XM-3500

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electromotion
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Re: XM-3500

I received #20 of the 3500Li build and have been pretty happy with it so far. Things that I had to address were:
Adjust the rear brake caliper to center over the rotor as described in another thread
Chase the threads on the swing arm side cover mounts to mount the covers
Fix a cold solder joint on a wire splice on the main power lead from the battery to the circuit breaker.

Improvements I made:

I reworked the battery box to make removal of the batteries easier. Box was made very tight and screws on the sides of the batteries were digging into the sheet metal and scratching the paint off. Who ever designed the sheet metal forgot to allow for the screw heads on the sides of the batteries.

I added balance leads to the battery cells. I reconfigured the battery to have the + and – leads exit at the middle of the pack to shorten the cables. I moved the charge socket and circuit breaker to the lower locking door area, and routed my balance lead harness with connectors to this lower area. The battery was also reconfigured so I could charge the pack using two 10 amp 10s active balancing chargers that charge/balance each cell individually after 90% charge is reached. Charger also records cell internal resistance and chart charge cycles on the PC. Chargers are FMA CellPro 10s available in the Electric RC market. I have been doing the initial charge with the Thunder sky charger which usually cuts out at 70 volts and then running the CellPro 10s to balance the pack, the CellPro 10s cutout is 3.65V per cell. 3500Li performance is much better when you start with a fully balanced pack. Cell voltages after discharge are very similar and I also don’t think a discharge BMS is needed with a balanced pack.

The fuel gauge needs to be recalibrated as it off the scale when a 73 volt pack is plugged in.

I have not done a full speed run yet but getting up to 48 mph GPS is doable and I am another one of those big 6’3” 210 pounders.

Tomorrow an R Martin Lithium EVD gets delivered. It will be interesting to do a comparison.

I will have pictures and more data next week.

Gordon

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Hey Kids, I received my XM 3500 yesterday! I took it up one of our famous Seattle hills and it is absolutely fantastic. So now I have to send away for my registration materials which should come the middle of next week. So I decided to do some of the modifications that have been suggested from previous owners. I have already extended the battery storage box to make room for the next set batteries, be it 2,3,or 4 cells. So my big question right now is(it's extremely important my friends for you to know that I have very little knowledge or experience working with electricity. If you could all be so kind as to really really dumb down your advice please make it for the layman).
So my first question is do I hook up a wire to each battery terminal? How long should that wire be {3 feet}? what gauge is that wire? Should there be a release spot in the middle where I can take the wire harness completely out? If I split (male/female)that wire in half will that split affect any of the readings? What kind of end should I put on the wire that will eventually be going to the BMS? or the opposite end from the battery terminal. Can you guys think of anything else I need to know in order to prepare my xm 3500 to get ready for a BMS system as well as be able to check each battery cell for its voltage on a regular basis? Well that's it for now I'd really appreciate any help you can give me. My best to you and yours, Mikie

ps I owe a couple of emails but I was up to 1am last night making a big mess! I will get back to you all when I get back from Denver
next week. M

mikie

Henry42
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Re: XM-3500

I reworked the battery box to make removal of the batteries easier.

I'm curious as to what the modification was that you did. I recently removed a bad battery and sent it for warranty. It was so difficult to remove that my plan was to unstrap all the battery packs before reinserting them. I figured that if needed I could use some sort of wedges to secure the batteries from moving around too much.

electromotion
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Re: XM-3500

The modification I did to the battery box entailed using a scissors jack and two rectangular steel bars about 6" long on each side. I placed them in the box at the bottom torwards one end where the bends are and stretched the box just a hair larger and then moved the jack 6" forward and repeated the step until I reached the front. Then I had to do the same thing where the back metal cap that is welded on is. The top of the battery box is pretty flexible and is not creating the problem.

Gordon

rossasaurus
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Re: XM-3500

Way to go Gordon!
I had envisioned the same thing the other night, but god knows where my scissors jack is.
My piecemeal approach was to file the bottom corners of the aluminum pack "stiffeners", so they wouldn't hang on the box. It helped, but it was still a beastly job.

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Hey Guys-- I am headed to Denver to have my girlfriend meet my family!! I will be back mid next week and share my mod pictures so far, I have torn off the back end of the battery box to get the added 2 1/2 inches needed for the added batteries(2-4?) to get to 72V. I have taken a cardboard model to a sheetmetal fab shop and they will make me a new 2 piece back and top. I also mod the fender tabs as getting the battery pack out of the back(or anywhere)is a pain in the ass, What a GREAT idea using the scissor jacks, I only have 4 pair of them just 4 feet from where I was working....Pictures to follow but I am still wondering about how to make the wiring harness....to go to a circuit board for daily volt testing and eventual BMS wire? and connector size? etc

some correspondence from a guy who has single cells for $100/pc in LA. an ebay connection:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280271237139

Hello Mikie, I have a few single cells in-stock and order as needed. I usually get them in a few days.
The smallest BMS I have is for 40cells and they cost around $1500. They are not cheap. I would not bother to put a BMS on a scooter.

