My overall observation is that the XM-5000Li (2009) is a major improvement (and I'm impressed) over the XM-3500Li (2008)
The following link is to the "My XM-5000li Experience" discussion thread which has a wealth of information from owners of the XM-5000Li. http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5668-my-xm5000li-experience
The overall size appears to be the same. There is a significant increase in power. The parts have a better fit (quality), also, the parts seem to be of a better material. (I noticed it first on the kick stand)
I was able to go much faster (over 55MPH) than what I could on the XM-3500Li (~43 MPH) with far better acceleration. On the XM-3500Li, I almost always kept the throttle on full. With the XM-5000Li, I have to back-off the throttle to remain at the same speed as the traffic (45 and 50 MPH zones). I noticed that when I accelerate from a stop I am ahead of the cars for about 0.15 miles. On the XM-3500Li it was only ~0.05. The top speed in Economy mode is around 30 MPH. The XM-3500Li top speed in Economy mode is around 20 - 22 KPH.
The ampere reading (using an Ideal Model 61-768) was 100.4 (at full acceleration.) The XM-3500Li ampere reading was 78.4 (at full acceleration.)
The cornering stability is much better. The stability in the XM-3500Li is good, however, The lower center of gravity was more obvious than I expected and I'm really impressed.
The speedometer/odometer registers MPH/miles. Please see the "My XM-5000li Experience" discussion thread for speedometer accuracy. (To be posted will be real world distances per charge.) I traveled a known distance of 10.0 miles, the odometer display was approximately 10.07 miles traveled . The XM-3500Li registers KPH/kilometers. The XM-3500Li odometer display was 19.8 kilometers for the same 10.0 mile trip.
At first I thought I would prefer the "Economy Mode" switch on the right grip (like it on the XM-3500Li). However, after riding the XM-5000Li more than 60 miles, I doubt that I will ever use "Economy Mode". The throttle is smoother and I am able to control the power better at low speeds than I was able to with the XM-3500Li. The Economy Mode switch is located under the locked compartment (in front of the seat.)
The headlights and brake/tail lights are much brighter. The following link shows pictures of the difference in lighting. NOTE: The brake/tail light on the XM-3500Li is an 1157 bulb. The original burned out. http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5668-my-xm5000li-experience#comment-34404 The headlights are "HS1 35w/35w". The headlights on the XM3500Li are "HS1 18w/18w". There are three brake/tail lights which are 21w/5w (The socket accepts an 1157.) The XM-3500Li has one brake/tail 21w/5w light. The turn signal lights are 10w (#282) on both. The dash lights are 3w (similar to 194) on both.
Dash gauges have significantly better backlighting (vastly improved). Please see above link to pictures.
I like the feel of the switches (more solid feel than the XM-3500Li).
Both yellow buttons sound horn. On the XM-3500Li only the left button sounded the horn.
There is a warning sound (beep) when the turn signal is active (again I'm impressed). The XM-3500Li did not have this feature.
The DC converter appears to be about 30 percent larger and of better quality than the DC converter on the XM-3500Li
There are 21 TS-LFP60AHA batteries, the cables between batteries are larger gauge (~2 gauge). The XM-3500Li has 20 TS-LFP40AHA batteries, the cables between batteries are ~8 gauge.
The front 6 batteries are covered with a rubberish mat (nice). Also at the very front of the battery compartment (behind the front wheel) the louvered panel is covered.
The battery charger is a TSL60-15 (75.0/15A DC) Suitable for 21 cells Charger for lithium battery Input: AC 110V". The XM-3500Li battery charger is a TSL60-10 (72.6/10A DC) Suitable for 20 cells Charger for lithium battery Input: AC 110V".
The battery compartment is total of 25 inches Long by 8.25 inches wide. There are two sections. The front is 10.5 inches long by 8.25 inches wide by 9 inches deep. The back is 14.5 inches long by 8.25 inches wide by 8.5 inches deep. The XM-3500Li battery compartment is 26 inches long by 8 inches wide by 8 inches deep.
