XM-3500

321 posts / 0 new
Last post
edmallinak
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 18:30
Points: 3
Re: XM-3500

Just wondered if anyone was thinking of starting a new topic for some/any/one of the subjects we've been discussing here. I'm enjoying all the info on the new bike, but at 150+ replies this is getting a little tough to sort through. It would be nicer to find the battery topic, range topic, etc. without having to sift through everything XM-3500 related.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

Henry,

Your voltages range from 3.28 to 3.49 is a big spread. The voltages should be no more than 0.1 volt apart at most. When were these voltages taken? If they were taken after discharging the pack some, than it indicates a pretty large imbalance.

With the imperfect balancing system I use, my cells are within 0.05 volts of each other.

The voltages of greatest interest are those during CV charging stage, when you have reached fill charging voltage but before the charger shuts off. Every cell should be 3.65 or higher, but no cell go higher than 3.75 volts to avoid long term damage.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

e-ped,

LiFePO4 cells and other lithium chemistries like Lithium Polymer (Lipo) have somewhat different characteristics. The recommended maximum charging voltage for LiFePO4's is 3.65 to 3.70 volts, not 4.25 volts like other Lithium chemistries. Charging them to 4.25 volts gives maybe 5% more capacity but greatly decreases cycle life.

Most importantly the cells must not be allowed to go below below 2.5 volts (decreasing to maybe 2.1 volts at 0 deg C). Just one incursion below these limits can damage the cell. So, as important as a limiter for charging voltage is a low voltage cutoff.

Every cell needs balancing. Balancing the cells in by groups of four still allows imbalance within each group. From Henry's measurements, there are big voltage differences within some of the groups.

A BMS kit based on an LM431 with a TC54 based low voltage cutoff is available here. For 20 cell setups, you will need two of them:

http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EBKE%2DBMS%2DKit

Unfortunately, it is a little more complicated than just an LM431 and a resistor (plus the a voltage divider pair for the reference voltage). The 100ma max current of the LM431 isn't high enough. Then, you still need a low voltage cutoff too.

A discussion on the development of this BMS - including schematics, is here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416

It probably is a good idea to move the battery issues to a separate forum...

Mikie
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 2 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 25, 2008 - 15:55
Points: 114
Re: XM-3500

John-- I paid by cashiers check to this company who sells scooters in texas, they gave me $100 off for paying outright and then the shipping is free too, so I paid $3999. They have been really nice and communicate very well. Also they handle scooters of all types and so I believe they would help me if I had any problems in the future. Because the scooter did not come in the latest container they offered to pay me my money back but I said I would wait. So that was good although they get to keep the interest while we are all waiting right?....I am right in the middle of a big equipment breakdown at my shop on an important machine so I got to go....cheers and I hate this part of being self employed! Mikie

Here is the company:
ECOLECO, SCOOTERSUPPORT.COM and ESCOOTERPARTS.COM
1829-1 County Road 130
Pearland, TX 77581

mikie

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

Mikie, as long as you're happy with the deal then that's the important part. I just wanted you (and others) to know that X-Treme isn't charging anyone until the bikes ship. Good luck getting your machine working!

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

TANWare
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 - 19:42
Points: 13
Re: XM-3500

Hi,
The problem of indicated vs real speed on scooters and motorcycles has existed for ages. It isn't going away just for these electrics.But with Electric Scooters is where there in lies the pressent issue.

If I go purchase a 400cc scooter that has a top indicated speed of 95mph but only does 87mph it is still usable everywhere. Pressent speed limit is 65mph max so there still is headroom at the top end. With these bikes theree is no head room yet. We want to use them to commute and need the speed limits met.

While 55 would not get me on the throughways it would put me on the highways. Albeit for short ranges it could make the bike a daily commuter. If the limit was 75mph real then the throughways for limited distances then becomes a reality.

As far as BMS, it appears they are charging to about 95% or so, this means the batteries going from 90-95% will take a long time allowing the further discharged batteries time to catch up at charge level of 90% or greater. Now combined with a cut off that leaves about 5% or so in the battery you will always have a slight but tolerable imballance. Of course you only get a useable 85-90% of capacity but the batteries will last a long time too.