Sparky-- you can really bend us over on this thing, but it is the American way after all, if the is a way there is a profit....
nothing personal brother....see you on the other side of the DE-Bate! I got my Sara Palin Bingo Cards all ready and printed out!M

mikie

sparc5
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Re: XM-3500

Adam Smith postulated that we can get the best welfare for the people if everyone perused their own self interest. While I believe there is a lot to be said for that, it doesn't cover ethical judgments. Is it moral to charge your friends in need as much as you can? I personally say no, and I like all of you.

The case against that is if I sold it for no profit, or at little profit, I would but my competition out of business, and they have mouths to feed too. So I would make one group better off at the expense at another.

That's were economics ends, and ethical judgments come in. If I undercut my competition, they'll live less well off, or have to find new jobs. How much competition is desirable? We like our job security but it is at odds with technical innovation and competition. Competition is stressful, for winners and losers alike.

The GreenBMS is a little different though. The major competition, the BattEQ, has for too long charged monopoly prices. Should their prices been lower, it would have served as a barrier to my entry into the market.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Hey Sparky-- I am in business for myself too, so I know the economics of R&D---
all the waking up at night thinking and schemeing/problem solving. I Love it and
that is why I take so much satisfaction in what I create and the Love of what I do.That said I also Love going to the bank and depositing those checks that help
verify that what I do is appreciated and worthwhile to others. When it comes to
the field/study of electricity I am a novice and I am not willing to spend a huge amount of time learning it. I prefer to pay someone else what they are worth for all their long years
of learning and also for their sleep deprived nights. So thank you so much for what you know and what you are doing for us out there on the edge of this mode of transformational transportation. May the Green BMS serve you in ways to support you and your family to be healthy and happy. I am excited beyond these words to drive my scooter safely and ecologically for the benefit of us all. Mikie

mikie

jdh2550_1
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Re: XM-3500

some correspondence from a guy who has single cells for $100/pc in LA. an ebay connection:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280271237139

Hello Mikie, I have a few single cells in-stock and order as needed. I usually get them in a few days.
The smallest BMS I have is for 40cells and they cost around $1500. They are not cheap. I would not bother to put a BMS on a scooter.

Mikie - check out elite power instead: http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=16 - AFAIK they're the official importer for the TS cells and they're the cheapest to at $68 per cell.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

AndyH
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LiFePO4 Cell Break-In, Single Cell Chargers

It's been an interesting journey to this end of the thread! Thanks to all for the real-world view of this bike. The geek part of me still wants one to improve and drive. The entrepreneur part of me might not be interested in taking on x-treme products just yet...

I have ordered one of the $68 TS cells from Elitepowersolutions for charge/discharge testing. I've been testing and using 40138 cylindrical cells. Some of my test results are posted on an Endless Sphere thread, but the most complete info is in my blog, http://funwithlithium.blogspot.com I plan to do the same range of tests (a 15 or so discharge cycle routine to evaluate cell break-in, and then an exploration of power output at various loads) on the TS cell. The fun should start early this week as it should be a quick trip from Phoenix to San Antonio via UPS.

I've been using 2A single cell chargers from Voltphreaks - //s.p10.hostingprod.com/ [at] www.voltphreaks.com/ssl/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=60&osCsid=9921a59cd300a6f3f58dd87a8b862ccd" target="_blank">Single cell LiFePO4 charger (10 or more) . These are LiFePO4 chargers with proper charge curve and can be grouped for faster charging. I've replaced the barrel plug on the charger with alligator clips. Single cell chargers can be clipped to individual cells in a series string. The real beauty of this approach is that using single cell chargers automatically balances the pack - no additional hardware needed.

I've found that there is a cell break-in period for the 40138 cylindrical cells. These are the 10Ah cells made by PSI (Phoenix Silicon International) and sold by EV System, Inc, LiFeBATT, Yesa, FalconEV, and all the others. Here's a summary of the first discharge/charge cycles as reported by a CBAII analyzer. The 10A loads are 1C; the 20A is 2C and 25A 2.5C.

break_in.jpg

A pack with even one low cell with negatively impact speed and range - not unlike starting a trip with a low fuel tank in your car and one spark plug missing...

I've also found that call 'capacity' decreases with load. A cell that releases 10.4Ah with a 5Ah or 10Ah load might only release 8.5Ah at 100A.

Thanks again for the info on this scoot so far!

