All:
Well, I'm new to this forum and just took delivery of my new DOT approved GPR-S. It's the AC version with 20, 50AH cells. I think it's the first registered in Texas and will have the TAG "AC-001". I notice that little exposure of the Electric Motorsport GPR-S in this forum so I thought I would introduce it. The bike is about "250CC" size weighing in at 280 pounds. The frame is made by Tiger in Thailand (which also makes some Kawasaki frames). It comes with a backlited LCD dispay which shows speed, odometer, trip odometer and time. Mine also came with a Curtis Spyglass which also shows speed as well as BDI% (remaining battery), AMPS, Volts, controller temperature, and RPM. Mine has 20, 50AH HiPower LiFePO4 batteries, a Curtis 1236 controller and an AC-15 motor which I'm told can deliver about 36HP in this configuration. The bike has regen which provides very nice braking and gives a little energy back when stopping. Some other characteristics and performance points are listed below:
1. The craftsmanship, fit and finish of the bike is excellent. The only possible issue I have identified so far is the black cover on the access port on top of the tank which covers the cord storage area hinge that holds the electrical cord is weak. People will be breaking these off without much effort. The paint quality is excellent. The mechanical and electrical setup looks to be done with quality parts and workmanship. I wouldn't quite call it aircraft quality integration, but it's as good as my '08 Toyota Camry Hybrid.
2. The kickstand is great. It has a little handle that sticks out that makes it easy to kick it up. And it goes up and down a lot easier than the ones I rode in motorcycle school (which was a new bike with 600 miles). It is strong enough to rock the bike up on the kickstand and rotate the bike 180 degrees to get out of your parking spot. I had the lights on while riding and I could easily see the numbers on the main gauge which has MPH, Trip, Odo and clock.
3. The acceleration is relatively soft off the line but then comes on strong. The softness has it's advantages in that it makes for a very smooth and controlled take-off. There is good power after 20MPH and clearly acceleration per degree of throttle increase is much more at 35 MPH than it is at 5MPH. I've got to do some additional testing to see if this degree of softness schedule is ramped with speed or time. I suspect speed. Top speed is said to be 80MPH, but I've only done 55 to date. There is still plenty of power left at that point. RPM at 55 is only 4300 of the 7500 authorized. The Spyglass indicates a max of 300AMPs at full throttle. A steady 30 MPH indicates a draw of about 30-32 AMPs. The regen is very strong. Under normal conditions in a housing area you don't use the brakes at all until you get below 3-5 MPH to get to the final rest. You can reduce power and not turn on the regen (or not hard), but when you turn the throttle all the way off it acts like a brake with about the same decel you would brake with under normal conditions. The regen and brake lights are activated by either applying brakes or throttle off. The Spyglass indicates -14 AMPs when the regen goes on above 30MPH. It was very windy today with wind steady at 15 gusting to 20. I could feel a little buffeting but it wasn't bad and tracked pretty straight.
4. When fully charged, the Spyglass indicates about 81 Volts. I did a very rough estimate of miles/charge but the numbers are so small they are probably not very accurate but so far I'm getting about 50 Miles Per Charge (MPC) based on the BDI percentage drop compared to miles traveled. I'm nervous about damaging the batteries so I probably won't take it down too low. I'm told it's best not to take the batteries down below 2.5Volts which for me translates to 50 Volts remaining.
5. The seat is very comfortable and has a second seat and pegs for a passenger. There is no integrated storage for your helmet, but it does have an external lock with the same key as the main switch.
6. The noise generated by the motor / drive train is a little louder than I anticipated. It's probably about the 75-78db level. It's a little louder when just taking off (5-15 MPH)and then quieter when cruising (40MPH).
A couple of pictures are posted below.
All:
Well, I just took delivery of my new GPR-S. It's the AC version with 20, 50AH cells. I think it's the first registered in Texas and will have the TAG "AC-001".
1. The noise generated by the motor / drive train is a little louder than I anticipated. I think that the motor is hard mounted to the frame and the motor noise resonates through the frame, making it louder. It's probably about the 75-78db level. It's a little louder when just taking off (5-15 MPH)and then quieter when cruising (40MPH).
