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The specifications might be the same but the actual output can be different.
And an individual charger in the set can fail and remain unnoticed.
In the bank charging setups typically suggested on V the same battery gets connected to the same charger all the time, so it potentially gets a different charge during each "bank charging" session.
Unless all the chargers are actually performing the same - and none of them fail unnoticed later on - there will be a high likelihood of an individual battery progressively getting damaged.
For example:
If one in 20 chargers out of a production series has a significantly different charging profile, then the likelihood of not having a dodgy one in a six battery bank charging setup is:
19/20 x 19/20 x 19/20 x 19/20 x 19/20 x 19/20 = 47045881/64000000 = 0.734
In other words: 26.5% of 6-battery bank charging setups will be faulty as described if 1 in 20 chargers is faulty.
So for 6 batteries your chances of it working out well are: 100-26.5 = 73.5%
For an 8 battery bank your chances would be only 66% to get away with it.
For a 10 battery pack: 59.9%
For a 14 battery pack: 48.8%.
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To avoid this problem you need to frequently monitor charger and battery status and somehow rotate the chargers between the batteries so that the unavoidable small difference between chargers get "spread out" between the batteries.
Mr. Mik
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
There is no reason to rotate the chargers. The goal with bank charging is to charge each cell within a battery to 100% SOC, and avoid damage due to overcharging. In other words, battery balance is not the goal of bank charging!
To ensure that all of the cells are charged to 100% in a reasonable time requires overcharging them in a controlled manner. Charging at 14.4 to 15v and waiting until the current tapers to .01CA will ensure that all of the cells are overcharged, but in a controlled manner that will not harm them. The Vector chargers I got will actually overcharge the batteries, and all but one are within the CV spec voltage (click here)! They all charge to over 14.4v, and the end of charge current is close to .01CA. But, this is what the manufacturer specifies. If you overcharge them all, then you are guaranteed to charge them all to 100% SOC. And if they are all 100%, than technically they are equalized, but as you can see, it's really fully charging the cells that is the goal.
If you float the battereis to maintain them, than in that case you don't want to overcharge them at all because this is bad long term, and this is why float voltage is specified lower at 13.5-13.8v per battery.
What I don't like about using multiple chargers is not the marginal variation between them, but the chance of failure due to system complexity. If each has a 2% chance of failure within one month, than the chance of any one of them failing is 12% for a month, or 96% chance of any one of them failing in 8 months.
Also there's the bulk, and expense. This is why I'm wiring my bike up in parallel to charge. But I don't recommend doing this if you are a newb to EVs.
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri
New style Zapino on the road now.
Yesterday I took it out for another battery break in ride. (have done several so far).
The High Speed setting of the High/Low switch allowed over 40mph. The Low speed setting restricted speed to around 25mph. This is great as a cruise control for better range at lower amps.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
sgmdudley - I'm glad to see that the high setting allowed over 40mph. I received my new Zapino a few days ago and found the switch in the panel behind the flooboard. It was already set to the high setting. I wonder why the switch was moved from the handle bars to a location behind a screwed in panel? This is hardly convenient for changing the setting. I read in another post that you mounted the switch to another location where it is easier to switch. Can you tell me where you put the switch and how you did it? I would like to do that as well. I really wish there was a service manual available for the Zapino because I'm afraid if I begin taking off all of the panels I may not get it back together correctly. I would like to be able to monitor the battery voltages but how difficult is it to get to the individual batteries to do this?
Steve Tanner
I cut a rectangular hole in the inside of the storage box. It is on the left side as you sit on the scoot, near the CB. I should have gone a little more towards the front as the side panel pushed the switch in a little when reassembled, but not enough to cause a problem. When I want to switch I just raise the seat. I usually leave it in high now even though I cruise at 20mph. Low just adds 12k ohms of resistance to the throttle feedback voltage to the controller which restricts the voltage to around 2.9V DC. High gets up to 4.3V DC. If you don't need the switch, it can be unplugged from the two connectors and then plug the two connectors together to eliminate the switch. My Scoot is registered as a moped so if a cop stops me, I can switch it to low and let him ride it. He won't be able to go over 30mph. I tried to register as a motorcycle so I could get a license plate that read "NO GAS", but they said no, register as a moped. This is because the ZAP MCO says 2HP and their website says MAX SPeed is 30MPH. That is OK by me as MOPED is only $5.25 for three years. Such a deal.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
sgmdudley - The California vehicle code also has the 30 mph max speed criteria for registration as a moped. So maybe I should keep the switch and put it in a location where I can switch it like you did. Do you have any instructions that you could share with me on how to disassemble this beast to relocate the switch, and how to get to the batteries to install BattEQ?
Steve Tanner
Nothing written down. This is from memory.
1) Remove rear rack (4 x 14mm bolts).
2) Remove left and right fenders (3 screws each side)Unplug turn signals.
3) Remove rear plastic (2 12mm bolts and two screws) You may have to remove the fake gas cap to get to the wiring going to the brake light asm.