The mirrors are larger (measurements are approximate) 5.25 inches wide by 3.5 tall and have (what I consider) a proper protective arm cover. The XM-3500Li mirrors are 4 inches wide by 3.5 tall and have what looks like a sparkplug protective cap to cover where the mirrors attaches.
The front orange side reflectors (front fender) have a diameter of 2.25 inches. The rear red side reflectors (rear license plate) have a diameter of 2.25 inches. The XM-3500Li has only the rear orange side reflectors (rear license plate) having a diameter of 2.25 inches.
The front brakes on both the XM-5000Li and the XM-3500Li are mounted correctly. The rear brake pad alignment on the XM-5000Li had ~2 mm of the pad is not touching the disc. (I understand from others that this is not true in all cases.) The rear brake pad alignment on the XM-3500Li had ~6 mm of the pad is not touching the disc.
The XM-5000Li does not have ABS for the brakes. The XM-3500Li does have ABS for the brakes
The rear brake line is braided (nice).
The rear shocks are adjustable ( I have not adjusted them yet). I did not notice an adjustment on the XM-3500Li.
The motor has a serial number which makes it easier to title in some states. The XM-3500Li did not have a serial number on the motor.
Motor circuit breaker in better location (not using storage space). This makes it much easier gain access to the batteries.
The key cover on the XM-5000Li appears to be more secure than the XM-3500Li. However, I was able to turn the key cover by pressing on it with my finger and turning.
The approximate under seat storage is 15 inches long by 12 inches wide by 6 inches deep for both. (Note: it is not an exact rectangular space, the measurements are my best guess.)
The XM-5000Li owner's manual much better written than the XM3500Li owner's manual:
-
Parts in pictures have correct references
Battery Gauge and Text match (In the XM-3500Li manual the pictures in a few places did not match the text.)
Assembly instructions are relevant for mirror. No instructions for wind shield or throttle.
Basic Schematic (page 16) and Electrical Parts layout (page 17)
Page 5, charging plug identified, but not economy switch
The tool pouch (and owner’s manual) is larger (9 inches wide by 6.5 inches tall), and has a sleeve which is about the size for an insurance card (3.5 inches wide by 2.25 inches tall). The XM-3500Li tool pouch measures 9 inches wide by 4.5 inches tall
Pallet and steel crate was of better construction. I had to lift the XM5000Li (with help) out of the crate. It would have been less effort if the bottom front of the crate was bolted instead of welded. I was able to roll the XM-3500Li out the front of the crate (which has bolts in the front at the bottom.)
Enhancements I would like:
-
1. Wiring harness to measure/charge individual batteries
2. Mechanism to charge a single battery (or adjacent group of batteries)
3. Easier access to lights (especially head lights)
4. XM5000Li owner’s manual (in easier to understand English, I would volunteer to help do this) with the following additonal information
- a. Controller information (e.g. diagnostic information, breakers, reset buttons, etc.)
b. Motor information (e.g. voltage, amperage, maximum RPMs, efficiency)
c. Economy mode switch information
d. Battery gauge/cutoff information
e. Bulbs identified (e.g. headlights (x 2) HS1 35w/35w, etc.)
f. Minimum/Maximum recommended operating temperature (e.g. 25 degrees to 115 degrees)
g. VIN locations
h. Basic instructions on how to replace the light bulbs
i. Basic instructions on how to replace the batteries.
j. Basic instructions on how to adjust the rear shocks.
k. Basic instructions on the clock.
5. Trip meter in addition to the odometer. This could indicate miles since the last charge. I use my car's trip meter to indicate miles since the last refuel.
Additional devices I purchased:
1. Individual Cell Charger (e.g. Triton2 from ElectroFly)
2. 1” convex mirrors (not as neccessary as what is needed on the XM-3500Li.)
3. Timer for battery charger (e.g. set for 4 hours or whatever time is needed to complete a full charge) This helps eliminate the overcharge condition (repetitive switching on and off) while the charge is unattended.
You forgot this important item:
6. Battery management system that clamps the charging voltage of each cell at 3.7 volts and prevents over-discharge by interrupting motor operation when any cell falls below 2.5 volts.