Andy

yount3000
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Re: XM-3500

Re you familiar with the Rad2Go 1500W scooters for the early 2000's. I have one from 2003? maybe. I actually purchased this from Egadgets.com on an Ebay auction. I am looking for a way to get the MCO for this scooter in order to license this here in Wisconsin. However, there is also no DOT sticker on the bike that I can find. Any help you can give me would be most welcome.

Tony.

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Unfortunately the bikes do not have a BMS. During factory testing it turned out that the BMS that was planned for was not reliable and, more importantly, during long term testing (9,000km so far) these cells appear stable without BMS. The warranty of 2 years still applies. Bear in mind that if the batteries function properly for 2 years (while under warranty) it is highly likely they will continue to function for 1,500 cycles as stated.
I apologize for the lack of BMS. Functionally, the bike still performs as advertised, 55mph indicated top speed and 45 mile range. For those that want to fit a BMS I will research available aftermarket BMS's suitable for a 20 cell LiFePO4 set up.
For folks who bought from me I will provide the BMS at a discounted price. But TS don't give any warranty if BMS put into use.
[/quote]

Yesterday I took my 3500Li out for a 30 mile spin probably averaging about 38mph. I took it to a local scooter repair shop to fix the brake light which had not worked since delivery, it turned out to be a bad connector about 15" from the rear lamp:cost $90 but no big deal, come on did I think extreme was going to fix that? or pay for it?

I began this journey with the stock 20 cell packs fully charged and here are the numbers!:

1 -- 4.42 11-- 4.41
2 -- 4.16 12 -- 4.34
3 -- 4.38 13 -- 3.47
4 -- 3.61 14 -- 3.68
5 -- 3.37 15 -- 3.31
6 -- 3.77 16 -- 4.35
7 -- 4.41 17 -- 3.47
8 -- 4.40 18 -- 4.24
9-- 4.37 19 -- 3.47
10 -- 4.33 20 -- 3.35= 79.31Volts fully charged

After the ride:

1 -- 3.27 11-- 3.28
2 -- 3.27 12 -- 3.28
3 -- 3.27 13 -- 3.26
4 -- 3.26 14 -- 3.27
5 -- 3.25 ****15 -- 0.17****
6 -- 3.27 16 -- 3.28
7 -- 3.27 17 -- 3.27
8 -- 3.28 18 -- 3.27
9-- 3.27 19 -- 3.27
10 -- 3.28 20 -- 3.23=62.27Volts after 30 mile ride at about 35-40mph

So I have some questions here for Mountain Chen via John

A) after a total of 55 miles of use{basically a brand new bike) I have a very failed cell(#15)and it will be replaced correct?
B) are not the 11 cells that range from 4.16 to 4.42volts on the dangerously high side? and did they not get that way because of the bad cell?
C) if I am to use this scooter without a BMS then aren't many of these cells at high risk because of the lack of a BMS over the 2 year warrenty period?
D)But you will warranty any battery that fails in that 2 year period? You, Mountain Chen, say you may provide a BMS system approved by you before the 2 year warranty period expires? Which you will sell to your present customers at a reduced rate?
E) When the batteries are over charged by the factory charger to the extent of 79.31Volts or even higher will your controller handle that much voltage without burning out? What is the maximum voltage that this controller can safely handle from your tests?
F)How about the DC/DC converter and that same very high of Voltage? What is the maximum voltage that this converter can safely handle from your tests?
G)MOST IMPORTANTLY if these batteries continue to decline and fail are you also warranting the controller and converter when they are exposed to these extremely high voltages?

Thank you very much for answering all of these questions and for helping to alleviate my fears by what I am sure has been you prolonged testing of the 35000Li.... Mikie

ps would someone tell me how to get the pictures to upload, I use the upload feature and then hit post but they do not come through....thanks guys....M

mikie

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Context: The first paragraph of my post was of a quote made by john where he was speaking for Mountain Chen dated 8/08/2008 from this 3500Li blog....M

mikie

eped
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Re: XM-3500

ps would someone tell me how to get the pictures to upload, I use the upload feature and then hit post but they do not come through....thanks guys....M

When you upload an image, it puts in your "picture library". Then, if you look to the right of the file you just uploaded, there is an ADD button. When you click the ADD button, it will paste that image into your reply/message (otherwise all you have is uploaded to your library; this is nice though as you can then add the same picture to other posts and not reload).

As far as BMS, I built one and fully feel the pack will leave a weak cell behind and eventually that cell will die (and others will be overcharged). And when I say weak, I don't mean bad but one that is just at the low-end of normal distribution. The overcharged ones (which are at the other end of this normal distribution) will shut the charger down too soon since it looks at the whole pack (and these cells will make the pack voltage climb fast at the end of charge since the voltage increases from 3.6V to 4.2V very fast for the cell). This shuts the charge off to the cells that need it more even sooner.

