Here is my little list of observations from old / new firmware
Total mileage 1020ish
Mileage with old firmware - 920
Mileage with new firmware - 100
Charger Delay
I dont use it as my Vectrix is on a timer switch which starts at midnight and shuts off at 7am. However if I am doing a charge straight after riding (sometimes I run it down in the morning and need to charge for afternoon) - I do use the right brake 30minute default if its been ridden hard to give it a cooldown. Outside temp is not high enough to be a problem anyway at the moment.
Range difference
Before the firmware update, I had run it down to 0, with 1 bar on the bike, and then chickened out. There was no battery light at this point, and there was no real loss in power. Now after the firmware update, when it gets down to around 4-5 bars, and with about 5 miles or so left, it still does 60ish but wont accelerate hard to get there - I guess this is in to stop unexpected range drop from people going from sedate ride to hard ride. The range gage is more accurate now, when it has 3 miles or so to go, the red battery light comes on and the bike slowly gets worse on top speed and accelaration until its in limp mode (around 25-30mph tops)
Overall performance
For the first two full charges after the update, the performance was rubbish, it was almost like if it was a petrol engine, one of the cylinders were not firing kind of feel. I was warned about this, I am guessing it was the system firguring out what my actual battery life and things were.
Charge time
Longer. I ran it down to 2 bars this morning, put it on charge at 12 and it was still charging at 5pm (just going to EC as I walked in). It used to take around 4 hours but I have known it to take 5-6 hours before anyway. Have not witnessed the initial and every 8 hoours of riding longer equilisation charge as that was done overnight - not sure what the display would show or what the bike actually does in this state
These are the things I have noticed - any more?
That would have been after a BALPOR followed by a partial recharge. If you had fully charged until 17/17 you would have seen the BALPOR (as normally happens with your Vectrix).
It is because weak cells still have several Ah capacity accessible at low discharge rates. The SW tries to get some more range out of the pack without allowing high current draws which would damage weak cells.
After discharging the Vectux cells individually to 1.1V at 20A, I typically get another 6Ah at a much lower current out of them for reconditioning.
By limiting the discharge rate for the whole string, the new SW might try to achieve a crude reconditioning effect.
But what is the actual range at which this happens?
In my opinion the SW can only really protect the weak cells by reducing the available range.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I will reset the trip counter this over this week and see what I get now, I know what I used to get on my average day to day - will post up results at the end of the week.
I'm afraid that people that are considering to buy the Vectrix consider all this too complex...
Well it is more of a pet than a simple bike. There is a lot of learning and interactions to be done. But I think something new and interactive, with software upgrades and in future possible customizations, is far more interesting than a bit of metal that needs constant external attention (a mechanic) and a lot of money to run.
I agree, its a nice comprimise between the imported and more unreliable bikes out there, its reliable and interesting to see how it all works.
I am not annoyed by these small "problems", so far its all been good. More curious as to why how and such.
That's also my opinion, but huge sells require simpler processes.
Hmmm, well I am a complete user. While I am very capable mechanically and electronically I choose to use the Vectrix like an appliance. Switch it on, go, switch it off. It has to be effortless for me or I don't want it :)
I use mine for a daily 25 mile each way commute, routinely covering 1,000 miles per month - I've had the bike since late July and have just clocked up 3,760 miles by this last trip.
The Vectrix gets a full charge overnight, and at the end of the 25 mile journey (17 miles are on dual carriageway at a minimum of 50mph, the rest are town riding) the bike arrives with between 5 and 6 bars of charge left. I've calculated that I get around 2.1 miles per bar on average during this commute. At work the bike gets another full charge during the day in readiness for its journey home. So, all in all, it is routinely getting charged at 5 bars.
Range and speed have remained constant after the first few journeys. I have had the machine down to 2 bars and the battery light on. But only a couple of times and when trying to see what the true range is likely to be.
Today, however, I have had the new software installed (10.7?) and have made my first journey home - very scary it was too. I left work with 14 bars remaining which should have been plenty to get me home and leave a few for me to run down locally to get it ready for its first full charge on the new software. But within 6 miles of home the battery light came on with 5 bars left, and then the remaining bars all disappeared by the time I was 2 miles from home. The last 2 miles was running on zero bars, but performance remained reasonable, letting me reach 40mph without any difficulty.
