GPR-S

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ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Designer:
I was in the middle of editing this and got cut out. Here's the rest.

I really don't know if the BMS they use at the shop is 110 or 220 or 110 with a larger than 15A fuse. I think you are going to have to wait for a definitive answer on how long the charge takes until after they settle on a speed and BMS charger. It's just an open question since the original manufacture hasn't delivered and may not ever deliver. I don't know enough about the Vectrix to answer your question there.

The sticker does say "This Vehicle meets all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Requirements at the date of manufacture." and then has the VIN below it. Texas is tough on that kind of thing and it passed both the inspection and registration. They also checked the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) web site listing for approved DOT manufacturers. Thunderstruck Motors is a partner of EMS and offers "kits" one of which I assume is my configuration (Hot AC-15 yes Lifepo4, 50 ah, 72 volts 50 80 mph $9500) which I assume are not NHTSA approved. They are partners with EMS and actually installed the electronics in my bike. They have technical experts which participate in another site you may be familiar with; El Moto.net. Are you a member / familiar with that site? If not you might want to try it also. It's a very friendly site with several great technically excellent folks. I think the_omnichanic works at Thunderstruck and did part of the integration on my bike. They are technically excellent with these things and hold several NEDRA race records shown here:http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/records.htm. Todd Kollins record is:CV/H E-Boxer ,72 volts
Owner:ElectricMotor Sports
Driver: Todd Kollin 11.73 56.26 Kick Gas Festival
Barona,Calif.
October 12, 2008
That's found here:http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html
I think I may have said 58MPH before, sorry I my memory was slightly off. That's with the SepEx motor and I think Thunder sky batteries. That should give you an idea of the acceleration, although I assume the AC would be slightly faster. I say that with a little tongue in cheek as they may have turned up the gains on that bike, not worrying about longevity. That's another thing to talk to Todd Kollin about.

BTW I just checked the voltage after resting over night. It indicates 77.7 volts or 3.885 volts per battery. I'm not sure if that means anything. Is there an official way to determine "resting" voltage?

ChuckJ

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

John:
The first three are:1E9 but you need to use 1E9/456 to get the data base to pull up the correct registration at NHTSA: :http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/manufacture/

Note the license:
LICENSE1.jpg

ChuckJ

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Designer:
You got my curiosity up about the Vectrix and I found this thread on this site: "I recently got stranded after only four days of leaving the scooter unused, when I had to use my car to move some equipment for a few days. Charged the bike after use Wednesday night, left it plugged in Thursday-Sunday, when I took it out for a 20-mile round trip. I noticed right away that it dropped the first bar before I left my own block, and that it lacked the usual "zip" that I have come to love. It ran out of power after about 17 miles, whereas I can usually count on 30-40 miles from a full charge........" Arlo

I'm assuming that this was not highway at 65MPH from the write-up. If that were the case, I'd say the range of a Vectrix is considerably shorter than a GPR-S. Have you checked into the Vectrix's range at different conditions? Now you have my curiosity up to do a range test after the weather warms up.

ChuckJ

designer
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Re: GPR-S

Yes, clearly Vectrix have some issues to sort out, yet they've been designing that product for over 10 years now with some fairly strong partners (GP Batteries, Parker-Hannifin, and others). You must also keep in mind that they have 100s of their scooters out in the market now, so you're bound to see a some issues like this surface. By comparison, how many GPR-S bikes are in the hands of customers? Given the Vectrix issues you've mentioned, I am nervous about the GPR-S having no BMS or appropriate charger, and the fact that they've released their first AC bike relatively untested to a customer. That said... the GPR-S should certainly have a leg up in the range department as the Vectrix uses NiMH battery chemistry.

I'm glad to see that Electric Motorsports have a WMI code and seem to be quite aware of the requirements for road legality. It also sounds like they are aware of the electronics issues as well and are working on sorting that out. I will check out ElMoto, but I had trouble registering as their "image verification" wasn't working properly.

I would LOVE to see a nicely documented range and top speed test on your bike (with pictures)! As I mentioned before, I'm simply wanting to cut through the hype and see if the claims made in those YouTube videos are substantiated or just another marketing type trying to make a sale...

BTW - Garmin makes some nice little handheld GPS units that would allow you to track distance traveled, average speed, maximum speed, etc... as speedometers and odometers are also suspect to being a bit optimistic... (not as bad as the marketing guys though!)

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Designer:
How far do you have to travel (with margin), or is this an academic interest?

Chuck

designer
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Re: GPR-S

Chuck:

This is more than just academic. I have a 10 mile commute to the office - so 20 mile round-trip for me, at an average speed of probably 35mph on the backroads, although the freeway is an option as well - but only if the bike can sustain 65 mph. This seems to be well within the capabilities of this machine, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see a proper test documented by a customer. As you so clearly pointed out with your reference to the Vectrix, sometimes reality does not align with expectations. The Vectrix originally claimed a 60 mile range when the product was announced. I believe most of their new ads and literature now claim "35-55 miles".

reikiman
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Re: GPR-S

I'm glad to see that Electric Motorsports have a WMI code and seem to be quite aware of the requirements for road legality. It also sounds like they are aware of the electronics issues as well and are working on sorting that out.