2. The regen is very strong. Under normal conditions in the housing area you don't use the brakes at all until you get below 3 MPH to get to the final rest. You can reduce power and not turn on the regen (or not hard), but when you turn the throttle all the way off it acts like a brake with about the same decel you would brake with under normal conditions. The regen and brake lights are activated by either applying brakes or throttle off. The Spyglass indicates -14 AMPs when the regen goes on above 30MPH.
3. It was very windy today with wind steady at 15 gusting to 20. I could feel a little buffeting but it wasn't bad and tracked pretty straight.
4. I did a very rough estimate of miles/tank but the numbers are so small they are probably not very accurate but so far I'm getting about 40 MPT based on the BDI percentage drop compared to miles traveled. I'm nervous about damaging the batteries so I probably won't take it down too low. I think Martin told me I could take it down to 2.5v / bat so that would mean I could take it down to 50V.
5. The seat is very comfortable, but I tended to slide forward into the tank if I wasn't a bit careful. That may be because the pegs are pretty far back. Also, if you're not paying attention your knees can strike the top of the fairings. That will just take a little getting used to.
6. I had the lights on while riding and I could easily see the numbers on the main gauge which has MPH, Trip, Odo and clock.
7. The craftsmanship, fit and finish of the bike is excellent. The only issue I have identified so far is the hinge that holds the electrical cord cap is weak (the black access port on top of the tank). People will be breaking these off. The paint quality is excellent. The electrical setup looks to be done with quality parts and workmanship. I wouldn't quite call it aircraft quality integration, but it's as good as my '08 Toyota Camry Hybrid.
9. The rear springs are yellow. I think they should be black and I'm going to work on that
10. The kickstand is great. It has a little handle that sticks out that makes it easy to kick it up. And it goes up and down a lot easier than the ones I rode in motorcycle school (which was a new bike with 600 miles). Martin also showed me a neat trick yesterday. If the bike is sitting in a parking spot and you want to turn it 180 degrees to get out of the spot. You stand on the kick stand side, hold the bike by the handlebar and the seat handhold, pull it up to balance it on the kickstand and walk it around counterclockwise to the new heading. He said he made sure they bought strong enough kickstands to do that.
11. The acceleration is relatively soft off the line but then comes on strong. The softness has it's advantages in that it makes for a very smooth and controlled take-off. There is good power after 20MPH and clearly acceleration per degree of throttle increase is much more at 35 MPH than it is at 5MPH. I've got to do some additional testing to see if this degree of softness schedule is ramped with speed or time. I suspect speed.
ChuckJ
Sorry about the multiple posts, it posted before I was ready and being new I can't figure out how to edit (perhaps someone can educate me there). I was also trying to integrate a couple of pictures which I captured and uploaded, but obviously they didn't post.
ChuckJ
sup chuck ;) fancy seeing you here...
happy turkey day.
____________
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR Conversion
www.evfr.net
Travis:
Happy Thanksgiving to you!!
How do you edit in this forum?
Chuck
Congrats on the GPR-S. I have been looking at these as well, can you tell me when you ordered yours, and how long it took to get it. Did there delivery time match their estimate? What was the cost of the bike, and also what about shipping cost.
I know, lots of questions, but I just have to know!
I have seen all their ads. but yours is the first post by an owner, so until now, I have been concerned about whether they were real company or not.
Finally, where are you in Texas, i am in Austin, and I would love to see the GPR-s up close,
Tom
Win32forth:
They are just starting to put them out. I ordered mine in July or August expecting delivery in Sept / Oct. It arrived early Nov. Right now they have all that are on hand sold, but they are awaiting BMS chargers which are very late but expected in within a couple of weeks. I'm not sure when their next batch of 30 will be built, you would have to call Todd Kollin (EMS) and ask. They can make any of three versions:
1. Etek
2. SepEx
3. AC
They start at $8000 and could go as high as $9500 for the AC. I think you can add extra batteries also at $100 each. They are working with a dealer in Austin to get him started, but I don't know the name. I'm in Dallas.