4) Remove seat (2 12mm nuts)
5) Remove the front piece of plastic. (4 screws?) this is tough one as the fit of the seat hinge can impact removal.
This will give you access to the switch and 4 of the 5 batteries.
6) If you need to get to the lowest battery, then you need to remove the two side pieces below the floorboard (4 screws each side)caution, at the rear of the side pieces, there is a tab that will break off if not careful. Bring the front out first, then angle the sidepiece to unlock the tab.
7) Next remove the 4 12mm bolts from the floorboard.
8) Remove the two screws from the access cover for the DC - DC convertor and unplug the converter.
9) Under the floor board from each side is a screw holding the plastic belly pan up to the floor board.
10) Now for the tough part. The floorboard is the hardest part to remove. At the rear, the DC-DC converter box is up against the metal battery box. At the front are three large interlocking tabs to lock to the front vertical plastic piece. You can raise the rear to get the converter box past the battery box, then it takes some doing to get the front tabs unlocked. You may get some slack by removing the 3 screws on each side of the vertical piece (they screw into the front plastic molding that is the front of the scooter).
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I hope this is all. There may be an extra screw here and there that I forgot. Just take your time. After the first go at it, you will be a pro.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
Thanks for the detailed steps, I appreciate it. Regarding the 5th hard to get to battery. Would I be able to get to the 5th battery to install BattEQ without doing steps 6 through 10? I'm wondering if the 5th battery is exposed enough after performing steps 1 through 5 to install BattEQ. Thanks again.
Steve Tanner
You cannot see the two terminals on the low front battery until you get part way thru step 10). After raising the rear of the floorboard, you may be able to squeeze in enough to reach them. The battery screws should have a philips cross slot so you can loosen/tighten with a big philips screwdriver.
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Here is one thing to consider. A one time disassembly and then add the wiring going to a terminal block up where you can reach it. Then make your connections there. This picture shows the bank charger wiring on my 1st Zapino. I moved it to the new one and use the terminal block to connect the Paktrkr. I will use the end of the bank charger connector for the BatEQ.
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The funny thing is, all the Zapinos come with a note to the dealer to check all the battery connections for loose screws. I don't think this is going to happen.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
During my ride this afternoon I opened it up all the way on a straight level stretch and the speedo maxed out at 30 mph. This is with the switch setting on high (II). I opened the panel and verified that the switch is set to high (II). So now I'm wondering what is going on. Also, I believe that the odometer is overstating the miles by about 20 percent. So if the speedo is also overstating by 20 percent the max speed was only about 24 mph. This result is more consistent with the speed switch set to low (I). If I remove the switch and ride the scooter at under 25 mph, should I get about the same amount of mile range as if the switch is installed? The switch doesn't do anything else other than limit the rider's "lead foot" right?
Steve Tanner
The LOW setting adds 12K ohms of resistance to the Throttle feedback voltage so you cannot get MAX speed. The voltage is only about 3V DC. In HIGH you get MAX voltage of 4.3V DC. There is actually 5V DC going to the throttle, but it is limited to 4.3 going to the controller. I was trying to find out how to get the full 5V DC to the controller to go faster, but I can go over 40MPH (according to GPS) so that is fast enough due to the reduced range.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
Can you tell me which switch setting is high? The switch installed on my scooter has 3 positions. The middle position is off and the other two positions are labeled "I" and "II". I assumed that "II" was high but I found out today that I could reach a higher top speed with the switch set to "I". This seems strange that position "I" is high. The scooter was delivered with the switch set to "II".
The 2008 Zapino manual doesn't even mention the limiter switch because the switch is hidden behind the lower panel. The 2007 Zapino seems to have a two position handlebar switch labeled "0" and "I" that is shown in the manual. Thanks.
Steve Tanner
Yes, middle is off, can't tell you for sure about the I & II. I have been leaving mine on the position that gets MAX voltage of 4.3V DC. I am rethinking removing the switch completely and just plugging the two remaining connectors together to eliminate another point of failure. The handle bar switch does the identical restriction.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
The next time you take a look at the switch please let me know if the 4.3v setting is "I" or "II".
Steve Tanner
Where did you install the PakTrakr display on your Zapino? I'm tyring to find a better place to mount the display than in the underseat storage compartment. It would be nice to see the display while riding.
Steve Tanner
I drilled two holes and filed them together, then used velcro to mount the display. I have improved this installation so you don't see the white velcro. I should have used black but didn't have any at the time. Now that I can't see the white, it doesn't matter. By the way, the windshield is from Heeters.com. Works great.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
That's a great location. I couldn't find any information about whether the PakTrakr is waterproof so I wasn't sure I could mount it an an area that could be exposed to water.
Steve Tanner
Actually, the display is not supposed to be waterproof. When I ordered it I asked for the special coating they apply to the circuit board. And I don't plan on riding in the rain. I have a Honda GL1500 trike that I can ride in the rain.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
I am trying to tie down some information about the Zapino my friend just bought. It is used with about 700 miles.
1. Having read some of the posts on here, I thought the Zapinos were all 3000w. When I read the manual, it says 2500w. Is there a time period where they were 2500w? I saw something that noted older models might be 2500w 48v rather than 3000w 60v.
