The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

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xaavii
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The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

It isn't always, but if I charge my Vectrix VX-1 three times a week, sure that one time dosn't charge 100%, the charge stops at 50% or 60%. I brought the scooter to my seller, but after one week investigating, the scooter makes the same. Has anyone the solution? Can you help me?

richard_durant
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

I don't know if my problem is the same, but I almost never finish my charges too. I've got my Vectrix since one week : the very first charge was OK, since then it always stopped before the end. The second and the third charges stopped at about 60%. I had the luck to see what aborted the second charge (I was sitting on the bike when it happened) : the battery and the temperature lights blinks for a few seconds and then everything shut off. The battery temperature was around 27 C°. The Vectrix tried an equalization charge on the fourth one, but it was stopped by a BATHOT after height hours of charge, the battery temperature appeared to be 51 C° when the BATHOT disappeared. Since then, all the charges stopped near then end of the CC stage : it displays CO 000 with no fan running until I unplugged it. When I plug it again, it finish the CC stage for a few minutes, and then finally displays EC.

I checked all the fans (I can ear the two impellers running, air blows through the grille above the front wheel and the fan on the charger radiator, inside the body above the front wheel, blows air too), but I suspect an overheating problem, because of the temperature light I saw once, despite the fact that, except during the equalization charge, the battery temperature never exceeded 30 C° during the charges.

I'm waiting for the first service, in three weeks, hoping the Vectrix mechanics could fix that. Has someone an advice about that ?

Richard.

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Steve Scott
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Check that both Plenum fans are working
It needs both of them or the batteries will overheat during charging resulting in early charge temination.
Remove the seat and you will see 4 small screws in a square near the front of the flat part of the plenum and 2 near the back with the other 2 missing (empty holes).
With the bike plugged in and the fans rumming gently press down on those parts of the plenum first the front and then the rear.
You should hear and feel the fan contact the cover and make a rasping noise.

Steve Scott

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Thank you, Steve, for your reply. I've found a poor contact on the plug under the seat. I could ear one of the fans stopping and starting again when I gently shaked the wires connected on this plug. I tightened the contacts, and now everything is OK. I can ear distinctly one fan starting after the other when I unplugged and plugged again the plug under the seat, but I couldn't feel the rear fan when I pressed the plastic cover (I felt the front fan). I hope I've found the problem, I'll let you know the result of the next charges.

Why didn't I have a BATHOT at the end of every faulty charge if it was an battery overheating problem (I had it only once during an equalization charge) ?

Richard.

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Mik
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

...
...
Why didn't I have a BATHOT at the end of every faulty charge if it was an battery overheating problem (I had it only once during an equalization charge) ?

Richard.

I think it's because the battery was not really hot, just experiencing a large temperature difference between the front and rear pack.

In the EQ charge the lack of cooling will cause the battery without running impeller to really overheat - then the Bathot comes on.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Seems logical, Mik, thanks for your answer. So, there is a hope I haven't already damaged my battery ... Except if only one BATHOT is enough to do so ! The range is still very good (ten bars for 36 kms at an average of 45 kph, with peaks at 90 kph), so I'm optimistic.

Richard.

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Steve Scott
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

That is correct.
The fans pull the air in from the front vents and through the bottom of the battery tub from either side near the front .
The air gets pulled through the packs but the rear battery allways runs slightly hotter when charging because it is getting air that has been slightly warmed by the front battery .
If you have one of the cooling fans stop that would be exagerated causing an overheat.

You say that you never always saw batt hot but how long after the charge had stopped were you looking at it ,because it may have cooled enough when you went to use it.

Steve Scott

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

That is correct.
The fans pull the air in from the front vents and through the bottom of the battery tub from either side near the front .
The air gets pulled through the packs but the rear battery allways runs slightly hotter when charging because it is getting air that has been slightly warmed by the front battery .
If you have one of the cooling fans stop that would be exagerated causing an overheat.

You say that you never always saw batt hot but how long after the charge had stopped were you looking at it ,because it may have cooled enough when you went to use it.

I checked the charging process very often so I hadn't miss the failure of more than an hour. Knowing the fact that it take days to the batteries to cool down without the fans on, I'm almost shure that there where no BATHOT, because I never saw a temperature over 30 C°, except when it did an EC charge.