I've been a customer of Electric Motorsports since 2002 ... It's fair to have questions about who they are and so forth, because there is a share of fly-by-night operators out there. EMS Is not one of those. When I first met Todd they were importing EVT 4000 and EVT 168 ... They've been building custom electric motorcycles for 6+ years. And as noted above they work closely with Thunderstruck Motors.

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra To

designer
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Re: GPR-S

David:

Thanks for the vote of confidence on EMS. However, I'll remain a skeptic until I see a review where range and top speed are properly tested...

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Designer:
Sorry I took so long to respond. Thanks for the info, it's helpfull to know what you're looking for. I'll pass any data that I think will help.

Chuck

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Designer (and other interested persons):

Below are the results of my first range test for the 20-battery AC motor GPR-S (GPR-S vehicles are also available in a 72 volt [23 battery?] version for those who need more range and / speed). This vehicle currently does not have a true BMS (they are backordered) and therefore the batteries were not optimally topped off. The controller is also intentionally set at a higher than required voltage cutback level (27 Vs 20%) to ensure protection of the batteries (slightly limiting range). That said, those who wish more range should probably consider adding more batteries rather than pushing the cutback level lower as the batteries will last longer.

Environmental Conditions:

GPRs_range_env_cond0001.jpg

Course:
The course (shown below) comprised of leaving a housing area (~1.5 miles) to a test area (~38.6 miles) and returning for a total of 66.97 kilometers or 41.61 statute miles as measured by a “Velocitek GPS. The trip odometer was also set which measured 40.1 miles by comparison. The dark square track area represents multiple trips around the same course. Note there is one stray straight line. That did not come from me falling asleep from boredom and going cross-country. It was caused by a GPS glitch where sometimes the GPS looses link for a second or two and then picks up where it left off. That messed up the average speed calculations as the data shows that leg was 793 km/hr. Also messing up the speed / time calculations were two stops in the housing area for friends who wanted to socialize. Speeds were at the posted speed limits, as traffic would allow. Accelerations demand more power / energy consumption so they were also counted. There were 66 slow 90 degree corners / stops that required accelerations. The accelerations were all at a reasonable, keep up with traffic “g” level, except for one “maximum effort” acceleration from 0 to 45 MPH where I wanted to get ahead of an approaching car. I think there were more starts and stops than most people would experience, but it's good to be conservative. At the “S” area of the course there is about a 75-foot drop to a low area and then a climb out to the end of the “S” area.
GPR-S_range2.jpg

Results:
The Spyglass has several parameters, one of which is BDI (Battery Discharge Indicator). The vehicle began the course with the BDI indicating 100%. It ended the course with the BDI indicating 27%. The draft manual says not to go below 20%, but the controller’s settable speed limitation to conserve battery comes in before that on mine at ~28%. Clearly there are a lot of factors that determine range. For the conditions shown above, my 20-cell bike showed 41.6 miles for this test and could vary from my guess would be 35-50 miles depending on speed, terrain, number and degree of accelerations, rider weight, etc. It probably could stretch to 60 miles if there were very few starts and stops as they take considerable power, but I like a conservative test. Anyone desiring more range should consider one of the other two motor options or additional batteries. A friend of mine (who also monitors this forum) is getting an AC version with I think 23 batteries. It will be interesting to see the added benefits (maybe 15% - [57 miles?]). Anyone desiring an AC vehicle with ranges longer than that will require additional batteries. EMS would have to determine if that version would be available. The Spyglass also has a motor temperature parameter shown. Limits for this motor / controller combination are 160degrees C. The controller automatically begins to limit power to the motor at 145 degrees C according to the folks who integrated the electronics into the machine. The maximum motor temperature for the run was 70 degrees C.

Hope this helps.

ChuckJ

designer
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Re: GPR-S

Chuck,

Thanks for the information from this range test! This makes the performance that much more "real" to me. Looks like your average speed would have been somewhere around 25 to 30 mph? I'd still like to see the manufacturer's top speed claim substantiated. Thanks, again and keep 'em coming!

Happy Holidays, too!

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Designer:
"Average" is in my opinion misleading because of the large number of stops. Slightly less than half of the "circuit" (defined as 39 of the 41.6 total miles traveled) was done at 35 and slightly more than half was done at 45 MPH (minus the stops). The other 3 miles was was getting in and out of the housing area at 25 MPH with several stops.

The web site says 35/60 miles (power/economy) with a motor 1/2 the HP and the cutback / cutoff criteria for 20% BDI not 27:% (draft operator's manual requirement vs. BDI which was intentionally set high for my bike). If you account for the BDI difference, I guess you could get another few miles to maybe 56.16. Add to that 66 starts and stops, the 200 pound+ rider, 10 MPH wind, the full throttle acceleration to 45 MPH (from 0) and I'd say they were close enough.