TANWare
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 - 19:42
Points: 13
Re: XM-3500

One last comment. Charging all cells to 100% with a top charge creates a much higher peak voltage for an extreemly short time, about 2-3% of capacity. The reverse for the last 5%, you get an extreeme drop in voltage per cell. So a charge to 95% and cuttoff at 5% reserve creates a much more stable platform voltage durring use. So with Lipo technology expect this to be almost an industry standard. Remember also most casual users would not go to the extreemes needed to keep batteries conditioned and even then consumer error or neglect can cause issues and with lipo's possible dangers in this circumstance the manufacturers will side with safety first.

Personally loosing 10-15% of capacity for the sake of durability, safety and consistent perfomance is an easy choice to give up.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

TANware,

The cells in question are Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePO4, not Lithium Polymer (Lipo).

But, yes considering that Lithium chemistries are not hurt by partial charging like some other chemistries, one approach is to keep the cell voltage within a lowered upper limit - but the loss in vehicle range doing this a probably more than 10-15%.

But my understanding is that the 3.65 volt upper charging limit us already a conservative upper limit.

HalfMooner
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 19:15
Points: 38
Re: XM-3500

Here's X-Treme's published data for the XM-3500Li:

The Electric XM-3500Li Luxury

The XM-3500Li Lithium Electric Moped is one of our newest additions for 08'

The XM-3500Li is the first of it's kind street legal electric powered moped / motorcycle running on lightweight high powered Lithium batteries Read More Here

I ordered an XM-3500Li with the understanding, as advertised, that it would have a battery maintenance system, ABS, regenerative braking, and a real-time top speed of 55 mph.

All of these factors were important in my making my purchase decision. If the delivered bikes do not have these features, then false advertising has been perpetrated. You can't simply "drop" such advertised features without serious legal repercussions. Doing so is false advertising, and "bait and switch,"

I Am Not A Lawyer, but it seems to me that there are pretty strong regulatory and civil implications here, to say nothing of major questions of business ethics. X-Treme needs to make these things right, or at least make agreeable resolutions with the buyers.

On the other hand, it appears there are a couple of very serious improvements to the bike as delivered, as compared to the specs above:

1) The XM-3500Li as delivered has one additional battery cell, 20, not 19.

2) The scooter is said to actually be taller than 22 inches at the mirrors. (Since an old man riding a pocket bike down city streets looks silly, I appreciate this!)

PetroZero
PetroZero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 11 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 05:34
Points: 59
Re: XM-3500

If I go purchase a 400cc scooter that has a top indicated speed of 95mph but only does 87mph it is still usable everywhere. Present speed limit is 65mph max so there still is headroom at the top end. With these bikes there is no head room yet. We want to use them to commute and need the speed limits met.

While 55 would not get me on the throughways it would put me on the highways. Albeit for short ranges it could make the bike a daily commuter. If the limit was 75mph real then the throughways for limited distances then becomes a reality.

Tan has effectively highlighted the crux of the issue with respect to the "indicated vs actual" speed issue. My thoughts exactly. I don't think anyone is expecting perfection with these bikes, but top speed (particularly when its hovering around a 55-65 target) is non negotiable and for most folks (particularly those seeking a daily commuter) a "deal kill" issue.

One thing that I still have questions about is the language on the x-treme site which states...

Top speed at 55 MPH - Tested to 63 MPH.

Now that we know the true "tested" actual speed is lower, it would seem to be innacurate (at best) and knowingly misleading (at worst) for extreme to continue to promote this language, particularly the "Tested to 63 MPH" part, to folks (most of who don't read these forums and who probably are expecting 55 MPH to be 55 MPH)...

It looks like we might need to wait for the 2nd gen version (or until Mountain (erider.cn) and/or Amoyee(e-fun) come up with a more powerful hub motor capable of propelling this scoot to actual highway speeds)...

~ scott
My Blog: <a href="http://www.petrozero.org">PetroZero.org</a>
My Bike: 2007 Lashout Electric Scooter (12mph/12miles)
Considering: xm-3500Li

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

I ordered an XM-3500Li with the understanding, as advertised, that it would have a battery maintenance system, ABS, regenerative braking, and a real-time top speed of 55 mph.

