XB-600 help...

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sixpax2k9
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XB-600 help...

OK, need a little help here. I am pretty sure my controller is messed up beyond repair but I want some 2nd opinions.

After coming out of a gas station I started riding and after about 20 feet I lost all power. The main blade fuse had blown, but also melted part of the fuse holder. I did have a problem with the phase wires to the motor melting together about 6 months ago that caused a similar problem. I since then replaced the fuse holder and used a 25A fuse. This time however the motor wires were fine....

Long story short... I checked the batteries individually and all checked out fine. I connected ONLY the red and black wires from the battery pack and when I tried putting in a new fuse it desintigrated before I even had it in. With no other connections OUT of the controller am I wrong in thinking it HAS to be the controller? I opened it up but I could not find anything that looked or tested bad. I did have the shunt mod and 60V upgrades done to the bike and I am now driving it in TN which has a LOT more steep hills etc. than Florida. Unless someone can come up with something else that could be wrong I was thinking now would be a great time to by an E-crazyman 72V 40A controller to replace the stock one. I would like to keep it at 60V but I guess with the terrain and not knowing if you can run that controller at 60V upping it to 72V might be a good idea. I mean as it was, on some hills with stop signs it took forever to even get up to 15mph!!!! I would also like to keep the speed limiter engaged but with a new controller I may need to find a new way to do that.

Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated!!!

Also, any info on the price and availability and where to order the E-crazyman controller would help too!!!

David

hguido1
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Re: XB-600 help...

Sixpax, I got my 72v controller off ebay. Still working at 72v and 6 batteries with stock motor. I also have a speed controller wired up with a switch. Full speed or half speed depending on which way I throw the switch. Good luck.

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

hey Hguido1 ........

Do you happen to have a copy of what wires on the new controller went to the wires on the bike?
Just got a new 72V controller off of e-bay

and it is a bit different than the others I have seen. the motor and hall i can figure out, the throttle (3pin) should be correct. I am not sure about a few others tho... on the old controller, there is a blue/orange to red/black... and also there is the connection that goes through the 10A bus fuse with a red and black.... I am almost positive that one is the ignition and one is the supply to the dc/dc converter. From what I can tell the one going thru the 10A fuse should be the dc/dc and the blue/orange should be the ignition....

I am waiting on the wiring diagram from the ebay seller for my controller. power connections have 3 wires.. a large red and black (main pack power) and a thin red wire (some sort of turn on lead), guess I can try running that wire through the ignition wires or to a switch.

I will be back out in the garage, hopefully I either get it figured out or when I come back in someone here will have helped me out :)

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: XB-600 help...

sixpax2k9

Here is the link to the wiring of my controller.

http://98.131.176.65/endless-sphere/Infineon_Wiring.jpg

Here is a link to a thread at endless-sphere.com

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8610&hilit=dummies+thread

This should help.

The little red wire turns the controller on and needs to be put on a switch from the battery. be careful not to give it to low of a voltage source since
it controls the low voltage cutoff circuit of the controller.

I hope this will help. One final thing I had the switch the two of the three phase wires to make this controller work with the stock hub motor. good luck

hguido1
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Re: XB-600 help...

This should help with the bike wiring.

http://visforvoltage.org/files/u2254/xb600wiring_section.jpg

Good luck. Let me know how it goes.

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

Well, the endless-sphere link doesnt work.

HOWEVER...... I took the bike apart and figured out the whole front end pertaining to the dc/dc and ignition. As far as the motor and hall sensors go, I was able to use the same connector for the hall sensors... the motor I ended up swapping the yellow and green wires and using blue-blue.

The only reason you need a switch for the controller is because the turn on wire needs the full 72V from the pack and the dc/dc is wired to either 48V or 60V from the pack. If I/WE got a 72v to 12V converter it could be hooked up straight from the ignition.

FYI, the blue/orange connector from the stock controller that goes to the red/black wires is the controller turn on lead. I have it written down which is which... I believe the orange is the tap from the battery pack and the blue turns on the controller... If anyone wants to know for sure I can check and post for sure....

