Tonight, coming back home, I experienced something that could be scary : during a few minutes, I almost lost all of the power, the bike was only able to crawl to 40 kph with very weak accelerations. There were no warning telltale, I still had 14 bars, and the battery temperature was about 35 C°. Hopefully, I was caught in traffic jam so I didn't need too much power, but I wouldn't like that if I was passing a truck on the highway ! The phenomena lasts a few minutes, and everything went back to normal. It happened again half an hour later but, this time, I had the opportunity to stop and to "soft reset" the bike (switch off - switch on). That didn't solve the problem, accelerations were still weak but, as it did sooner, everything went back to normal a few minutes later.
All this happened during my commuting home, that I did across the city (Paris !) in traffic jam, with a maximum speed of 50 kph, but with a heavy use of regeneration. The ambient temperature was about 26 C°, and the battery temperature was about 35 C°.
Any idea ?
See if you have a CAPHOT displayed on the left display when it happens.
Was it hotter than usually?
I have had this behaviour on a very hot day after a very steep, long climb followed by steep decline followed by several full throttle accelerations.
The power for acceleration was markedly reduced, but unlike an empty battery, the top speed was not affected. Acceleration above 60km/h was less affected if I remember correctly.
So, in short, I think something was getting too hot in your motor controller.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I didn't notice anything unusual on displays. I agree with you, this behaviour looks like something getting too hot and cooling down with the reduced speed, probably the MC, but I don't understand two things :
- why didn't I have any warning light or message (typically the kind of things that I could check in real time if I had a notebook on board, with scooterdiag, connected to the PCAN ... coming soon !),
- why the MC overheated ? I did notice, when the scooter is hot and if I turn a little bit the throttle, a little noise coming from the rear that looks like a creaking fan ...
I understand now why this bike is called "VectriX" : X stands for eXperimental ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
That makes me wonder if you have a problem with the MC cooling fan!
With newer software it does not start each time that the GO is displayed - at least someone wrote that some time back. So it might be tricky to be sure about it's functioning with the newer software.
With the older software the MC fan always starts to run when the GO is activated, and it starts to really revv up as soon as you twist the throttle hard.
I think our MC fan is not working!
Better check it somehow.
Thinking back of the ride with reduced acceleration which I mentioned, I think I did not get any error messages either, just reduced acceleration from standstill. But it was really really hot (40degC in the shade and there was no shade!) and an extremely hard ride.
Have a look at this chapter: http://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/7135
I hope it helps you figure out if the MC fan is working or not.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Some V's do this. It is normal. The system gives a base voltage to the MC fan when it receives a signal from the accelerator. For some fans this voltage is enough, and they spin, but for some others it is not enough. A little harder acceleration will force the system to increase the voltage, and the fan will spin at hi speed.
I think now that is not an overheating problem for two reasons : first, I can hear the (MC ?) fan running when I climb my garage ramp. Second, the problem occured again this afternoon, after a few minutes only of slow ride, letting no time for something to heat up. The crawling mode appeared, I was limited to 30 kph. Wanting to go further in my understanding of this issue, I turn the trottle to full power and, half a minute later, the battery telltale came on ! I stopped the bike and check the voltage : 131 volts (and something like 28 C°). Swith off - switch on and, of course, all the bars disappeared (I had 14 still left ...), so I have now a bike with 131 volts and no bar ... Knowing that it was not an overheating problem nor a battery real voltage issue, I decided to shook it a little bit by doing a few full throttle - neutral - full throttle - neutral, and the power came back ! Unfortunately, I had no time left to go further in my experiment, but the bike behave perfectly during my trip back, except that I have no bar and 0 estimated range. Of course, I won't charge it now, I'll wait for the real battery telltale to do so, because I have obviously a BALPOR. I wish I have already my PCAN cable to set back my gauge bars, avoiding this boring procedure ...