ChuckJ
Chuck,
Thank you for the quick reply. The GPR-S sounds wonderful, and I will be waiting for your further updates on the bikes performance. Now all I have to do is convince my "beautiful" that I need to spend $10k.
I have read a limited amount on AC drive motors, and it seems they are more complex to control, but have higher efficiency. What about starting torque?
TomZ
P.S. If you haven't found out how t edit your post, there is an edit button at the bottom of each of your posts and replys when you are logged in to the site. You can just go make changes the same way as you entered the post in the first place.
Tom:
There's a torque / HP curve in the Thunderstruck Motors site (although it's for 48 Volt and would be different for 60 or 72. It's very adequate for starting and very smooth, then it builds all the way up to 50+.
I forgot to answer your question about delivery cost. It ranges from $300-$400.
Still haven't found the edit button.
Chuck
Electric motorsport has been the largest source
for electric motorcycle conversion parts for several years
has sold more EVmc conversions than anyone
has been building Evmc conversions for several years
designed new GPR-S for production this year
I think production schedule is first batch 30 bikes
then in batches of 100 2nd batch should be in stock now
I went to Solfest in August Todd has a display
I got in a little early Todd's work crew weren't in yet
so i just kinda ended up talking to people about GPR-S
they asked if had literature
I had to say no. have Ev production motorcycle right here
they all got it. no brochure saying will have soon, which we have heard before
In production first, then promote
In feb of 08 he announced was starting production have available in summer 08
i called Todd in August had first 3 production GPR-S in stock
i'd say on schedule again more impressive than what we've seen in the past
the hold up on BMS will only be weeks compared to some other Manufacturer of EV that have been years out in production, few weeks ain't much time
Marc Fresno,CA where the Sierra Nevada are hidden (smog)
Marc, Fresno,CA where the Sierra Nevada Mountains are hidden (smog)
How fast is that AC powered GPR-S ?
i just put a sepex motor in my VFR at 84 volt
it is fast real acceleration
i thought would be just little faster than Etek but much faster
spot on road where my toyota pick up hits 40 mph i'm at 60 mph wowie
Sepex 25 hp max
your AC is 36 hp max
man that has to be fast
Marc Fresno,Ca where the Sierra Nevada mountains are hidden (smog)
Marc, Fresno,CA where the Sierra Nevada Mountains are hidden (smog)
Chuck,
Interesting about the edit button, seems to be gone on my posts as well. I think the edit button must be available after posting, for a while, perhaps only on the most recent post, then goes away. Oh, well, what's a little duplication.
Tom
the edit button is hit and miss.... alot of times its not there.
Asked the mods, they never fixed it...
____________
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR Conversion
www.evfr.net
ChuckJ,
I am very happy to hear your review of the new GPR-S, sound like the bike I have been waiting for. Hope you have a lot of great rides on it. Just thought I'd add a link here to Electric Motorsports.
Wow, the GPR sounds like a great bike!!!
a side note; the edit function is only available to a poster until a reply is given. The edit button is not broken, it works just like it is supposed to. There is a "Preview comment" button at the bottom of the post screen which allows you to see the post before you post it. This button allows you to check the post as many times as you wish before you post it. This allows you can do multiple edits before the initial post.
Grandpa Chas S.
ChuckJ - Congratulations! The GPR-S has definitely been a bike worth watching. It's great news to hear that they're finally in production and in the hands of customers. Keep us posted as you put the bike through it's paces.
(Another note on editing - the original post can never be edited - only follow up posts, and only when there are no replies. AFAIK, these rules were put in place when there was an issue with folks going back and editing their posts and completely changing their content (rather than fixing typo's or adding clarification))
O/T - Frodus - are your friends still making their own controller? If so, how is it progressing?
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
So those are the "edit rules"... I always wondered why it was hit and miss :)
To JDH, we're working on them, finalizing some code and assembly. We have a list of 15 or 20 people that are going to be a part of the Beta Test run, including myself. It should be very soon that we have the 156V 600+A controller, then we're moving to AC.