So like you, I have the controller on a switch, the dc converter wired to 60V from the pack, everything works fine.. EXCEPT.... I have not found out what wire on the bike goes to the controller for the E-brakes. The one from the micro switches in the brake levers that cuts off the motor to help the bike stop.

Unfortunately, during the process of trying to figure out what wire it was, I ended up frying a wire and micro switch from the right handlebar. I am sure the wire is fried from front to back, a LOT of smoke.. :( No big deal as you use the left brake (rear tire) for most of the stopping. Even the brake light wont go brighter when I use the right lever.

Does anyone remember reading that you can use a dell power brick for a laptop as a dc converter? You can pick one of those up for $12 on ebay. If so I will get one and use as my converter and have controller turn on through the ignition as it should be.

Also, after modding the bike extensively, I do not need to use any storage on the bike for batteries. I have also used Anderson Powerpoles for the parallel/series switching for charging.

Again.... if anyone wants more info on some of these mods just ask... I will probably take a bunch of pics before I put the bike back together.

The controller I got on e-bay was only $51 shipped to me from China and it got here in 1 week!!!!

Now if I can only figure out the damn e-brake wire on the bike!!!! I am pretty sure it is the lonely yellow single plug on my controller.... The extra 5 pin connector on the controller I am pretty sure is for an alarm.

David

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

Ohhhh, and perhaps that circled section on that pick is for the e-brakes... just dont try to hook it up to any corresponding wires on the controller :) That is what I did and it fried my brake switch and wire.

Unless I am seeing it wrong... Black to yellow wire combo is for the e-brakes... it is the ONLY wire that goes to BOTH of the brake switches... The other combos go to one or the other, but not both....

The Blue and the brown ARE common, but through the diodes, I am a little rusty on diode schematics but if I am correct, in this diagram they prevent a back flow from the left to the right and visa versa.

I dont see a need for connecting anything from the controller TO each of the brakes as that already works in the front of the bike for the rear brake lights. All I should need is the output from the brake levers to the controller to tell it to brake... correct????

I hope that is the case or someone tells me wrong as I will most likely use that wire to my e-brake wire on my controller tomorrow.

David

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: XB-600 help...

sixpax2k9,

Glad to see you are getting it working. The yellow ebake wire connects to the brake light itself. When the light goes on it cuts the controller off. I did not use it though. I used the other two brake wires and wired it to one of levers that controls the rear brake. I seem to recall that the black wire went to the yellow wire on the bike for ground and the yellow wire went to either the blue or brown wire on the bike. please look at the wiring pic I sent to confirm that. I had to switch two of the three phase wires as well and I couldnt remember which colors they were but I think you figured it out.

Not sure why the endless link isn't working for you since I can pull it up out of the thread I sent.

One final thing. You can wire the little red wire to a relay that is connected to the 60v ignition power. The blue wire should have this 60v volts since it connects after the key and sends it voltage to the dc/dc converter. The relay will then send the 72v pack voltage to the controller to turn on. That is what I did and I still use my ignition key to turn controller on and the stock dc/dc converter. I believe this is the relay I bought to accomplish this.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049721

I know it is a 125ac relay but it carries the 60v dc accoss its poles just fine.

Let me know if I can help further. Good luck

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

OK, I found a small problem....

The wiring on the bike seems to be reverse of what I need... When the brakes are NOT applied there is a constant 12V thru the wires. None of the wires from the front of the bike go from 0 to 12V when the brakes are applied. The controller, however, shuts off when it sees 12V and runs when it sees 0V. I guess the wiring is not standardized at all on these bikes. So I am guessing using a SPDT relay would be the way to go to reverse the output for the controller. When energized the relay would use the input from pin 1 (i would leave this pin empty), when non-energized (the brake is applied and 0V is on the wire) it would take the input from a 12V source I would tap off of somewhere. It sounds very doable does it not?

And I will be using a relay for the ignition as well... on my way to Radio Shack to get the relays....

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: XB-600 help...

I am trying to follow what you said. The ebrake yellow wire from the controller should work the way you stated with it stopping the controller when it sees 12v. The other two wires (yellow and black in the harness for brakes from the controller should be able to be hooked up with out a relay. The system is closed until you push the brake lever then the micro switch opens and no voltage is put out.

