regen capability...can you say absorb most of the available regen energy in a matter of seconds... an analogy from yours truely little twit oldfart dennis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6voVYic4aS4
claimed extremely long lifespan if not damaged due to abuse... ie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5v4_AlDQTo&feature=related ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG6GR_Gow0w ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nzq2GorVH4&feature=related ...
testing info to follow...
The test bed will be http://twitpic.com/18l6gf... guess this would be the place for this thread
controller is limited to 25 to 26 amp peak, so I won't be using the full discharge potential of the caps...but they are amazing!
regen is possible on this set up and I can control the regen voltage since it only regens when I pedal and spin the mid drive motor... a non-geared hub motor would be a better candidate but I would need a higher voltage pack since downhill regen voltages are much higher than the 48V pack I am testing... don't want this to happenz going downhill... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V3OZMW_45M&feature=related
anyways more to follow when I getz somez data...
scratch that statement...it's completely false, I did a seat of the pants test on the bike and the range of the 48V 3000 farad capacitor bank charged at 41 volts gives a range of about 1/12 of the stock 37V 10Ah LiPO charged at 41 volts ... twelve: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0165-48-6v.asp = one: http://www.batteryspace.com/highpowerpolymerli-ionboxbattery37v10ah370wh40arateinaluminiumenclosureafireretardantbag.aspx ...if you are comparing energy density in Ah... hmmmmmm interesting
I should have stated a new hybrid power source for electric vehicles...
a container of lightning http://twitpic.com/19xbye farads & ampheres...
hmmm...in parallel with...
i did wonder at the first post.
3000 farads between 41v and 25v = 440Wh
37v 10Ah = 370Wh
looks like the ultra caps win,
except maxwell don't make a 3000F 48v cap bank.
they make 48v cap bank made of 3000F cells (20 x 3000F cells in series = 150F)
3000F at 48v weighs around 260kg.
165F between 41v and 25v weighs 14.2kg, and gives ~25Wh.
they do increase power density if you are looking for less than 2 seconds worth.
over more than 2 seconds, you are better off with more battery to increase power.
(cheap large format LiFePO4 is at ~500w/kg now, those caps over 2.8sec are also ~500w/kg)
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
The test pack I put together is an 18 x 2.7V 3000F cells (BCAP3000-P270-T04) in series http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18_20_39&products_id=18 ...I guess Farads are not calculated in the same manner as lithium batteries
picture here: http://twitpic.com/19xbye ...sold as an integration kit at http://www.tecategroup.com/capacitors/datasheets/powerburst/MCI%20Integration%20Kit.pdf
Power Density...Better off with more batteries???...here is where you may have it wrong.
If one takes the attribute of both the battery and ultracapacitor and combine it into a hybrid power system...something amazing is created...
regen...I have tested this with LiMn batteries on my Bionx kitted Dahon...does not work too well to say the least, but with Ultracaps, it's a new ball game.
discharge...the new high C discharge LiPO4 and LiPO's are some what close to ultracapacitors' performance but at a price...long gevity...on the other hand...Ultracapacitors claimed performance is not diminished from high C discharges. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.
The controller on my electric bikey limits the discharge rate to 25-26 amps, so i'm not using it's full potential...but from what I've seen...simply charging the ultracaps up with high amps...they are simply amazing! have you witnessed throbbing 12 and 10 guage wires due to high charge current!!! ...only time will tell how long they really last in the real world for me...but I trust Maxwell technologies' claimed performance numbers for their ultracaps are not bull shit.
Just a tid bit of test info...simply plugging the ultracap module in series with my pouched standard discharge 38.4V LiFePO4 batteries increased their Amp discharge over the entire discharge rate of the pack from 41V to about 31 volts...the bikey controller's voltage protection cut off...adding an additional 40 Ah worth of batteries will increase the range but they will still not put out the same steady amp discharge as a hybrid battery/ultracapacitor power module...and last...the ultra capacitor module has a claimed life of infinity when compared to batteries... ...I see other uses for this test module...scalable ... hmmmmmm
Dennis thanks for sharing beautiful information i recently join the forum and enjoy your knowledge much, thanks
testking 350-018 - testking 642-524 - testking 70-647 - http://www.testkings.co
Thanks for sharing.
I wanted to do the same thing once (use ultracapacitors to help with acceleration in parallel with the battery).
And yes, you can easily to regenerative breaking with them.
In fact, I think all the electric cars, and some of thy hybrids have ultracapacitors on board for the regen.
Does your module have a controller to limit the voltage of each Cap?
I am not aware of any car manufacturer using ultracapacitors as a power/regen module like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk7xbcnzxks. I'm sure their engineers are working on it.
Yes, here is a quote from http://www.tecategroup.com/capacitors/datasheets/powerburst/PBM%20User%20Manual.pdf
3.2.2 Module to module Connections
The PBM modules are equipped with the active voltage management circuit that protects and monitors every cell within the
module. Module-to-module balancing is not required.
Each individual cell voltage is monitored by the management circuit. Each cell is protected from entering an over voltage condition.
If any cell does experience an over voltage condition, the corresponding LED will illuminate and the active circuitry will begin to
discharge that cell. Once the cell is back within nominal operation voltage limits, the LED will extinguish.
Voltage management circuitry does not prevent an individual capacitor or series of capacitors from over voltage condition if
prolonged charging to a higher than specified voltage persists (2.7V/cell). Provisions should be made with the system integration to
prevent prolonged over voltage conditions.