As I type this the Vectrix is taking its first charge on the new software - the temperature outside is near 10C and forecast to drop to 8C - quite reasonable for charging the bike. I used the 30-minute delay, the plenum fans did not come on so the batteries were clearly cold enough to start charging, but the timer still waits it out! The last time I looked the Vectrix had been charging for 26 minutes and had two bars of charge showing!
I am looking forward to the journey to work tomorrow - according to the instruction sheet I have to run the charge down till the battery light comes on again before recharging. So I'll have to leave early and scoot around the block for a while to drain it down - I'll probably be a bit brutal with the speed on the A2 also :D
I have had my software upgrade for about a week. Twice now after about 4 separate trips with intervening charges I have gotten a "CANBUS" error combined with the wrench indicator. Both times the message went away after a few minutes of continued riding and I never had a decrease in performance or noticed any other symptom. Once the error popped up late in the ride and the second time earlier. All the new features of the upgrade seem to be working correctly otherwise. Anyone else seen this behavior? Any ideas?
same here with canbus message plus wrench which both disappeared after a few seconds. No apparent performance impact. It seems a glitch in the new firmware. Microsoft would sell it as a feature :-)
From the sound of this thread maybe Microsoft wrote the software.....
..... Sorry that can't be right because Uncle Billy would call each update a new version and you would have to upgrade from 2006 to 2007 to 2008 ... and pay for each upgrades/fixes.
Grandpa Chas S.
I hope not!! The last thing I need is a blue screen of death while doing 60mph down the highway!
Hello all,
I have got the new firmware about 2 weeks ago. This was in a response to try and fix a failed battery charger. I still had over half a charge when I got the update. I immedialtely noticed a reduction in performance but to be fair was told to do 2 full discharges (until the charge light came on). I completed the last 1 tonight. Tomorrow I'll see how the performance is.
My gut feeling is that Vectrix have had some issues with batteries and they are trying to protect them a little more. This may affect ultimate range. We will see - because most weeks I commute between Monaco and Nice airport - there are no outlets there - or at least I could not find any - so I have to make sure I have enough power to get back to Monaco. If I take it easy enough I normally arrive back In Monaco with about 3-4 bars left. (around 56 KM)
Generally I love the machine - several others have bought machines in Monaco after seeing mine and discussing. Don't at all mind the small bugs - the after sales service is excellent - this is far more important.
Would love to encourage Vectrix to get an owners site up where we can all contribute.
Comment from my Vectrix supplier in the UK - the CanbuS error is known, it is bogus and not to be alarmed about, the intention is to fix it in the next release of the software. That is good enough for me as it does not actually impact the rideability or safety of the machine.
A real CanbuS fault will manifest itself as a failure in the machine, in all liklihood the safetys will kick in and the Vectrix will come to a halt. That could happen at any time with any electronic or mechanical device so I would say that there is no need for undue concern.
I have the new software - of course - and the range has not lessened other than it would during this cold time of year in the UK. The range is slightly down on the colder days when there is abundant frost. On the milder days the range comes back - as indicated by the remaining bars at the end of my very specific commute route. Coldest days result in 3 bars left, milder days I'm seeing 4 and 5 bars after the journey - in Summer and Autumn I was seeing 5 and 6 bars! It is all very consistent and predictable.
What I do not like with the new software is how it moderates the acceleration as the battery voltage drops through the journey. At the end of my 25 miles (17 of which are at 50mph+) the acceleration is probably 2/3rds of what it is when at full charge. I can understand the reasons why but as the overall range has not improved I cannot see the point! Whatever they are trying to do in software clearly, for me, does not actually deliver the goods!
I had my second CANBUS fault boxing day, was coming to a stop on my parents gravel driveway and there was a slight jolt, and there it was. Machine stayed live and active - so you you said, not too bothered and will leave until next firmware update to fix.