All of these factors were important in my making my purchase decision. If the delivered bikes do not have these features, then false advertising has been perpetrated. You can't simply "drop" such advertised features without serious legal repercussions. Doing so is false advertising, and "bait and switch,"

HalfMooner - don't forget that if you haven't received your bike yet you can simply cancel your order. You have been informed of these deficiencies before you've received the bike and before you've made any payment. I'm not a lawyer either, but it strikes me that now that you know this information before the financial transaction has taken place you are fully informed and the onus is on you, the consumer, to decide how to proceed. I will be sending an email to all my customers informing them of the situation and pro-actively giving them the option of canceling - just like I did when it became clear the delay before getting the bike was going to be greater than anticipated.

Out of your list the bike does have ABS and a case can be made that the speedo meets NHTSA requirements. Regen can be enabled on these bikes (but the received wisdom is that it's not worth it). The BMS is the most serious issue - however, which would you prefer a sub-optimal BMS that is unreliable or no BMS and a 2 year warranty on the batteries?

I'm not trying to avoid or hide the facts. I'm trying to put them out there and let consumers make their own informed decision. I've asked X-Treme to remove mention of regen and BMS from their site. The top speed and ABS seems reasonable to leave in place.

I agree with TANware - the speed issue is important not because of inaccuracy of the speedo but because there's little headroom. I expect future models will improve on this situation. They would either sacrifice range or need to step up to higher capacity batteries.

We're not there yet - but we're getting there.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

TANware,

In the scenario you described, any cell with slightly less capacity will, even if gradually, fall behind, and eventually get over-discharged and fail. A LVC will at least prevent the low cell from going too low, but the scooter range will be reduced - and good range is why we are using LiFePO4's to begin with.

The only way to prevent this is to assure the cells are equally "topped off", by clamping each and every cell at the recommended 3.6 to 3.7 volts and the same terminal charging current during the CV stage of charging.

And, again, don't call them "Lipo" this means "Lithium Polymer" a very different sort of cell.

Thank you in advance for not addressing my comments.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

It looks like we might need to wait for the 2nd gen version (or until Mountain (erider.cn) and/or Amoyee(e-fun) come up with a more powerful hub motor capable of propelling this scoot to actual highway speeds)...

Actually, the existing motor is probably adequate, it just needs either the voltage or current limit increased a bit.

But, I think it is unrealistic to expect these scooters to be highway vehicles. A few years ago, we were overjoyed at the availability of an e-scooter hat could go 35 mph. The XM-3000/3500 are equivalent to a 50-150cc scooter - which would be marginal on a highway too. There are very few places outside the US where small-displacement scooters are legally allowed to go that fast. In Canada it is 70kph (43 mph), and in the EU it is only 45 kph - so don't expect a lot of effort by manufacturers to achieve this speed - even the Vectrix only goes 100kph.

Also, They could be tweaked to go 60 mph, but the range would be very poor at this speed. They are primarily for use in urban and more sane suburban areas. I have found that a 45 mph (25 mph up the worst hills) is plenty for all I use my e-max scooter for. I myself would never live in an area where a 45 mph electric motor scooter is not adequate - as such sprawling suburban area are not much fun to live in anyway, and no electric vehicle will even have the range to be very practical in rural areas.

Mountain chen
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 5 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 19:18
Points: 319
Re: XM-3500

[quote=PJD(unrealistic to expect these scooters to be highway vehicles. A few years ago, we were overjoyed at the availability of an e-scooter hat could go 35 mph. The XM-3000/3500 are equivalent to a 50-150cc scooter - which would be marginal on a highway too. There are very few places outside the US where small-displacement scooters are legally allowed to go that fast. In Canada it is 70kph (43 mph), and in the EU it is only 45 kph - so don't expect a lot of effort by manufacturers to achieve this speed - even the Vectrix only goes 100kph.

Also, They could be tweaked to go 60 mph, but the range would be very poor at this speed. They are primarily for use in urban and more sane suburban areas. I have found that a 45 mph (25 mph up the worst hills) is plenty for all I use my e-max scooter for. I myself would never live in an area where a 45 mph electric motor scooter is not adequate - as such sprawling suburban area are not much fun to live in anyway, and no electric vehicle will even have the range to be very practical in rural areas.
[/quote]
Yes,higher power with bigger battery and much more expensive price is not a wise choice for urban transportation.