2. The LED battery charge indicator doesn't illuminate. Is this a common problem? Is it an easy fix?
3. The manual doesn't include the guide to the diagnostic lights. I saw a few different manuals on here, with different info. I'm not sure which diagnostic guide goes with this model.
4. Some photos on here show a 3 prong plug in under the seat for the battery charger (like a power supply on the back of a computer). Hers has a round 4-pin configuration that goes from the bike to the charger, and a standard polarized plug . The charger has a fan that runs continuously when plugged in. Is this stock on an older model, or has something been changed out?
This model has a manufactured date of 7/27/2007 and is described as model year 2007. It sounds like their were some changes to models in late 2007 based on what I read on here with changes such as (cosmetic indicators--"zapino" and "electric" logos changes from decals to metal plates; battery indicator changed from LEDs to analog dial; ABS breaks added; regenerative braking added. This model also has high and low power switch, which I think I read was removed from later models.
I thought some of these changes occurred from one 3000w model to another, but sounds like they might have been between 2500w and 3000w model.
Any help on identifying this model, specs, and any other info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
My 1st Zapino was made 09/26/2007. It had the ERIDER 3000w motor. Zapino on the sides and ZAP on the front. Charger port was a standard 3 pin that looks like a reverse power plug. Two speed switch next to the throttle. 60V from 5 Green Saver SP27-12 batteries. Mountain Chen was the manufacturer.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
An important thing to check is the battery manufacturer.
I have a Zap (described in another post in this forum) that died after 1159km.
The batteries looked like the good "Greensavers" until I removed one today to replace it.
It was an Electier, which apparently has been known to have problems.
My scooter is a 2007 model...built before August 2007 and similar to the one described by sgmdudley.
Yes,Electier is old version Greensaver battery,which have some quality problem on plate...sorry for that !
2nd generation Greensaver is much better.
Any idea what setting you should use to get the MAX throttle voltage. I currently opened mine up (by default it was set to the middle "OFF" position), so I tried setting it to "I", and that seemed to give me less acceleration than setting it to "OFF" or to "II".
Although on "II" the acceleration seems better but the max speed my speedometer reads is 30mph, so I think it's still speed/voltage capped. Do I need to completely remove this switch to allow the bike to go 35 to 45 mph. The traffic I travel in daily is usually 35mph speed limit so it'd be nice if I could comfortably keep up with it.
On my 2008 Zapino, the "I" setting allows speeds up to about 42 MPH. The "II" setting caps out at about 30 MPH on level ground. I don't think my switch has a middle position (off) but I will check it in the morning. I had the switch removed for a while but I put it back on because I found that the top speed was about the same as the "I" position. But, I found that I didn't get as much range even when I tried to take it easy on the throttle. When I need to get a lot of miles on a charge I put the switch on "II" to conserve power, and of course limit the speed (max 30 mph).
Steve Tanner
The switch has three positions. Center is off. Could be used to prevent someone from driving the scooter away.
The other two positions are not necessarily determined by the markings of I or II. I have seen them both ways.
One position is direct thru for highest speed. Max voltage to the controller is 4.3V.
The other position adds 12K resistance to limit voltage to the controller to 2.8V (+/-).
I removed the switch for awhile also, then put it back in. I have the switch mounted in the storage box
near the Main Circuit Breaker. This allows me easy access. For commuting to work @ 20MPH, I use the low
speed position. This allows me to keep voltage spikes down on take-off which can reduce range. For local
driving to store, church, etc, I use high speed position. I drive on some roads that do not have bike lanes
and need to go fast enough to keep the drivers of cars from getting mad at me.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
I have used LIberty's windshield mount windshield without any problems on my zapino (liberty's ES3000) . www.iloveebikes.com.
Hmm looking a my switch underneath the seat it looks as if it may not be hooked up at all seeing as I can set it to the "OFF" middle position and it runs just fine, and the "I" or "II" position seems to let me go a max speed of 30mph, so I'm wondering if something isn't hooked up properly that's capping it at 30mph. Is there anything I can check to verify that the switch is actually installed and connected, or if it's not connected what could cause the 30mph cap?
Traveling 30mph is fine except some streets speed limits are 35mph so to keep most motorists happy it'd be nice to be able to keep up with traffic.
The switch has matching connectors so it can be removed and the remaining connectors plugged together
eliminates the switch). There is only one way it can be plugged in.
Robert Dudley
E-Scoot Tech
Hi there,
I just joined the group this morning. I just purchased a Zapino and I am interested in making the changes that you discussed and I wanted to read Max's blog. Could you please point me to it? Many thanks
I am getting ready to take delivery of a 2008 Zapino that I purchased directly from the Zap people in California. I got what I believe is a fantastic price and they told me the unit was new. I hope the new part is correct and I would like to make
sure I check this thing out before I start riding it.
Do you still like your Zap?
Thanks
Marc
2008 ZAPINO ? 3 years in stock ? take care of its BB battery,only lithium battery could be stored 3 years without charging.
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