____________
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR Conversion
www.evfr.net
Chuck-
Now that you have had it for awhile. What about the GPR-S do you not like? What would you change? Anyone else got any ideas? I am looking to get one, but 9-10K is alot of money to spend. Just want to make sure I am getting the best thing for the money.
thanks
Randy
Randy:
Everything has it's good point and bad, but in the case of the GPR-S the bad is relatively limited. I've tried to capture some of those points below:
1. As I said in the main writeup the AC version is relatively noisy. I'm told this is due to the way the engine operates. It's not as quiet as a BMW by far. It has a fairly high frequency sound that is probably amplified by the frame and fairings. I'm looking to see what can be done about that.
2. The mirrors are standard from Tiger (which also makes some Kawasiki bikes) and are too short. About the only thing you can look at is your arms. I've ordered 2" extenders which I think will solve that problem.
3. The bike comes with a base instrument which has MPH, Trip ODO, ODO, and clock. It is (in my case suplimented by a second "electron" instrument which tells RPM, %bat used, AMPs, speed, voltage, etc. I'm told they plan to integrate those into the main back-lit LCD display and it will be nice when that happens.
That's about all I can think of (other than the exotic like LED headlights)
ChuckJ
I've got a correction from a statement that was made in the first paragraph describing the product. I said that the Spyglass showed several parameters including "controller" temperature. It does say controller temperature, but it really means Motor temperature. In addition, the controller limits power when the motor starts to get hot to keep things within operating limits. But although there is a guage, the good news is that the controller will begin cutting back performance at 145 C and max cutback at 160 C (according to Curtis / Thunderstruck Motors who set the software), so you don't have to worry about the temperature because the controller is set to protect the motor and itself from over-temperature damage. Interestingly, so far I've only seen 40C so I don't think there's much to worry about, but if you rode at 75-80 MPH for a while I'm sure it will go up. I'll keep you all up if I see those kind of conditions.
ChuckJ
Another addendum:
When I first got my GPR-S one of the only issues was that the mirrors were so short that the only thing you see was your arm. That's been fixed now by my purchase of some 10mm Motorcycle Mirror Risers / Extenders from Lucky Motorcycle.
They're high quality, $25 and well worth it.
ChuckJ
Note: The URL was wrong, fixed by moderator.
Thanks for the awesome review of this very interesting bike!
Top speed is said to be 80MPH, but I've only done 55 to date. There is still plenty of power left at that point. RPM at 55 is only 4300 of the 7500 authorized.
Hmmm... I'd like to see this top speed verified. Are there no freeways near you where you could take this bike up to at least a freeway cruise speed of 65 - 70mph without breaking the law?
Also... how do they figure the bike has 36hp? 72V (actually 68V nominal, right?) x 300Amps = 21.9kW from the batts, which is 29.4hp prior to losses at the controller, motor, and drivetrain. Still... with a Cd of 1.0, this should still get you to a max speed of over 80 mph if the gearing was done correctly. Am I missing something?
What kind of range are you seeing from the bike? For the benefit of the members of this forum and potential future GPR-S owners, would you be willing to do a range test?
im assuming these 50AH cells are LiFePO4?
in which case 20 cells would be 64v nominal.
If they are good (and i mean really really good) then at 300A (6C) they would sag to 3vpc, giving 60v.
60x300=18kw-losses.
it appears even the specs on the gprs are inflated.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Designer:
You're probably right on the HP. To get the 36HP it would have to be right after you charged the batteries which actually get it to 81+ volts and all the batteries make 50AH, some make more. The 36 is estimated by the tech at EMS as there isn't a published curve for it and shouldn't be taken as a precise specification. And unlike an ICE using gas, it will go down as the batteries deplete.
I'm told the folks who made the bike took it to 65 (limited by a short test strip). Someday I'll take it to that but I'm going to have to get a lot more confidence up before I do that. There still seems to be significant power margin at 55. Thunderstruck motors advertises 80MPH for their 50AH, 72V version. The SepEx version just did 58+MPH in 1/8 of a mile in an official drag function and it has considerably less HP.