HalfMooner
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 19:15
Points: 38
Re: XM-3500

HalfMooner - don't forget that if you haven't received your bike yet you can simply cancel your order. You have been informed of these deficiencies before you've received the bike and before you've made any payment. I'm not a lawyer either, but it strikes me that now that you know this information before the financial transaction has taken place you are fully informed and the onus is on you, the consumer, to decide how to proceed. I will be sending an email to all my customers informing them of the situation and pro-actively giving them the option of canceling - just like I did when it became clear the delay before getting the bike was going to be greater than anticipated.

Out of your list the bike does have ABS and a case can be made that the speedo meets NHTSA requirements. Regen can be enabled on these bikes (but the received wisdom is that it's not worth it). The BMS is the most serious issue - however, which would you prefer a sub-optimal BMS that is unreliable or no BMS and a 2 year warranty on the batteries?

I'm not trying to avoid or hide the facts. I'm trying to put them out there and let consumers make their own informed decision. I've asked X-Treme to remove mention of regen and BMS from their site. The top speed and ABS seems reasonable to leave in place.

I agree with TANware - the speed issue is important not because of inaccuracy of the speedo but because there's little headroom. I expect future models will improve on this situation. They would either sacrifice range or need to step up to higher capacity batteries.

We're not there yet - but we're getting there.

Thanks much for the reply, jdh2550_1.

Personally, I'm still undecided about canceling the order. On one hand, I'm disgusted by the huge difference between what we have been sold, and what we have bought. On the other hand, this may still be the best electric transportation I can afford.

I want to correct one misconception: I had not complained about the inaccuracy of the speedo, but rather the apparent inability of the scooter to reach an actual velocity of 55 mph as advertised.

Your personal policy of notifying all your customers of the discrepancies between advertised and delivered features is outstanding, jdh2550_1! I commend you. By contrast, I have received no such notice from X-Treme. In fact, despite your suggestion to them, they are still advertising all those mythical features.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

Here is a bit of an update based on some communication with a representative of elite power solutions - an authorized seller of Thundersky products. She is of the opinion that one can get suitable performance without a BMS if charging voltage for the pack is kept no more than (3.6* no. cells) + 0.6 volts, and a proprietary Thundersky charger is used. This charger has 3 stages - the usual CC and CV stages, plus a pulse stage. The idea is to stay away from the highly non-linear part of the charging curve, where some cells can shoot up to damaging voltages. The penalty is about 5% less capacity. Not sure what the pulse stage does, but it may be an equalization protocol that Thundersky has come up with.

This is effectively the point that TANWare was making.

I remain skeptical, but this may not be as big an issue as I thought it was.

but, at any rate, the Gary Goodrum BMS is relatively inexpensive and it assures cell balance and low voltage protection. I'd be willing to assemble the BMS's and wiring harnesses for small fee. But the problem with this BMS is the voltage on the Thundersky chargers would be too low for it to work properly.

BTW, you may be interested to know that Elite Power Solutions has a clone of the XM-3500 - but with 21, 60AH cells, delivering a claimed 62 to 95 mile range and 53 mph real-world top speed. Pricey though - $4,780.

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=2_19&products_id=22

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

On one hand, I'm disgusted by the huge difference between what we have been sold, and what we have bought.

I'm not sure I agree it's a huge difference. But that's your call. Why I don't think it's huge is:

I'm glad it doesn't have regen. It's a bit of gee-whiz feature and doesn't actually have terribly much functional purpose. The controller does support regen and you can enable it if you want (I wouldn't bother if I were you).

It doesn't have a BMS - and that was dropped because (a) it was unreliable and thus supplying the bike with an unreliable BMS would have been bad & (b) it appears that charging with the Thundersky charger and without a BMS is acceptable as far as Thundersky (the battery manufacturer) is concerned. It is bad that we weren't informed, but it's not bad that we don't have a BMS.

The top speed is likely off by no more than 5mph. The speedo is accurate enough to satisfy NHTSA thus quoting the speed from the supplied speedo does not seem unreasonable. However, as noted because top speed is a marginal issue (at 50 or 55) I do understand this is a sensitive point.

I want to correct one misconception: I had not complained about the inaccuracy of the speedo, but rather the apparent inability of the scooter to reach an actual velocity of 55 mph as advertised.

I did understand that you were more concerned about the actual top speed rather than speedo accuracy. However, the speedo provided says it does 55mph. And that speedo satisfies the NHTSA. Thus, quoting that speedo would be common practice (just like ads for my Focus would indicate top speed per the provided speedo and not from an external measuring device).