BTW, the last interrupted charge finished OK since I fixed the plug, but I'd like to see a few charges with no problem before being relieved ! I'm amazed by the poor quality of this plug : the batteries life depends on it, and there is no software check of the fans. It would be easy to check the resistance of the fan motors before switching them on, and I'm sure that would have saved some batteries life !

Richard.

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

I had the same problem with my new bike. My front battery fan wasn't working and I got BATHOT battery telltale.

Be sure not to discharge the battery below 5 battery bars until your next EQ charging!!!

Your front battery pack and rear battery pack are now seriously out of balance, because one was cooled and the other was not. Drive only down to 5 battery bars or above until your next EQ charge equalizes both battery packs. My first battery pack only gave me 4000km because of this.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Thanks, Andy, for your advice.

Bad news : obviously, the problem is not a poor connection in the fans plug. I can strongly shake the plug with no failure, but my charges still stop randomly. The symptom is, when I come back to the bike in the morning after a night of charge :
- the bike is shut off
- when I switch it on, still plugged, it displays "CP 000" (or "CC 000", depending on the charge stage when the failure occured), the clock displays 00:00, the voltage and the temperature are good (well below 30°), the tachometer is on 0, the fans are off, and nothing happen.
- if I unplugg it, wait a little bit, and plug it again, it resumes its charging process where it was interrupted, until end of charge (EC).

It can happen anytime during the charging process, and from time to time the charging process goes to the end with no problem.

I've got an appointment with my local dealer on friday to do a memory dump that will be send to Vectrix PL, they are supposed to answer a few days later.

If someone has a suggestion, it will be very welcome ! I hope I'm not slowly damaging my batteries but, except for the charging, my Vectrix behave perfectely normaly.

Xaavii, do you still have your problem ?

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

If your battery is not being overheated, overcharged or overdischarged, your battery will be fine.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

I'm worrying about overcharged or unbalanced cells because I suspect an impeller weakness to cause a difference of temperature between the two pack of batteries, stopping the charge by the software for safety reason. When the impellers start running, I can hear one of them starting sooner and stronger than the other one, but I don't know if my hypothesis is plausible ...

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

AndY1
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

My impellers sometimes start both at the same time, but sometimes one after another. I haven't found a way to reproduce either, because it seems so random. Oh yeah, one is louder than the other.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

I'm worrying about overcharged or unbalanced cells because I suspect an impeller weakness to cause a difference of temperature between the two pack of batteries, stopping the charge by the software for safety reason. When the impellers start running, I can hear one of them starting sooner and stronger than the other one, but I don't know if my hypothesis is plausible ...

I do not think it is plausible.

Your bike seems to have a (software determined) random charge termination error of sort.

If the impeller was malfunctioning, then the battery temperature would still be high the next morning. The system has no way of noticing if the impellers, or just one, or none, are running. It just puts 12V DC towards where it thinks the impellers are. It does not know if they actually run as a result! Only temperature difference or heating will alert the system of an impeller malfunction.

I routinely run the charger without the impellers connected, because I use the ABCool to drive the impellers instead.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

richard_durant
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Only temperature difference or heating will alert the system of an impeller malfunction.

I think it might be the case : if one of my impeller is weak, it could generate a temperature difference large enough for the system to stop the charge, long before a BATHOT. Am I wrong ?

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

I can't comment what happens with the latest firmware, but with the one prior to Oct 2008, I had this happen and it happily continued to charge. My front pack's impeller didn't work and front battery got 44°C hot and the battery telltale indicating 15°C temperature difference between the cells lit, but wasn't enough for BATHOT.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

I can't comment what happens with the latest firmware, but with the one prior to Oct 2008, I had this happen and it happily continued to charge. My front pack's impeller didn't work and front battery got 44°C hot and the battery telltale indicating 15°C temperature difference between the cells lit, but wasn't enough for BATHOT.

Did your battery temperature display showed 44° at that time ? If the answer is yes, my hypothesis is less plausible, because mine never exceeded 30° (except when it did an EO charge).

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

AndY1
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Yes:
//www.shrani.si/f/v/9e/4OIOtu4R/1/dsc00533.jpg)

This wasn't 44°C for the whole pack, but just for the one with non functional impeller. That's why the battery telltale is lit.

Mik
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely
I can't comment what happens with the latest firmware, but with the one prior to Oct 2008, I had this happen and it happily continued to charge. My front pack's impeller didn't work and front battery got 44°C hot and the battery telltale indicating 15°C temperature difference between the cells lit, but wasn't enough for BATHOT.