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

It could be because I fried the blue wire and right brake micro switch. Regardless, there is no wire (NOW) from the front of the bike that has 0V normally and 12V when the brake levers are applied. No problem tho, I hooked up the relay as stated and that part works just fine.

Perhaps I got a bad relay or something... the 125VAC relay I got from the Shaq will not trip the coil with anything less than 64V, thus it will (and DID) cut out around the half way point of the packs charge. I will just get it replaced and hopefully it works properly then. Weird thing.... on the spec sheet for the relay it says 240VAC/125VDC coil, but the package said 125VAC 10A only.... could be some mix up in packaging.....

Two things you could help me with though.....

#1 - It runs great now... a LOT more pickup going up hills and accelerating etc. however, my top speed is now less than what it was at 60V... It DOES seem to studder at max throttle. I am guessing the hall wires probably need to be changed around???

#2 - could you please explain to me what you used and how you hooked it up for the speed limiter? The stock potentiometer does not seem to work with the new controller, I guess do to a different sensing in the controller.

Any info you have on the hall sensors and speed limiter would be greatly appreciated!!!

PS. I am glad I decided to install a failsafe switch under the seat, just in case the relay stopped working or I would have been pushing the dang thing home today :)

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

I am trying to follow what you said. The ebrake yellow wire from the controller should work the way you stated with it stopping the controller when it sees 12v. The other two wires (yellow and black in the harness for brakes from the controller should be able to be hooked up with out a relay. The system is closed until you push the brake lever then the micro switch opens and no voltage is put out.

I am not sure that the new controller has an OUTput for the brakes, just 1 wire for e-braking that brakes when it sees +12V. Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but the bike for SURE does not brake as well as it used to. Perhaps the right brake (front tire) makes the rear tire brake even harder with a higher voltage or something? I guess if I want it all to work properly I need to get a new brake assy or replace the microswitch and rewire it (the old blue wire from the lever is totally fried).

Basically, the 3 pin connector for the brakes is not hooked up to anything on the controller. I just tapped into the wires that run to the rear brake light and used the relay to get it working properly.

This is not and Infineon controller, it is a $32 Chinese 72V controller, probably a rather basic one at that. I guess for $50 shipped you can't expect too much can you....

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

Hi Dave,

Read thru your posts, same thing kind of happened to me this morning on my way to work. The phase wires (green, blue and yellow) melted together, battery indicator dropped to zero and it seems like the motor brake was engaged or something - it was a very difficult push back home. The blade fuse blew too.

I just separated the wires and then tried reconnecting the batteries but when i did, even without turning it on, something shorts again and the new blade fuse broken again...

Long story short, I was wondering when your wired melted, was your motor brake also on making it very difficult to move? Or does that point to problems with the motor? I'm also looking at ebay for the 72V controllers, about 50 shipped (like this one http://cgi.ebay.com/72V-1500W-Brushless-Speed-Controller-Electric-Bikes-/170496828604?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessor...), but you seem to be having various problems with it?

Thanks,
Bill

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

Yes that is pretty much the same controller I got off of ebay, but NO, I do not believe it is any problem of the controller in my case. If anything it is probably a hall sensor problem in my motor. I say this because there should be only 1 way to properly wire the controller to the motor to get it so operate in the forward direction properly. But I seem to have 2... one has very good torque but not top end speed... the other seems to spin VERY fast under no load, but has absolutely NO torque to even start out on. The controller u stated is just a basic 72V ebike controller with absolutely no perks... I feel it does the job just fine. Then again, there is NO standard for ebike wiring etc. so the chances of a generic controller matching up with the bike perfectly is slim to none. I am looking into and looking for advice to see if putting in a switch to change the hall sensors and phase wiring with it is something I can do. If so I can put in a switch for a "2nd" gear when I am up to speed. Even if I can not, I am just fine with the way the bike works as is. It goes about the same speed as before, but the torque is SOOOOOO much better!!!! I can actually accelerate up a hill now!!!! And seeing as how I want to keep my ebike legal, the extra speed is almost a godsend so I dont or cant go too fast :)

On another note.... if the bike is still hard to push with the controller OFF and NO power to the controller or anything else... then you may have messed up the motor badly. My advice to you is the remove the battery pack completely, turn the ignition switch ON (to remove any charge stored in the capacitors) and try to spin the rear wheel. If it will not spin freely, try removing the actual brake cable and try again. If it still will not spin freely there is something messed up in the hub motor and you will need to take it apart and find and fix it or get a new motor. If the PHASE wires shorted with a load on them there is a good chance the motor windings are busted up. I think that is what happened to mine a "little". I think my motor also got messed up in addition to my controller, but not to the point it wont work.