To conclude, I'm convinced now that I have some kind of poor connection somewhere ... the voltage displayed is good, but the battery telltale lit ! I could rename this thread : "a trick of the telltale" ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
If you are lucky it is the cable to cell 1 at the negative battery end that is loose and gives wrong readings. If you are unlucky, it is the one going to tab 28 or tab 76. They are much much harder to get to! But it might be something else altogether!
An "erroneous BALPOR" so to say.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I would second the dodgy connection prognosis.
I was earlier thinking of a bad cell going into reversal, with 131v at no load, poor acceleration and battery tell tale.
but to then get full acceleration again, that rules out a bad battery.
*important* use a timer for charging until the guage is sorted out.
the charger will overcharge your batteries otherwise.
you will need to take the bike apart and look for bad connections.
an ohm meter and/or IR temp sensor will help there.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
I do agree with both of you about the dodgy connection. I suspect my other persistent problem (the charging process that stops randomly with a CP 000 or CC 000 code) to be linked with this one. I'm waiting for the result of a memory dump analysis that is being made by Vectrix PL (expected on tuesday) about the charging problem. Maybe, with a bit of luck, the solution will solve both problems ! I'll be delighted to try to sort this by myself but it will surely void the warranty, I've learned a lot about Vectrix's behaviour about this matter from Mik's misadventures !
Anyway, I'll explain my power problem to my dealer on tuesday, hoping he could have an idea about this, despite his lack of experience ...
I'll keep you informed about this, thanks guys for your valuable advices.
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
Now, the problem is permanent : crawling at 30 kph and battery telltale, 128 volts ! I'll bring it to the dealer tomorrow morning ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
I'm conviced now that I've a poor connection somewhere on a power cable : the voltage is good with no load, but is getting too low as soon as I ask power. The question is : is it safe for the battery (and to me) to try to go to the dealer (15 kms) with such a failure like this ?
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
might be a dodgy cell sagging badly under load
15km should be fine,
just charge it before you go, and keep an eye on it, as you will have to terminate charge manually.
just wait for the voltage to get above 144-145v and shut it down.
also take a route where it won't matter as much if you find yourself topping out at 40kmh.
the dodgy connection will probably corrode everytime you use the bike like this, but it needs replacing anyway.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
It may be a faulty Motor Controller.
I was worrying about sparks on the dodgy connection that could damage electronic parts or even put fire !
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
Do you think a poor connection around the MC could do this ? I'm convinced about something not tighten somewhere because I shook hardly (by hand) the bike on sunday night to make the failure more significant, and that is exactly what it did !
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
It could be, that something is not tightened enough or is loose.
There are only 206 possible candidates, should be easy for them....NOT!
The Inter-cell-connectors (ICCs) are not the likely cause, that rules out the majority of them.
But the inter-module-connectors (IMCs) can also be a big hassle, because most of them are inaccessible without dismantling of the battery.
The trick is to tighten them to 10Nm, wait, re-tighten to 10Nm, re-tighten again, etc until they are firm. That takes too long for a typical repair shop, because the battery needs to be rebuilt in three layers and you cannot do the next layer before the first layer is ready to be left alone.
It might be possible to cut out parts of the battery plastic container to gain access to the IMC bolts. That could possibly allow assembly of the whole battery, then re-tightening of the IMC. It would save a lot of time! The holes could be taped over to preserve the cooling airflow pattern. But it's going to be tricky using a torque-wrench that way - you need a calibrated wrist!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Wow ! The engineer who designed this came from Tesla ! I always forgot that there is a HUNDRED AND TWO cells ! Fortunately, I did a good charge on monday night (I couldn't do my commuting on monday morning : 30 kph !), until the battery reach 144v (and 22 C°, so I think I didn't overcharged it), and I rode it during 60 kms with no problem. It did and EQ charge during the night, and I didn't have any problem since then.
I don't like this kind of unsolved transient problem : I feel like having a Damocles sword above my head ...
By the way, my randomly stopping charging is a charger issue, as said Vectrix PL, by reading my memory dumps. They are going the send a new charger. My dealer said that my "momentary lapse of power" problem could be linked with this one ... I don't believe him at all but, anyway, let's solve one problem after another, and we will see.