I think (this is a guess) that the point is to stop unpredictable range drops towards the end - reduce acceleration curve towards the end of the charge, the more predictable the range will be. Annoys me when I go to overtake someone at the higher speed end however as you dont know what you are going to get until its too late...
A couple of thoughts after my second full discharge after firmware update. I pushed it hard today, full speed uphill, or as fast as safety would permit. (Somewhat more aggressively than I have since the second day ever, when I got my first speeding ticket in 10 years.) :-)
It was awesome 'til about 5 bars remaining, when I noticed diminished power, though top speed wasn't limited 'til 4 bars or so. Total trip was about 26 miles. Topped out at ~50 mph at 4 bars, ~40 mph at 3 bars, ~30 mph at 2 bars, ~15 mph at 1 bar. I kept going 'til zero, felt like a real traffic hazard doing 15 mph on a 40 mph street.
What is really needed on the Vectrix is hazard lights. If you are expected to ride 'til you limp along once a month, it's seems critical to be able to signal other drivers that you're not actually an idiot, or retarded, or riding a broken vehicle, (with ELECTRIC written right on it, no less!) but actually acknowledge that you know what you're doing is hazardous and would like them to just go around you.
Anyone from Vectrix - how 'bout if there's a magic combination that turns the directionals into hazard blinkers, say, switching the high-beam switch on while holding the trigger? I would certainly feel much safer in "crawl mode" with hazard lights.
Arlo
Hello,
I'm a Portuguese rider, that have ride my vectrix for 8 months.
I have 7000km and made in one day 310km. All was going perfect to the last firmware update.
I'm very sad with it, because the overall range as decreased, until now full throttle in the same circuit i could make around 45km, now i can only make 37km. Worst than that, when i get to around 5/17 bars left, i start to lose power on the bike, and this is what upset's me more, because until now i only felt that around 2/17, and for me it means i ride my bike with power limitations almost half of my day. This last update really let me down, it solved the heating problems but gave me other new ones.
I can't understand why with the power limitation i still have a loss in range. By logic it should be higher not lower.
Cheers
Nergal
They probably increased the value of the lowest permitted voltage. It used to be 108V.
The higher this value, the less risk of reverse charging of some cells.
I believe it is very important to get consistent, predictable throttle response on a bike. "Fleeing forward" is something I use a lot and it can be lifesaving.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
to be limited in power for almost half of the range it's concerning
Nergal
This ever expanding library of firmware versions - how does Vectix send them out?
Is it on an SD card, or do u have to connect the bike to a PC or something?
Plus if you upgrade to a newer 10.7 say,could you go back to an older 10.6 version if u dont like the features of the upgrade??
Thanks to anyone who can explain it?
I'm on about my 5th recharge since the upgrade. I very reliably got 40 miles range and twice got a few yards under 50 miles.
Well, my range is now just a sad 30 miles if I'm really, really careful. Before, I got 30 miles if I hammered it.
My top speed is reduced slightly and that wonderful exponential acceleration is now gone, if fact the nearer 60mph I go, the acceleration drops off rapidly.
I feel like ripping off the "High performance" stickers from the bike now, because it just isn't anymore.
As I have just been made redundant, my old 26 mile commute may be replaced with a 32 mile commute, which would leave me with an expensive and utterly useless commuter tool.
I was disappointed enough that no one got anywhere near the 68 mile range first quoted. Now the range has been reduced so much that I will probably have to go back to my ICE motorcycle for work! I just hope, if I take the job, that I can charge at work, otherwise I shall be looking to sell, with sadness.
What have you done Vectrix?!
Imagine if you took your "high performance" car/bike in for a service and it came back with reduced performance AND a smaller fuel tank. I mean, 50 miles if I'm careful to 30 miles if I'm careful is just outrageous.
Anyone else getting much more than 30m in range? The reduced performance I guess I'll live with, but that huge percentage of reduced range is highly disappointing.
Simon
Simon,
I am sorry to hear about your job. It looks like we share a lot in common. I too am quite unhappy about the reduced performance and milage I can get out of the October '08 Vectrix firmware. My real hope is that Vectrix revisits their decision to saveguard the batteries at this extent once they get nmore experience with battery (and fuse) wear and tear. There is another possibility that the reduced milage is actually down to the cold weather we had here in the UK. I kind of had the feeling that as soon the battery temp is kept well around 20's celsius performance and milage is better. Anyone from warmer parts of this world can comment on range for Oct'08 firmware?