That said, I did not do the test to validate their results. I did this as a conservative test for you to make an evaluation as to whether you could get away with a 20 battery version or need to go to a 23 battery version (my recommendation for you)- or you could look at a Volta coming out next year which has twice the battery capacity: http://www.evcusa.com/documents/RoadKing.pdf (I don't think I believe their acceleration specifications, or they won't be able to get your 65 MPH cruise desire).

Happy Holidays to you also.

Chuck

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

An update.
Electric Motorsport has solved their BMS supplier challenge and has integrated BMS boards installed in their ETEK GPR-S bikes. I'm looking forward to getting mine installed (although my pseudo BMS is working just fine so far).

ChuckJ

TheSnark
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Re: GPR-S

Just adding my two cents' worth... I'm also a GPR-S owner, and got the same bike as Chuck except that I got the SepEx motor mated with the Sevcon Powerpak controller, and mine is white rather than grey. There are videos posted on the Internet of an identical bike being demonstrated by the Electric Motorsports guys on Huddler. My review mainly piggybacks off Chuck's review, but it can be found here:

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?p=2740

Mik
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Re: GPR-S

BTW - Doesn't the Vectrix offer a fairly sophisticated on-board BMS and CAN controlled smart charger?

The BMS does not seem to be very sophisticated. Only two sub-strings of 27 cells are monitored within the 102 cell string.

There is no mechanism to balance cells other than slow over-charging, which seems to be standard for Ni based battery types. (Charge slowly at a rate which allows the already full cells to turn the excess energy into heat whilst the other cells catch up. This cannot be done with other battery chemistries, except for flooded lead-acid batteries).
More details there: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6277
and there: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6853

There is indeed an on-board charger which works quite well when the cells are all good and the perceived state of charge coincides with the actual state of charge of the battery. It seems to be the same charger all over the world, just a different plug fitted.
It charges with either 10, 3 or 1.5 amp depending on what the BMS finds appropriate, it gets it right most of the time. It continues to turn 0.5A (at 110V or 240V) into heat when the actual charging has finished for as long as it stays plugged in; so it gets hot.
12 temp sensors in the battery pack are used to slow down or stop the charger if the cells get too hot. Two loud and powerful impellers suck air through the batteries to cool them during charging, if they need it or not.

It's all programmable (by Vectrix staff only) through the CAN plug in the glove box.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

BretA
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Re: GPR-S

I am now officially either the 3rd or 4th internet posting owner of a Electric Motorsport GPR-S. My configuration is nearly identical to ChuckJ's except that I have a 72vlt system vrs his 60vlt and its blue.

My initial report can be found on the elmoto post and I will post more data here once Ive got some time to do some riding and measurements.

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?p=2791#post2791

BretA

Mik
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Re: GPR-S

Apparently the GPR-S is now available with BMS.

See this post: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5780-xm5000li-vs-vectrix-seems-nobrainer-what-am-i-missing#comment-34700

I have also been to visit Todd at Electric Motorsports recently. The GPR-S is a nice light sports bike. By the way he has six of those units available for sale right now. He is putting BMS in all the GPR-S he ships now.

It's really time you GPR-S owners ask the moderators to create a GPR-S category in the "Large Scooters and Motorcycles" section of the forum, otherwise it becomes harder to find for people wanting to read reports about them. As soon as no-one posts for a few hours the GPR-S post drops off the page due to other, unrelated but more recent postings.

Having it's own category will prevent that.

Thanks for all the detailed reports, keep it up, please!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Iccarus
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Re: GPR-S

The GPR-s sounds very interesting. After buying a XM 3500li I would want to test drive one before buying though. Sounds like it has "The right stuff"

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

Iccarus
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Re: GPR-S

Does anyone know if they have a belt drive in the works?

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S

Lccarus:
I've asked Todd Kollin (main fuse) about drive belts. He likes them, but I don't think they have any near term plans to do that as they are more expensive and don't permit flexibility of changing ratios as easily. Most of the noise in the AC version comes from the motor. It sounds like a turbine. That said, at cruising speeds it's very pleasant and you can maintain speed by listening to the doppler.

ChuckJ

Iccarus
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Re: GPR-S

Thanks Chuck, I've been hoping to hear more chatter about the bike here but you covered everything pretty well already. Thanks I hope if anyone gets one in the Chicagoland area they'll do some posting here. I'd love to test drive one.

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

ChuckJ
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Re: GPR-S WINs TTXGP

If you all didn't catch the news, a 96 volt, AC-15 powered GPR-S (mine is 60V) version of the GPR-S won the "Open Class" at the first electric TT race at the Isle of Man. Catch it here: http://www.egrandprix.com/index_nav.php?page=ttxgp2009results

ChuckJ

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