Did your battery temperature display showed 44° at that time ? If the answer is yes, my hypothesis is less plausible, because mine never exceeded 30° (except when it did an EO charge).

The 30degC reported is why I think it is not an overheating problem. But it also depends on ambient temperature!

Both impellers could be running, but if for example a mouse has built a little cosy nest in the exhaust channel of one of them, there will be reduced air flow!
This problem can be prevented like this: //i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/Battery/Battery%20rework%205%20BMS/th_DSC06228.jpg)
http://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/7054

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Both places where I connect my Vectrix are underground parkings where the temperature is usually around 18°C. About the mouse, it's a very interresting idea : I'll try to hold a little piece of cheese above the rear wheel, and wait for something to move. But I won't do it in a public area, only in my own private garage, with the door closed ... Who are those strong guys dressed in white, who bring me in that white van with a blue light on the roof ?

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Just out my dealer. He'll send my memory dump to Vectrix PL on monday, hoping an answer two days later. He suspects a charger problem. Fortunately, the failure did occured in front of him ! He could only show me the temperature of each cell (lowest was 30°C and the highest was 38°C, the difference is acceptable to him), and a few other things, but he had no access to the log with his software. Good point, the Vectrix was plugged to the USB port of his laptop, so the hardware is quiet simple to do the same check-up by myself. Just need to find the good software ... might be the hardest point !

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Mik
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

richard_durant
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Yes, Mik, I know : RTFM (Read The F... Manual) ! But I didn't find any software able to read the Vectrix logs in those threads. It looks like some kind of holy graal !

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

My Vectrix just starting doing this a month or so ago. I have 8,000 miles on the '07 VX-1. When attempting the equalization charge the charger will fill the batteries up to the last 2 or 3 bars on the fuel guage without a significant increase in the battery temperature, but while attempting to complete the charge and fill the last couple of bars, the temperature shoots up dramatically, the charger finally gives up, and I'm left with a hot battery pack, and only partial charge.

I wrote an email about this to Dana DeCosta and he answered me saying that it sounds like the, "charger needs to be reset". I don't think it's something I can do myself. I got the impression that he'll be heading out to the west coast again next year to work on some bikes, so hopefully he'll stop by and reset my charger then.

I will post an update when possible.

Mik
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

My Vectrix just starting doing this a month or so ago. I have 8,000 miles on the '07 VX-1. When attempting the equalization charge the charger will fill the batteries up to the last 2 or 3 bars on the fuel guage without a significant increase in the battery temperature, but while attempting to complete the charge and fill the last couple of bars, the temperature shoots up dramatically, the charger finally gives up, and I'm left with a hot battery pack, and only partial charge.

I wrote an email about this to Dana DeCosta and he answered me saying that it sounds like the, "charger needs to be reset". I don't think it's something I can do myself. I got the impression that he'll be heading out to the west coast again next year to work on some bikes, so hopefully he'll stop by and reset my charger then.

I will post an update when possible.

Your Vectrix is in fact getting more than a full charge if the battery heats up. It's just that the display is not shown as full yet, because for some reason the system thinks there should be some more empty capacity left.

One reason for this can be reduced battery capacity, in which case it is a case of "Recharge after BALPOR". The BAttery Low POint gets Reset when you ride until it's empty and the bars disappear and the red light comes on. The the system tries to put a complete charge into the battery. The battery might be balanced with all cells having the same reduced capacity, or imbalanced with some cells reversing towards the end of the ride. Either way, the normal amount of Ah cannot be charged into the battery if it does not have the capacity any more or if the majority of cells were not really empty at the BALPOR point.

It could also be that the SOC is set incorrectly because you never ride to very low battery.

Oobflyer, if your battery is good, then you should be able to ride for another 2 or 3 bars after it shows empty. The following recharge will then end with a full display. If you have a few damaged cells, they will get damaged more in the process. If your cells are all fairly equally reduced in capacity, then they will not get damaged much by the deep discharge, but the Recharge after BALPOR will end with less than 17 bars again.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

R
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

If only we could bought a NIMH BMS...

mikemitbike
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

If only we could bought a NIMH BMS...

R, don´t buy it build it ;-)
But to be serious again at least a cell basing overvoltage protection,
like used for single LifePo4 cells would at least protect the cells
from overcharging and cooking them.

Greetings Mike

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

if your battery is good, then you should be able to ride for another 2 or 3 bars after it shows empty.