Norman
I only got my bike in December with the October firmware already installed so I have no comparison to prior vesions. I live in a pretty hilly part of Alabama. My commute to work is 30 miles roundtrip but includes a few pretty steep hills. Roundtrip I have over 3000ft of elevation gain. I mostly drive between 40-45mph with a couple of miles at 50mph all country roads. It includes several miles of city as well with probably 10 stop light each way. I get through my commmute reliably with about 3-5miles to spare. Not mauch but I typically have about 3 bars left after 30miles. Every so often I ride it down to near empty. The battery light comes on at about 32-33 miles and I can go another 2 miles. So I figure 30 miles a safe distance with 35 miles if I stretch it. The farthest I have gone on mine is 38 miles but that was driving more in the 35-40mph range. If I did not have the hils to content with I think I could get close to 40miles. I have noticed a significant loss in renage when the bike is left garaged for several days befoer use. I would say that 3-5 days loose at least 10% and a week to 2 weeks at least 20% in range. Also, I noticed considerably better raneg and performance in temperatures above 55-60F. I am 6'0 175 lbs.
If the Oct 08 software update was necessary because of damage caused to the cells by the behavior of the previous software versions, then the bikes with pre-existing cell damage will have more range and power restrictions than new ones which were looked after properly from the start.
The "improved" Stock BMS cannot break the laws of physics: The range needs to be reduced to protect cells from reverse charging. The good cells need to be slowly over-charged to bring already damaged cells (with increased self discharge rate) back up to "full" every so often.
That means that the worse your battery was at the time that the software was updated, the poorer the performance will be. But from Vectrix Corp.' view it's good because you still crawl (with short trips) to the "End of Warranty Line", which maximizes investor returns!
They should give people a new battery as well as an improved software to look after it, at least those people who had the disappearing bars syndrome.
And insulate the pack against heat.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I just realised that this is not only due to NiMH self-discharge, but also due to the "constant on" state of the Vectrix motor controller.
Read the post on ES, where Fechter explains how to protect the main switch from arcing when a motor controller is connected to a battery.
I realised that what Fechter calls "precharging circuit" is most likely the same as the "Inrush Current Limiter" discussed on V and used by Vectrix techs to re-connect the front and rear battery to each other.
And, more importantly, I now understand that the Vectrix battery is in a "constant on" state when the large blue Andersons connector is closed - that means "always on" unless it is in pieces for repair!
So I did the maths on it, which I had neglected earlier on, although I did report that the current through the inrush current limiter is initially about 50mA, and it falls to about 7mA and then stays there. Inexperienced as I am, I assumed that that is insignificant, but I was wrong! Check out the maths below! (The measured values are relatively inaccurate, I did not take detailed notes. I think the actual currents I measured through my "Inrush Current Limiter" with my uncalibrated DMM were 60mA initially and 8mA after 30sec. The results should however be within 10% of the real value).
9.3mA x 1hr = 0.0093Ah per hour.
---> x 24hrs = 0.223Ah per day.
---> x 7 days = 1.562Ah per week.
---> x 4.33 weeks = 6.77Ah per month.
In other words, more than 22% of the Vectrix battery capacity disappears through the motor controller per month! ( 30Ah / 6.77Ah = 22.57% )
Any self discharge of the NiMH cells will be in addition to this.
(I use 0.0093A as the likely current for when the blue connector is closed without the 2460Ω resistor I used for the "Inrush Current Limiter" (ICL), not the 0.008A measured with the resistor, because:
140V / 0.008A = 17500Ω (apparent total resistance of the circuit to which the battery is connected)
---> 17500Ω - 2460Ω = 15040Ω (the apparent resistance in series with the 2460Ω of the ICL)
---> 140V / 15040Ω = 0.0093A ( constant current without the ICL )
Some of this current leakage will go through this voltage divider, which is also always on, and taps into the voltage between cells 17+ 18 and cells 75 + 76 of the 102 cell string:
I have not yet calculated the current through this part of the stock Vectrix electronics. Maybe someone can do this for the rest of us, please?