By contrast, I have received no such notice from X-Treme.

Did you order directly from X-Treme? Just curious (and, I suspect ArcticFox is curious too).

In fact, despite your suggestion to them, they are still advertising all those mythical features.

Give them time - it is the weekend, hopefully they'll correct the site copy by early next week. "All those mythical features" really boils down to regen and BMS.

Note, this post is all a bit more defensive sounding then I really mean it to be. You've every right to be po'd that the bike doesn't match what you expected from a reasonable interpretation of the advertisement. My reason for posting isn't to tell you you're wrong, I'm just trying to post things from a different perspective.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

ArcticFox
ArcticFox's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 14:08
Points: 1091
Re: XM-3500

Did you order directly from X-Treme? Just curious (and, I suspect ArcticFox is curious too).

Huhu.... huh... *sigh*. Check your email in a bit, Jdh.//www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0009.gif)

<table border="0" style="border:1px solid #999999; padding:10px;"><tr><td>
<a href="http://www.BaseStationZero.com">[img]http://visforvoltage.org/files/u419...
[size=1][color=black]www.[/color][color=#337799]BaseStationZero[/color][co

HalfMooner
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 19:15
Points: 38
Re: XM-3500

I'm glad it doesn't have regen. It's a bit of gee-whiz feature and doesn't actually have terribly much functional purpose. The controller does support regen and you can enable it if you want (I wouldn't bother if I were you).

It doesn't have a BMS - and that was dropped because (a) it was unreliable and thus supplying the bike with an unreliable BMS would have been bad & (b) it appears that charging with the Thundersky charger and without a BMS is acceptable as far as Thundersky (the battery manufacturer) is concerned. It is bad that we weren't informed, but it's not bad that we don't have a BMS.

Well, they are advertised, and not provided. That, and its implications, should speak for itself. And no, I of course don't want a bad BMS system. I rather selfishly expected a fully functional one for protecting those expensive batteries, as advertised.

The top speed is likely off by no more than 5mph. The speedo is accurate enough to satisfy NHTSA thus quoting the speed from the supplied speedo does not seem unreasonable. However, as noted because top speed is a marginal issue (at 50 or 55) I do understand this is a sensitive point.

An inaccurate speedometer just does not justify an inaccurate advertisement. This is a very critical 5 mph difference, IMHO. A real top speed of 55 would make short trips on the local bridges and freeways practical, whereas 50 mph would be dangerously slow, and perhaps illegal. I can live with surface street only travel, but would far prefer to have more options on occasion.

Give them time - it is the weekend, hopefully they'll correct the site copy by early next week. "All those mythical features" really boils down to regen and BMS.

Note, this post is all a bit more defensive sounding then I really mean it to be. You've every right to be po'd that the bike doesn't match what you expected from a reasonable interpretation of the advertisement. My reason for posting isn't to tell you you're wrong, I'm just trying to post things from a different perspective.

Please don't boil the contents of that pot down quite so much. You left out two of my concerns. Make that "regenerative braking, BMS, ABS, and 55-mph speed." That's four, none of which I consider minor, and the last two of which have arguable safety implications.

Yes, I bought directly from the X-Treme site, not yet knowing that there were X-Treme dealers in this forum. (I also had no idea that X-Treme had told their dealers that X-Treme would not compete with the dealers on a retail level.) Sorry, dealer-guys, had I known these things then, or I would have purchased through one of you.

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: XM-3500

Please don't boil the contents of that pot down quite so much. You left out two of my concerns. Make that "regenerative braking, BMS, ABS, and 55-mph speed." That's four, none of which I consider minor, and the last two of which have arguable safety implications.

As someone (was it Link?) summed it up before: "They tell lies, big stinking lies!"

My Vectrix was supposed to be silent, 110km range, virtually maintenance free, reliable, acceleration 0-80km/h 6.8sec, recharging 80% in 2 hours. Or something like that.

And then there was this mythical thing called "trail blazer program"; supposedly, as per verbal assurances by the salesman, "they" would look after you really well, even after the warranty period is over....

.........

What is important: is that millions of "low level EV techs" will be needed to turn the disastrous course of events on planet earth around. (Along with millions and millions of all sorts of "low level experts for all sorts of stuff", of course.)