I had some cells consistently over charging and a couple slowly loosing charge with each run when I got the bike and stop riding until I had a BMS. I'm not saying all bikes are this way and if all the cells are close in nature they "should" be fine (I don't know enough or can find enough long term data on the LiFePo and I don't think the industry knows as well - one reason you do not see major auto/bike manufacturers releasing product with it yet).

I hear Johhny has his version of my BMS built and it is pulling his cells together nicely (I think he was seeing the same issue of cells starting to unbalance over time). There are also other BMS's available out in the industry so maybe check into one...mine requires some assembly (like all of it!) ;)

P.S. Looking at your cell voltages, you better watch cell 20 as it is remaining away from the rest and it may be next to fail (or at least give it a boost charge by itself to get it in line with the rest).

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Hey eped--thanks for that help I will try and send a few pictures tonight of the mod I did on the battery compartment so that I can get the batteries out of the back end easily. I will also include a picture of the BMS/20/24 cell port I made to check individual voltages and also as a port for the Green BMS to hook up to. I am a pretty handy guy but when it comes to electrical circuits and resistors etc my mind goes back to 4 grade so building one like you did is not an option. Once again the pictures are of removal of the back of the battery compartment, the fabrication of a rear cap extension, the cutting off of the rear horizontal cross bar to move it back 1" for the added ease of removal and extra 4 cells and then the BMS/voltage port. Question about charging a single battery up by itself, can I rig up 2 wires from the stock charger and just hook it up to my BMS/voltage port red positive black negative? I used 12 gauge wire at the port? What number do I charge it up to if we use the above stats? Mucho Mucho thanks man. I have some other things to share but I am a bit hesitant about losing my warranty status....M
3500LI_back_extension.jpg3500LI_back_extension_after_the_cut.jpg3500LI_back_extension_before_the_cut.jpg3500Li_wire_harness_and_BMS_hookup.jpgWelding_done_and_back_cover_on.jpg

mikie

eped
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Re: XM-3500

Hey Mikie - cool mod for the extra cells! I was wondering how you did it and that looks great.

As far as single cell charging, do NOT hook up the standard charger to just one cell. You will need say a 5V/2A power supply, and if you have one, then connect a 1ohm/5W resistor from it to the battery. Then watch the battery until it gets close the rest of the pack (first, do a normal charge on the whole pack). Let me know if you don't have a 5V supply handy (you can use a regular 12V car battery charger but then you will need a 10ohm/15W resistor).

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

Here are the last of my interesting? pictures. The first picture is of the foam that is jammed in the front, removing that foam gave me about 3" of xtra room and I needed to add about 2" for the back extension as the batteries are about 4 &5/8" wide. The rest of the pictures are of my BMS/voltage port and how I made it. I got the 4 white plastic ports at an good commercial electric warehouse.

Tomorrow I will get 4 5 ohm/15W resistors tomorrow in the mail, I will solder 2 of them in series for 2 pair and then hook each pair: first one to the negative and one to the positive clamp of my 12volt battery charger and then hook up those to each terminal of #20 battery, & I will watch it charge up and stop it when it reaches which value? thanks for all your help.

I have 24 cell capacity on my scooter but I only have 20 cells hooked up. I am waiting for a new 90volt controller these guys at the local scooter shop are ordering for me and will install it too. They said that not only will I be able to run somewhat higher voltages{72X 3.9volts=93.6volts) and they also said that my acceleration will go from the either off or ON to smooth as butter. With this funky single battery charger I can keep an eye on all the cells and if one gets out of line I can isolate it out and bring it back to the average pack voltage? Thanks again so much....Mikie

ps I got extra keys made because these Chinese ones are cheap like everything else, You can go t a good locksmith that has ilco key blanks use the Mitsubishi key blank: X121 DC3

3500_foam.jpg
BMS-voltage_port.jpgBMS-voltage_port_2.jpgBMS-voltage_port_3.jpg

mikie

eped
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Re: XM-3500

Charge #20 up to about 4V and then stop (make sure to keep an eye on it as it will start to climb fast once it gets past about 3.5V). Measure it after about 30minutes and it should be down to a decent level. Then run you charger and measure all your cells. Thanks,

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

Mikie
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Re: XM-3500

This is from the Green BMS thread and here is the link:

http://www.greenbms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=50

you are going to laugh your head off, Sparky you are my MAIN MAN, going where no man has ever gone before or thought to go.
Thanks so much for all you are doing brother!....Mikie

mikie

chas_stevenson
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Re: XM-3500

Because this thread is sooooo long this thread has been closed and no more post may be made. Please go to XM 3500 (continued) to continue this thread.

Thank You,
Chas S.

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