I'm not sure about your 1.0 Cd. I'm not sure Cd is the issue. It's probably more just how much flat plate drag there is. Rolling friction is probably low due to the narrow wheels. Bottom line is that it meets my needs which is "around town" not freeway.
The range is another area I will have a hard time with. I'm told that the life of the batteries is increased with charging after every use. I only travel 5-10 miles per trip and the BDI indicator indicates about 50 miles range, but with the characteristics of LifePo4 batteries being voltage stays up high for most of the charge range, then drops dramatically it's hard to tell by just looking at voltage and I don't have much confidence in the BDI indicator. I don't think I've gone below 66 volts yet and I can go down to 50. This bike is the AC version. I'm not sure how it compares with the efficiency of the base bike. I think the majority of people on other sites like "ElMoto" have come up with a benchmark of 1 mile per amp at 40-45MPH or 50 miles for 50 amps (and their bikes usually weigh considerably more than the 280 for this bike). But it probably isn't half that at 65MPH. The key here is getting a gage that can accurately measure watts used.
ChuckJ
Matt,
I think the LiFePO4 batteries I'm familiar with have a nominal voltage of 3.45V per cell, but good point on the voltage sag at 6C. So that's a peak of 24hp at the motor at full charge. The Curtis 1236 also lists 300A as peak in their literature. I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble here, just want to cut through the marketing crap to get down to the real figures. 24hp is certainly nothing to be ashamed of on a bike that light.
Chuck:
Perhaps you could lend your bike (I know... hard to fathom!:)) to an experienced motorcyclist to run it up to top speed and tell him or her to watch the voltage drop so they don't injure your baby. You're correct - top speed should depend on your frontal area (probably just over 6.0 ft^2) with rider, Cd, and wheel horsepower. An upright commuting motorcycle such as yours is at a disadvantage as it puts you, the rider, out in the open like a barn door. I, like many others, are curious as to whether or not this is a truly "freeway capable" bike or not... and the curiousity is killing me! :)
Designer:
The easiest thing for you to do is to talk to Todd Kollin at Electric Motorsport (510-839-9376). He is very knowledgeable and would be happy to talk to you. Martin Guerra (chief tech) drives the base model every day and you can catch him at that number also (option 3). Energy consumption would be significant at 65 and I would bet range would be down around 30 miles.
On this U-tube video Martin says the SepEx motor gets 70MPH and 32 miles range at that speed fully tested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tuudtiw2qw&feature=related (I'm sure that's a "no wind" condition. They did not get to do as much testing on the AC model as mine is the first and it rained for days until just before Martin had to leave for Dallas and I had asked them to have him bring it when he came. There's a second video that Huddler did at the same time you might be interested in.
ChuckJ
Chuck:
With all due respect, the easiest thing for me to do is to simply ask you, an owner, a few questions about the bike you chose to post about on this forum rather than speaking to somebody trying to sell me a bike. I don't see what the scare is in trying to verify a manufacturer's claimed performance figures. I guess I'll just have to be patient though to (hopefully) see verification of these figures once more of these are out there or until you gain the confidence to put the hammer down. :)
I'm a HUGE EV advocate, but I would like to see more accountability on the part of the manufacturers when posting performance claims. There is an education process that needs to occur for the general public to understand what all of this EV terminology means, and it is certainly no help when the manufacturers publish numbers that simply do not add up.
For instance... in Martin's You Tube video, he claims the bike can be recharged in 1h15mins to 1hr30mins. Well... that sure looks like a standard 10A charge cord to me, which means it's pulling no more than 12A out of a typical wall outlet at 120V and with a battery pack of 3.4kWh capacity - that's a 3.5 to 4 hour charge! Do they supply a "fast charger" with the bike that runs at higher voltage or something?