I have a couple of BionX kits, is there a way that you know of hacking the kit and and adding a few Ultra Capacitors cells to optimise Regen and acceleration?
I would imagine this would also increase the cells life as the Ultra-capacitors would discharge first and capture the excess regen current. I saw somewhere of a methods of hacking a BionX batteries to add LiFePo cells, I wonder if the same method could be use to add UC,
Here is the link of the Hack... http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7813
There is a problem with the regen system when hacked. At least with the early before Can-Bus Bionx kit that I had. The first battery board blew when I went down a really steep hill under full regen with 4 LiFePO4 batteries in a backpack. The second battery board we used was a board with regen disabled from a crash when the bike was laid down. It worked good with the 4 after market batteries...here is a thread of the tests http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5347&start=90...but then I decided to test the system without the batteries to see what would happen if I spun the motor with the Schlumpf High Speed drive in high gear on a bicycle stand. Without the batteries plugged into the system, the hub motor spun fast, almost without any resistance...the Bionx consol stayed on from the voltage generated by the spinning hub motor...the speed reading on the Bionx consol climbed up to 60+ mph and the Watts-Up meter that I had connected to the battery wire went blank as it climbed above 60 volts and then it was lights out...the controller inside the motor blew due to the high regen voltage. Even though the regen function wasn't working with that battery board, the motor still sends regen current back to the batteries when it spins fast enough. I kind of understand what was happening when I experienced that boost effect at speeds above 42 mph going down a steep hill. The BMS in the LiFePO4 batteries do not allow high voltage charging, so the high regen voltage is fed back to the motor which would boost the speed of the hub motor along with the speed gained from gravity. That was the pulsing sensation I felt as the bike lurched up to 51-52 mph and back to 46-47 mph and then back up to 51-52 mph and so on...which is unlike the smooth speed of a downhill run with a non motorized bicycle. During the tests, I never exceeded 52 mph, so the regen voltage did not damage the controller inside the hub motor.
Back to your question, yes the ulta-caps would increase cell life but the system I had when hacked did not control the regen voltage, so it will not work...it may work with a high voltage ultra-cap pack say 72V or more but then it adds more weigh to the system. Maybe someone that understands the electronics can alter the board, who knows? I'm done with all test for the Bionx system...no more parts on hand to blow.
I'll guess that I'll wait until my battery dies or drops dramatically before trying to hack it a bit, it would be great to have an integrated system, If you had ultracap regen efficiency and batteries life would be extended dramatically and the value proposition would change dramatically. But I imagine the logic of how to manage both type of energy sources is not that simple. As it is there is not much advantage from BionX to petrol prices, minus your conscience and your health of course.
I imagine you have one of the newer kits, did you post a thread to share your experiences? Bionx have made many improvements in their newer kits. Who knows, maybe one day they will include ultra caps to soak up the regen voltage and multiple high voltage boost caps that bucks the voltage up and pulse on and off like the timing of a multi piston internal combustion engine to create a more efficent and powerful electric drive system. I hope they will also make their electronics more robust if they have not already and use higher voltage FETS in their controller so they will not blow if a customer decides to ride their kitted bike without a battery down a steep hill.
Hey guys and gals. First time poster here but I've been lurking for a while. I'm in the planning process of building my first electric assisted bicycle! I've been really excited about the idea ever since I recently discovered electric hub motors. They are AMAZING!!
The reason I am posting here is because my power source will come from BCAP3000 Maxwell Ucaps. These are used, possibly contaminated cells. I will probably be getting around 10 or 15 of these. They seem to have quite a bit of juice and might fit my application. My goal is to make a 35mi round trip commute to and from work (hopefully able to charge at work) with potential speeds for 30mph. Am I crazy for thinking this is possible with these ucaps?
I am overwhelmed with the hub motor choices and I need a good place to start. Right now I'm thinking a kit without the batteries is the best way to go? If I can even buy what I need that way. Before I discovered this site I thought Crystalyte manufacturer was the way to go but now I realize there are many other options. I'm looking for reliability and quality along with helpful customer service.
Looking for a good place to start for a first time builder. I feel like I've got a good thing going with these hand-me-down ucaps but I may be wrong? I would love to get some more information and knowledge from anyone interested and experienced.
Thanks in advance. Glad I found this place. :)
Its exactly what Im doing too. Put a 2.5v 400ma solar cell on each UltraCap (about £5 each) bang the lot in series and ull be amazed. On a sunny day the thing will charge up enough to help each time u hit a hill!
Im getting less than ten minutes when using it continuously, so it is more an aid for slopes and hills giving it a chance to recharge in between
Digitalnerd wrote: "My goal is to make a 35mi round trip commute to and from work (hopefully able to charge at work) with potential speeds for 30mph. Am I crazy for thinking this is possible with these ucaps?"
You may want to read this thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7511
My 18 cell BCAP3000 pack charge at 41 volts will only run my 600 watt Hanebrink for about 120 yards at about 25 mph...that is from 41 volts to 31 volts at a steady 20-23 amp discharge rate. 10-15 BCAP3000 ultracap cells will definitely not power your bike for 35 miles at 30 mph.
I'm seeing how the 'magic' of supercaps kinda hit the fan when the four letter word came into play : math.
But considering that Dennis only used 1/4 or so of the energy from his caps, 120 yards is not too bad.
I want to try building a switching 'boost' power supply to let such a system get about 3/4 of the energy out of the caps. I agree that the caps can be used for a short duration high current burst.