Between GND and V1 : 37V with a full battery. Between GND and V2 : 102.75V .
How much imbalance will this cause between sub-strings 1-27, 28-75, and 76-102?
I believe it might be very significant after long periods of inactivity.
I can calculate what happens through the M-BMS, though:
When I leave my M-BMS turned on to measure the entire battery voltage, there will be about 140V / 30kΩ = 4.67mA flowing, about half as much again as the already present leakage of the Stock-BMS, or about 11% of (nominal) battery capacity per month.
But, unlike the Stock BMS, the M-BMS can easily be turned off!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Do you think that the cells would self discharge more evenly if there is a constant drain on them as opposed to being completely disconnected?
Regards,
Peter
-----------------------------------------------------------
Central Scotland
Yes and no!
"Yes" because if all cells drain, then they will sooner or later all be empty and therefore balanced!
"No", because until the cell with the highest self discharge rate is empty, there will probably be the same number of Ah difference between cells,just that they are all lower.
"No" also because I have a suspicion that the voltage divider causes the first 27 cells to get drained more than cells 28 to 75, and that cells 76-102 don't get drained through the voltage divider. If that is correct, then it increases imbalance systematically! I have not had time to look up the "Surface mount resistor codes", make a diagram and try to do the maths using Ohm's law. But one day I (or someone else) will...and then we'll know!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Not as bad as it sounds, I got a decent redundancy payout and I have just been shortlisted to join a training program to drive a 6,000 horse power diesel electric intercity 125 train! Now that's some electromotive power! Just got to pass the psychometric exams, the tough medical, the suitability interview, etc, etc. Easy LOL! Well, I suppose they can't have any idiot driving a 100 ton vehicle with 400 passengers.
My estimated mileage on the readout has gone up already along with real range too. 35 miles now and I did manage 5 miles the other day on no bars and 0 miles on the Range-ometer.
Simon
Yesterday I had my first 40+ miles ride here in the UK. Battery temperature was 15Celsius to begin with at the end it was about 22 with exterior temeratures at about 13 celsius. All of course with a fully freshly charged battery. I did urban/semi rural roads only, no motorways and was driving in an economical way (no donats :-) ) . Terrain is flat and I maintained speeds around 30-50 mph.
Low bat light came on at 41miles. Up to then I had quite good performance and could easily reach 45mph. At the moment the bat light went on performance was reduced. I crawled home with almost 44 miles.
Definetely the Oct'08 firmware reduces range slightly but on the other side it much better estimates your range and I had the feeling that towards the end of the range it maintained better performance than the old firmware.
I am now looking forward to slkightly warmer weather and further range !!!
Norman
I don't believe the range is going to get any better with warmer weather. The battery was in it's optimal temperature band during your ride. With a hotter battery you might get the ability to draw higher peak amps, but that is not what you want for good range results!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
After waiting for about 2 weeks for the main fuse to arrive I just got my Vectrix back. The millage didn't seem to change but I honestly I don't recall. It's seems about right.
Over all I didn't get any paperwork or recommendations as to how I should ride or what to do with the bike after the Firmware upgrade. I am going to try and drive around the block until the battery is very low. The dealership said they did a full charge but when I turned on the bike there was only one bar over half charge. I was still able to make it home, but I was taking it slow (under 35) to make sure I didn't get stranded.
I did make the stupid mistake of driving 35 k/h before realizing that I was not reading the mph numbers... I felt dumb... again.
Over all, I am not thrilled by the 60 mph performance issues that people are mentioning. Much of my commute is on the highway. On one of the highways traffic will often be averaging 65MPH. I usually have a full battery when I leave home and leave the office, but the idea of losing the ability to accelerate quickly is horrible. When I need to merge from the right lane, cross 4 lanes of Highway traffic to exit in the left lane I NEED all the acceleration I can get. I got the Vectrix because of the almost motorcycle like performance... not because I wanted scooter performance. I am hoping that the results won't be as bad as what everyone is saying... but I am doubtful.
-i
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