And if you manage to get a Z20 to go more than 100km (ever), or install a BMS or monitoring system on a working e-scooter, or repair the common problems on any of the common EV's....there you are!

And the fastest way to become one, a useful, EV-enabled member of society, that is, is to buy the latest, greatest EV-ripoff and then make it work, despite the hype!

But please, please give the salespersons a serve where you can. They will, but must not get away with it...

Keep the bastards honest, mate! (Or make them, rather.)

Good luck!

Mr. Mik

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Henry42
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 1, 2008 - 15:44
Points: 85
Re: XM-3500

My apologies to John, Mountain Chen, and the other dealers, I was not aware of any other dealers at the time I ordered. I got the impression from the web site that X-Treme was the dealer.

Here are the voltage results. I measured after riding the scooter for about 8 miles (It took time since it is not licensed yet so it was done in my driveway.) All batteries were 3.20V except #12 & #16, which were 3.21V.

I had someone sit in the passenger seat and the comment was that it is uncomfortable unless you point your toes out. It appears to be the protrusion of the molding pushes against the ankles.

Question on the "REGEN" capability, I thought that all motors were generators. (i.e. Apply electrical energy and it is a motor. Apply mechanical energy and it is a generator.) Could someone explain this? One of the reasons I decided to get this was because of the regen capability. I am going downhill for about 5 of the 20 commute miles.

Does the XM-3500Li have ABS? The reason I ask is both brakes have a component which is labeled "ABS". I am not comfortable enough (being a new rider) to test it.

I wonder if the lights were on during the range test. The state law requires that the head and tail light be on while operating any motorcycle/motor scooter.

The X-Treme web site now states Charger: “Thunder Sky Smart Charger” (before it stated “Thunder Sky Smart Charger With BMS”. The controller still states Controller: “Digital Protected Water Proof Controller With REGEN”

ebabs
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 08:51
Points: 9
Re: XM-3500

We all want to support electrical vs. gas. But what X-Treme is doing (and Mountain Chen by extension), etc. are doing is misleading.
You should not have to expect to read all blogs and to create your own BMS. 55mph is needed in the US. I don't care what Mountain Chen says about 45mph is good for him. Our expressways people need this speed and more.

X-Treme state 63mph top speed.... this is huge as it shows extra headroom and thus 55mph could be a constant speed. 55mph actual as a top would mean "maybe" 50mph constant speed?!?

This would mean a highway and maybe an expressway is NOT an option. Our expressways go from stop and go to 45-55+ mph "actual" speed. Our freeways go from stop and go to 60-70++++ mph "actual" speed.

Thus the misleading statistics will create sales and pissed off customers.

RE: BMS? What's the real reason for this not being included? My assumption is cost.

RE: Battery Warranty? What is the real deal here? Are you sure X-Treme will really back it up? Will they still be in business? Others have gone out of business with this?
Are you sure that Thunder Sky will warrant these without a proper BMS?

RE: REGEN? It won't do much on a light bike, but another reason for a sale perhaps.

RE: Mountain Chen? Busy fixing this mess I hope! Your reputation is going to be trashed if you're not careful because of features not being delivered.

RE: Apologists? Stop apologizing for these folks that are not delivering product as advertised. The only way to improve this is to keep their feet to the fire!

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

Halfmooner - I guess we just need to agree to differ. I left off two of the four because (a) it does have ABS & (b) if one takes the reading on the speedo it does do 55mph. Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone you're wrong and I'm right. Just putting forth another point of view. I really don't think a difference of 5mph transitions a vehicle from practical to "dangerously slow", nor to "illegal" - the bike has less than 5HP so it's not allowed on restricted access roads regardless of top speed.

I tell you what - I'll be more accurate in my accounting of missing features if you will be more specific than referring to "all these mythical features". ;-) (that's meant as good natured teasing - yes I was wrong to boil things down in that way, but your statement of the situation seemed a little "over the top" to me).

Above all - we just have a different point of view. I'm not happy either that X-Treme's advertisements are written the way they are. That's just one of the many reasons I hope to create my own brand early next year. I don't wish to argue with you - but I do have an interest in seeing counter balancing view points aired.