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
By the way (2nd ...), there is no way to correct the title of this thread ? I ment, of course : "A momentary lapsE of power" (my damned poor english !) ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
much better than my non existent french :)
I've gone a little further (I hope ...) in my understanding of my momentary lapse of power problem : it did happen again yesterday (the bike became weak, and the battery telltale lit on with 12 bars on !), and I did 30 kms more with the battery telltale on (the power came back a few minutes later) ! Of course, I rode until I reached 120 volts to sync the gauge with the real battery level.
The interesting point is that I'm used now to check my battery temperature sensors from time to time, and I noticed that the sensor number 2 4D is always 8 C° above all the other sensors. For example, when I've finished my commuting (highway or inner city, the battery temperature is more a matter of ambiant temperature than a matter of trip type) with an ambiant temperature of 25 C° (summer is here !), all the battery temperature sensors are between 28 C° and 30 C°, except the 2 4D wich is at 38 C°. So, the dodgy cell could be a good hypothesis, but that means that the solution is a battery replacement ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
X Vectrix, this explanation is of greatest interest ! You are a living encyclopedia, my friend, I've got to spent more time to read all of your posts ! I understand now that the battery telltale is not only a matter of voltage, but is much smarter than that. So, my transient lack of power does not necessarily mean that the battery voltage goes deeply down, but at least under the output power measure threshold (that I estimate around 130 volts). I understand now why sometimes I've got the lack of power but no battery telltale. This makes the hypothesis of a dodgy cell (or a dodgy battery connection) less plausible (because that would mean a low battery voltage and a systematic battery telltale), but that could mean a dodgy connection somewhere between the battery and the motor (MC, cables, etc.). I'm wondering if this could be a side effect of my faulty charger problem, finally ?
As usual, the more I understand the problem, the more I have solutions to explain it, but the less I have certainties !
Could some former Vectrix engineer (X Vectrix, Winged_racer, etc.), or someone smarter than me (that's easy to find ...), be kind enough to give his opinion about this ? Thank you VERY much by advance !
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
The voltage you measure from the Vectrix is the voltage at no load.
this is *very* different to the voltage at load.
basically IIRC, if the controller is operating in low voltage limit (108V?) and the current is below ~70A (less than 7kw power available) for a period of time the red battery tell tale will light.
for a pack with all good connections, and of reasonable temperature, (above 10 deg C?) beign only able to pull 70A before voltage falls below 108v means the pack is depleted.
if a cell is reversed it could create a big enough voltage drop to show this condition while the pack still gives a no load voltage of 130v.
if a connection is poor or intermittent, the current required to cause the pack voltage to sag to 108v could be less than 70A (so <7kw power available), while the connection is of high resistance.
if the connection "comes good" (reduces resistance) the current required to cause sag to 108v could increase to 150A (so power available is now 15kw+).
a connection in both "good" and "bad" states will have the same no load voltage (130v in your case)
the red light stays as it latches when the 108v at less than 70A for x seconds condition is met.
if you have gained access to the battery, I would suggest putting a voltmeter on the pack.
alternatively, you could disconnect the charger from the CAN bus, so the bars represent actual voltage.
That part works in theory, however, I have yet to pull my own charger from the CAN bus.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
I had a similar problem shortly after I got my Vectrix. For a couple weeks I would have periodic power reductions for 30 seconds to a minute at a time, and then full power would return. This would happen several times during a ride. I couldn't correlate it to anything (low battery, ambient temp, wetness, etc). It sounds very similar to what you are experiencing.
After about 3 weeks of this, I was going uphill with a passenger and the bike just totally died. It shut down, started to do a reboot sequence, and then died in the middle of that (while I was riding down the road).
I thought it was perhaps a blown fuse, but once I got it opened up and started testing, I determined the fuse was fine. I just happened to notice some blackening at the vent on one of the cells on the top of the battery. Testing with the voltmeter determined that the cell was completely shot. Ultimately, I just shunted the cell across the terminals with a piece of copper, hooked everything back up, and the bike has worked great ever since. No more periods of reduced power.