Designer:
In your last paragraph you have hit on a soft spot. They have chargers at EMS that do what Martin says but unfortunately the Chinese manufacturer has not held up his side of the bargain to deliver the promised chargers that they were planning on putting in the machines.
They intended to put a speed charger in the bike, but figured out that the cells would not charge evenly and eventually they would hurt the batteries. That's why the site says you need a BMS to keep the battery warranty. Their strategy was to carry the speed charger and have an off-board BMS. They released a couple of bikes without BMS and sure enough trouble. They have an experimental pseudo BMS on mine and have set up it to work in combination with the AC controller to control the low end and high end. There are two chargers that work at less than half the planned amps total and thus it takes more than the planned BMS and much longer than the speed charger. And it doesn't charge all the cells to the same voltage as a true BMS does. It charges them all, but turns off as soon as the first couple reach a max set voltage. Indicated voltage might be 79.5 volts at this point. To get all of the cells up, I have to unplug the charger, let it rest, then plug it back in. When they are all up to the max set voltage I have 81.5 Volts indicated. Obviously that's not a production solution but it will work for me until I get my BMS.
They are working both with the manufacturer and alternative charger configurations. In the mean time I'm told they are not releasing any more vehicles (and I hear that's more than 30 assembled and otherwise ready to go) to ensure they don't get a bunch of dissatisfied customers. I really don't know the prognosis on this, but they are still on the hook to provide me my BMS when it is finalized.
That's a long, involved answer and I'm sure I've missed some facts, but it's the best I know.
ChuckJ
Hi designer,
what LiFePO4 batteries have you dealt with in the past?
have you got a link?
the only time i see more than the 3.3x vpc at no load on my cells is when they're straight off charge and have a capacitive surface charge.
when i load mine up they sag well below 3.3vpc, though they are low rate TS cells.
Its a good thing they stopped production to sort out a bms.
They will be the first ev bike manufaacturer *ever* to include a factory bms with their EV.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Matt:
Right you are, sir! Went back and checked some datasheets to find 3.4V float and 3.2V nominal. I guess I was hoping to give the GPR-S the benefit of the doubt with the higher nominal figure. This is fantastic though - thanks for calling it like it is... let's sift through all the erroneous claims (mine included) to get to the truth!
Chuck:
Thanks for your continued patience and quick response to my questions!
On the issue of the charger, I still don't understand how a BMS is going to help you pull more current from a wall outlet unless they've asked you to use a 220V circuit or have a higher current circuit put into your garage or something. There's the issue of whether the batteries can take more juice (which I suspect they can) and it's a whole other issue of where that juice is coming from...
One more question... is there a 17 digit VIN tag on your bike? Is there a label that reads: "This Vehicle meets all applicable Federal Motor Vehcile Safety Requirements at the date of manufacture." or something to that effect? Just trying to determine if it's street legal or "street legal", you know? ;)
BTW - Doesn't the Vectrix offer a fairly sophisticated on-board BMS and CAN controlled smart charger?
Designer:
I really don't know if the BMS they use at the shop is 110 or 220 or 110 with a larger than 15A fuse. I think you are going to have to wait for a definitive answer on how long the charge takes until after they settle on a speed and BMS charger. It's just an open question since the original manufacture hasn't delivered and may not ever deliver. I don't know enough about the Vectrix to answer your question there.
The sticker does say "This Vehicle meets all applicable Federal Motor Vehcile Safety Requirements at the date of manufacture." and then has the VIN below it. Texas is tough on that kind of thing and it passed both the inspection and registration. They also checked the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) web site listing for approved DOT manufacturers.
BTW I just checked the voltage after resting over night. It indicates 77.7 volts or 3.885 volts per battery. I'm not sure if that means anything. Is there an official way to determine "resting" voltage?
ChuckJ
PS. Are you a member / familiar with the site "El Moto.net"? If not you might want to try it also. It's a very friendly site with several great technically excellent folks.
Hi Chuck - would you mind listing the first three digits or your VIN (or sending them me via a PM?). I'm just interested to see the WMI (world manufacturer indicator) for this bike.
Thanks!
John H.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
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