Henry - Yes, the bike does have a form of ABS. However, this is not like the ABS in your car. In your car the ABS senses when the wheel is locked and releases and then reapplies the brakes. The ABS provided on this bike (and on lots of other gasoline powered scooters) works by attempting to prevent the locking of the wheel in the first place - I believe it works by reducing the braking force applied via the calipers (think of it a bit like a safety valve). I will research more about this form of ABS.

My range test of 48 miles at 50mph speeds over varying terrain was done with the lights on. The lights don't draw enough power to have a significant effect on range.

You are right, all motors can act as generators. However, the controller needs to be set up so that the generation action can be used. The controller in the XM-3500Li is capable of being set up this way - but it's not currently configured like that "out of the box".

Regen has two basic advantages:
1) It improves braking performance. This can save brake pads and slow you down more quickly. The saving in brake pads on a bike that weighs as little as the XM-3500 seems negligible (although I haven't quantified this). The improved braking performance isn't really needed because the disc brakes front and rear provide plenty of stopping power.

2) It turns the braking energy into electrical energy. This can help extend range. Over on another forum an "EV expert" enabled regen on an XM-3000 and found that range was extended by 0.2% (not 20% or 2% but 0.2%).

However, regen can be implemented in different ways. This bike was always going to have the most basic regen capability in this mode:

1) the regen is switched on as a binary function (either all on or all off). To prevent a really violent stopping motion on the rear wheel the amount of regen action (the amount of electrical load recovered) would have to be reduced. This reduces the amount of electrical energy available to extend range.
2) the electrical energy from the regen function basically flows straight to the batteries. Batteries can only accept so much charge. A better, but more complicated and more expensive, system is to have that electrical energy flow into a capacitor. Capacitors can accept charge much more quickly - thus they are capable of capturing more of the regen electrical energy. You then need to have a system whereby the output from the capacitor recharges the battery, or, more likely, the output from the capacitor is used to assist powering the rear wheel.

The Vectrix, a $9000 (was a $12000) bike, has variable regen. I don't know if it has a capacitor to capture regen energy and I don't know how much regen extends the range. Mik, if you read this do you have any tests showing how much regen can extend your range?

To paraphrase Winston Churchill "There are liars, damn liars, and marketers!" Those marketers are usually not outright liars - but they are manipulators. Just ask DaveM, he's still using Gillette products and he hasn't had a single date with a supermodel...

It's sad but true.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

ebnabs and others,

If we are going to expect all this speed and performance than we are also going to end up with electric scooters with carbon footprints as large as gas scooters. Than what will the point be? Considering their Italian origins, the use of scooters as personal transportation presupposes a more European style pattern of development. I guess I'm lucky to live in such a place, but with a little checking of maps you would find that in most places you don't have to use freeways to get places.

Like I wrote, 2 years ago, we were overjoyed to go 35, mph, then 45 mph with mods. E-bkiers or or owners of bikes like the e-go are overjoyed to go 25 to 30 mph. Now nobody is happy with less than 60 mph. Firstly this is not a trend in the right direction - this is the trend that led to 1200cc Harleys and the Hummer H2; secondly with existing battery technology range is badly reduced at 60 mph. Due to air drag, the power required increases as the cube of the speed.

Remember the slogan "Small is beautiful"? The corollary is "Slow is beautiful".

PJD
PJD's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:44
Points: 1416
Re: XM-3500

John,

Was that 48 mile range achieved at an average speed of 50 mph? That's pretty good.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

We all want to support electrical vs. gas. But what X-Treme is doing (and Mountain Chen by extension), etc. are doing is misleading.

Another word to describe what they are doing is marketing.

You should not have to expect to read all blogs and to create your own BMS.

Agreed. But this is a new bleeding edge market. I wonder what it was like to buy the first Ford or the first Honda?

55mph is needed in the US. I don't care what Mountain Chen says about 45mph is good for him. Our expressways people need this speed and more.

IMNSHO (that's in my not so humble opinion) you'd be crazy to take any vehicle not capable of 80mph on an expressway. Furthermore, the XM-3500 doesn't have enough HP to be legal on restricted access highways.

X-Treme state 63mph top speed.... this is huge as it shows extra headroom and thus 55mph could be a constant speed. 55mph actual as a top would mean "maybe" 50mph constant speed?!?