I have never experienced this. Long before the fuel gauge shows 'empty' on my bike the power drops down to nearly nothing (usually at around 5 or 6 bars), and I limp home at low speed, with the red battery light on. Occasionally the 'BALPOR' message appears before I pull into the garage. Does your Vectrix continue to run after the last bar disappears? I thought my experience was typical, but now you've got me curious. I've been riding it for 2 1/2 years, and have never been able to ride it below 5 or 6 bars (at full speed).

To clarify, the bars usually drop off one by one (2 or 3 miles per bar), until I reach the last 5 or 6 bars, at which point I lose power (maximum speed drops to around 35 MPH), and then the bars begin disappearing at a rate of 2 or 3 per mile (i.e., I can limp slowly for another mile or two). By the time the last bar drops off I am only traveling at a speed of 5 or 10 MPH, and soon after the last bar disappears the BALPOR message appears. Is this different from your experience?

I have a relatively long commute, so I see the red battery light quite often (about every other day), but I haven't pushed it to the point of BALPOR recently (haven't seen it in a month or so). I will try it this week to see what happens.

Thanks!

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

To clarify, the bars usually drop off one by one (2 or 3 miles per bar), until I reach the last 5 or 6 bars, at which point I lose power (maximum speed drops to around 35 MPH), and then the bars begin disappearing at a rate of 2 or 3 per mile (i.e., I can limp slowly for another mile or two). By the time the last bar drops off I am only traveling at a speed of 5 or 10 MPH, and soon after the last bar disappears the BALPOR message appears. Is this different from your experience?

My brand new battery (the one Mik pulled apart and measured the least capacity cell to be 29Ah) could go all the way to 0 bars before the red light came on, but only immediately after an equalisation charge.

an other time and self discharge would stop you using around a 1/3rd of the capacity.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

Oobflyer, what I meant to say was this: If it is just a gauge synchronisation issue and your battery was charged to full, but with only 14 bars shown on the gauge, then you should be able to ride it to 3 bars less than usual before the power restrictions etc kick in.

Under the same circumstances, if your battery was good, then you could continue to ride for the equivalent of three bars even after the gauge shows empty.

I have driven 30km after the gauge first showed empty - not because of miraculous battery capacity, but because some glitch during charging set the gauge to near empty. I knew however that the energy had been put into the battery, so I rode home without problems.

AFAIK there is no BALPOR message. I made that acronym up to save on typing! I would be very surprised if it had been integrated into the newer software versions. Maybe you mean the BUsVLt + battery telltale message?

Overall, taking your above more detailed description into account, it appears that your battery has been significantly damaged for some time, with reduced capacity. It is probably due to capacity imbalance between the cells, rather than a global capacity reduction of all cells. The lower capacity cells get damaged more and more because they end up getting reversed frequently (each time you see the battery telltale towards empty battery, but probably considerably earlier). The self-discharge rate probably also increases as those cells become more and more damaged.

That leads to the "Recharge after BALPOR" phenomenon: The battery is full, as determined by the stock system by voltage and temperature rise, before the system has been able to put 17 bars worth of Ah in. It tries a few times, each time the voltage hits the maximum, then it gives up. The battery gets hot in the process.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

oobflyer
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Re: The battery of my Vectrix does not load completely

it appears that your battery has been significantly damaged for some time

My bike has always done that, from the day I brought it home. I was concerned, of course, but when I found that many others had the same experience (here on the blog), I just decided to live with it. I chalked it up to an engineering design flaw. In fact, if I remember correctly you (Mik) posted a picture with the last 5 or 6 bars of your fuel gauge crossed off with black lines! I believe I have the same range as others, but the gauge just can't be trusted. For example, when I ride slow to test the range I can get the claimed 50 miles/charge (2 hours at 25 MPH!), but again, the last 5 or 6 bars behave differently than the first 11 or 12. The last few bars rapidly disappear. If the bike moves at all after the last bar disappears, it's very, very slowly.

You're right - I did mean BUsVLt, not BALPOR. I'm not familiar with the anacronym: AFAIK.

I think I understand what you mean about "riding on empty". On the off chance that I have to unplug and ride when the bike only has 5 or 6 bars on the fuel gauge, those last 5 or 6 bars behave more like the top 5 or 6 on a full charge.

In any case, the charging process has changed significantly in the last month or so, from the previous two years, so I'm looking forward to finding out what Dana DeCosta has to say when he stops by.

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