If you need any further help or advice dont hesitate to ask..... I am fine with how my bike runs with the new controller, I dont need the extra speed and the opposite voltage in the brake lines is probably due to me frying my brake wires. DO NOT try to connect anything to the 6 pin (5 used) extra connector... it is for some kind of alarm system and will fry something if connected wrong. Use a multi-meter to find the correct brake wire to use for the e-brake to the controller.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
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Re: XB-600 help...

Sixpax2k9

I have a link for you for the 36 different phase wire combos to try.

98.131.176.65/endless-sphere/Phase-Hall-Wire-Combinations.xls

For the speed limiter I assume you are taking about the pot in the front of the bike? If so I wired a new pot into the hall effect throttle circuit with a push button under the dash to activate it. I did not remove the originl stock pot though. It limits the amount of current sent to the controller when activated no matter how much throttle I give it. I used a 10k pot from radio shack and had to try a few time to get it adjusted right but it wont let me go over 18mph when activated.

If you are talking about the speedo on the bike mine wont work with this controller so I use a wireless bike speedo for accurate speed I am going.

Mine is an e-crazyman controller from ebay which is the same as an Infineon controller I believe.

Try reading this forum to. It should help.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484

Good luck

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

Thanks so much for your advice Dave, I'll check the motor and get the controller... I guess if the motor is messed up, might as well get a 1000w one :)

update: whoa! the 22mm nuts are sooo tight, and my wrench doesn't grab on well to the nuts to turn them... how did everyone remove them?

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

I used a combination of box wrenches, crescent wrenches and slip joint wrenches.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

I opened up the controller but everything seems fine... with the controller disconnected, the rear wheel spins freely; once i have any two of the phase wires connected, the rear, motor brake engages... does this point to a problem with the controller, or motor, or both? Still need to get 22mm wrenches to take out the rear wheel...

Thanks!

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

If it only sticks when connected to the controller, I would say it HAS to be something shorted out in the controller. Even though you can visibly see anything wrong with it does not mean its ok. Mine looked fine but did not work.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

Thanks so much Dave. I've ordered the 72V controller several days ago, will certainly need your help once it gets here - don't want to burn any more stuff. I hope it's the same controller, you said yours shipped from China whereas mine shipped from Singapore...

Thanks,
Bill

sixpax2k9
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Re: XB-600 help...

No prob! Just need a pic of controller and connectors and I should be able to help you out!

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

Finally got the controller @@... Pic attached!

This is what I could figure out from your (and hguido1's) posts, starting from 9 o'clock and going in counter clockwise:

1. isolated yellow
2. isolated yellow
3. gray, yellow, blue, red, black in red connector
4. orange extended from another orange, each with connectors
5. white
6. bare orange wire
7. thick red, thick black, thin red in white connector => thin red maps to key switch, others map to main power
8. thick blue 8-10 should corresp to the phase wires, but not sure how to connect
9. thick green
10. thick yellow
11. yellow, blue, green, black, and red (not clear in the pic) in white connector => hall effect throttle, seems to match wire to wire with a similar connector on original controller
12. red, green, black in white connector => motor hall sensors, seems to match wire to wire w a similar connector on original controller

(i'm staying at 60V so i'm not wiring a relay)

what's left are:
- 1 motor speed sensor wire
- 2 ebrake wires
- 1 brake light wire

Thanks!
Bill

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

Oops... looks like this is different from everyone else's? I just got back from the East coast and will spend some time over the weekend to figure this out, after which I'll post what I found :)

William Lim
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Re: XB-600 help...

brushless 72vl c2.jpg

stolen from an ebay seller...

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