And how do you work that out? Do you know how the top speed is governed? It's done by reducing the power output from the controller, not by monitoring the speed. Hence, this top speed becomes variable due to terrain, payload, wind etc X-Treme states "Top speed at 55 MPH - Tested to 63 MPH. De-tuned to 55 MPH for increased range." Why do you only quote half of what X-Treme says? Is it to mislead folks and better support your argument? If so, then aren't you using the same "tactics" that you accuse X-Treme of using?

Thus the misleading statistics will create sales and pissed off customers.

Yep, and as davem says, I use Gillette products and have yet to get a date with a supermodel (if any supermodels are reading please call me - website below). In other words although many of us find the marketing hype discouraging a lot of us learn to look beyond it.

RE: BMS? What's the real reason for this not being included? My assumption is cost.

Nope, not cost, reliability.

RE: Battery Warranty? What is the real deal here? Are you sure X-Treme will really back it up? Will they still be in business? Others have gone out of business with this?
Are you sure that Thunder Sky will warrant these without a proper BMS?

Nope, I'm not sure of what the state of affairs will be in 2 years time. I don't know the winning lottery numbers either. However, X-Treme have been in business since 2000. They sell in excess of 100,000 units a year. What basis do you use for your "scare mongering"? Do you have an agenda? Likely not, I clearly do have an agenda - the care and feeding of this nascent market (I can assure you I'm not getting rich quick!).

RE: REGEN? It won't do much on a light bike, but another reason for a sale perhaps.

At last, something we agree on! ;-) Yes, regen is one of those "marketing check list" type items.

RE: Mountain Chen? Busy fixing this mess I hope! Your reputation is going to be trashed if you're not careful because of features not being delivered.

If you look at Mountain's history you will see that he's quite resilient. However, beyond the "Barnum" philosophy, Mountain's product IS GETTING BETTER. Folks seem to want to take a single moment in time and extrapolate from that. Look at history and also look at where we want to get to. This is just one step on the way.

RE: Apologists? Stop apologizing for these folks that are not delivering product as advertised. The only way to improve this is to keep their feet to the fire!

IMNSHO, If you want to be effective then you'd do better trying to engage in a sensible discussion with folks. Rather than going for the "righteous indignation" approach. You catch more bees with honey...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

John,

Was that 48 mile range achieved at an average speed of 50 mph? That's pretty good.

PJD - it was about 70% out of town riding cruising at 50mph. The other 30% was stop and go city traffic with speeds up to 40mph. Those are just rough figures - it was an attempt to find a "real world" max range rather than a carefully controlled range test.

I'll likely be sticking with quoting 40 miles for my "real world" range (just jump on and ride).

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

davem
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 10:00
Points: 30
Re: XM-3500

Ebabs,

Since you are new here (at least under this name - less than 2hours at the time you wrote

"RE: Apologists? Stop apologizing for these folks that are not delivering product as advertised. The only way to improve this is to keep their feet to the fire!"

I will say that I learn something on this site everyday, and people are always debating and issuing different opinions. That's great and certainly I often start off wrong and work till I'm right.

We disagree on the degree of the matereial failure of the marketing hype.

By ALL means disagree, and state your point...just remember that your conclusion may not be the same as everyone else's and maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong as often as I can . With that in mind, I took your statements as condescending, which strongly detracks from your technicaly valid points and OPINIONS.

Joek
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 2 months ago
Joined: Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 20:41
Points: 6
Re: XM-3500

:) HI: Halfmooner your post of quotes are great and I agree with you 100% on everything written. I too came to this forum after I placed a order for the Xm3500Li wich now I hear is XB3500Li or am I wrong again? The amount of missled spec's and statements For the Ah, ah, 3500Li moped should make X-treme and the dealers very upset for, they are the ones that will have to take the brunt of it. A few more missled-statements that are really a gigle, (DOT Approved 60+ mph)(2 speed automatic shift trans) (Rear wheel hub motor/No chains), now that statment can be believed. SO halfmooner I like your style,thanks for posting and Mik,the same for you post below, great job.

Green Zero Ev'er

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: XM-3500

the Xm3500Li wich now I hear is XB3500Li or am I wrong again?

Yeah, the sticker says XB when it should say XM. Yet another mix up. Sigh...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

Pages

Topic locked


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • Vectrix Man
  • boch
  • pkfridges
  • adahon
  • aliadil961

Customize This