Yes, this is the old well known phenomena that we all met on a chilly morning : when we switch on the car all lights on, and suddenly all lights off when we try to start the engine, because of a loose or dirty connection on the 12V battery ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
Thank you VERY much for this VERY interesting return of experience. It is so interesting that I've printed your message to show it to my dealer ...
My hope now, is that the dodgy cell (if this hypothesis is appropriate) will die before the end of my two years warranty. I noticed that yours died on a heavy load : I'll try to tow my Hummer (I mean my Prius, of course ...) on a slope to accentuate the phenomenon !
BTW, I'm still checking very often my battery temperatures, and the point is that the module 2 4D does not heat more anymore than the rest of the modules since the last EQ charge. Maybe it was just an out of balance cell ...
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
My charger has been replaced last week, but I still have transient lack of power and randomly stopping charges problems. So, obviously, it is not a charger issue. I'm just back from my dealer who did another memory dump to send to Vectrix PL. He thinks now that it could be an Interface Control Module issue, hoping for an authorization from Vectrix PL to replace it. He's skeptical about the cell (or cable) dodgy connection hypothesis because he thinks my scoot should be much more disturbed in this case. He thinks it's more a matter of electronic circuit malfunction, and the ICM is the only electronic item involved in both charging and motor driving processes.
Any opinion ?
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
I've got the feedback from Vectrix PL about my last memory dump : it is a known software issue. There is some kind of incompatibility between the last charger release and the current software release. Some people around the world suffer from the same problem (Clagros maybe : http://visforvoltage.org/forum/9310-strange-charging-behavior ?). Vecrix PL is writing a new software release to solve this issue, hoping to deliver it to dealers in a week or so. The only cure, for now, is to unplug the scoot when you've got the "CP 000" or "CC 000" symptom, wait 15 seconds (you can hear the cut-off of a relay), and to plug it again to resume the charging process, until you've got the "EC 000", meaning that the charging process is completed.
I think that maybe my transient lack of power could be due to out of balance cells, because I didn't take the time to resume charging process when it stopped on "CC 000", avoiding the balancing cells stage. I don't have lack of power anymore since I do it (and I don't have unbalanced cells temperature anymore too).
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
The out of balance cell hypothesis, as suggested by Vectrix PL, is not valid : I did completed charging processes a few times, but I still had lack of power with battery telltale two times today. More of that, the out of balance cell hypothesis can't explain why the lack of power can last only a few seconds, or just be a hickup or two when I accelerate full throttle (and it can also last 10 or 15 minutes, long enough, when I'm on the highway and need full power, to trigger the battery telltale as it happened two times today).
To resume all this mess :
* What I know :
- the randomly stopping charging process has nothing to do with the charger by itself. It happened one more time since the charger has been replaced.
- the lack of power has obviously nothing to do with the charger too, for the same reason.
* What I don't know :
- Is there a link between the two problems ? The lack of power seems to happen more often than charging problem.
- What I've been said by Vectrix :
- The charging problem is due to incompatibility between the charger and my actual firmware release. That seems plausible. I'm waiting for a new firmware release to solve this.
- The lack of power is due to an out of balance cell, as a result of the charging problem. It does not seem plausible at all to me.
* What I think :
- The charger problem will be solved by the new software release, but not the temporary lack of power.
- 3 hypothesis for the temporary lack of power :
- the failing ICM (it's my dealer's idea) wich is plausible to me,
- a dodgy connection somewhere (less plausible : why do I still have always some power ? It should be totaly dead sometimes ...)
- a chemically dodgy cell (I do have, from time to time, one cell temperature sensor - always the same - that can be as high as 10 °C more than the rest of it.). Seems plausible too to me, but that implies to change the battery pack to fix this !
Make your bets !
April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)
Interesting!
Another successful case of cell shunting... Is the bike still working fine?
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