You are correct! I consider the Battery Management System (BMS) very important. I don't know how I missed it in the original post (I must have been very tired). The batteries on both the XM-5000Li and the XM-3500Li would be much easier to maintain with a BMS. At this time I am using the Triton2 charger to balance all the batteries. I do not go the full distance so that I do not drain any battery below the 2.5 limit.
Great post Henry! Many thanks.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Nice post. The XM-5000li sounds like a great upgrade.
I will not mince words about the switches on my XM-3500Li: they are miserable! I wonder if the turn signal switch from the 5000 would work on the 3500?
That was true on my XM-3500Li... for a few weeks. Then one day the right button started working too. I assume the connection to the right button was loose.
Maybe yours doesn't, but mine does! :-) It's a great safety feature, although I sometimes get funny looks from pedestrians.
Jeremy
Maybe we should push for all battery Packs to be at least "Cell-Monitoring Ready" or "Battery-Management Ready"?
As a minimum, wires from each cell would come out to a connector ... with a mating connector and loose pins supplied.
Also, all acceptable chargers should have at least one control input that can be used to "turn off" the charging current.
Without this much, our investment in a "2000-charge" battery pack is ... perhaps a fiction.
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
Well, I think you paid for a scooter with Lithium batteries and BMS, or am I confusing this with some other scooter that turned up, unannouncedly missing core components that had been promised? There are so many.....
Thats a pretty good push for a BMS, paying hard cash for it!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Mik - It was the first delivery of the XM-3500Li that had a promised BMS that didn't show up. After that they corrected the advertising. I was the one who announced no BMS and brought the issue to light. C'mon you really need to keep up with the times - the Vectrix isn't the ONLY bike out there. Oh yeah, and as for not getting what you paid for - it's a bit like a 0-50mph time of 6.8 seconds... (sorry, couldn't resist - please don't flame me - it was just a joke!)
Gary - I agree that a pre-installed wiring harness is a good compromise for the DIY'er. However, I'd be surprised if they did it. If they install a wiring harness for you they can hardly say "but don't use it or you'll void your warranty" - and they're not likely to want to let you plug just anything into that harness... Good idea though - and good luck. Glad to see the XM-5000Li has got good speed (and an accurate speedo!)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I had my head so deep in the Vectux battery pack, installing that wiring harness, that I could not keep up! HAHA! So now the Vectux is the only large scooter with NiMH battery and some individual cell management out there. Pretty sure about that! And Vectrix have updated their charging software to include both the pre-charging-cooling and the charging delay which I pioneered with the ABCool. But the maximum acceleration and range was apparently also reduced in that Oct 2008 software update.
But now the Vectux is up and running, for several weeks. I've even spend almost three days without trying out new modifications.....since frying my charger: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8786#p136057
So now I'm catching up and am wondering a bit if the XM5000Li was actually advertisd as a Lithium chemistry scooter without a BMS?
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Yes
I just noticed that the seat on the XM-5000Li (30") is approximately 1.5 inches lower than it is on the XM-3500Li (31.5"). It may not be an issue for most people, as for me, both feet now touch the ground without having to stretch.
Would you compare the width and comfort of the two seats, please?
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
The widths are the same ~15 inches (the very front of where the second rider would set), also the length is ~32.5 inches.
The comfort (to me) is about the same, however, the XM-5000Li has a grain (like the straps in a lawn chair) to it where as the XM-3500Li is smooth (like naugahyde).
The XM-5000Li does not have the 1.5 inch "extra padding" in the very front that the XM-3500Li has in the very front. (I remember thinking when I first received the XM-3500Li that I wished there was an optional seat which was 2 inches lower in the front.)
Henry, thanks for all the info on the 5000. I just finished my Goodrum/Fechter BMS and am waiting for the connectors to come. With my pack now balanced I'm getting about 10 more miles per charge.
Bill-
2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS
KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl
Way to go Bill - you finished the BMS! And a HUGE thank you for the range feedback - I knew it would improve performance but didn't know how much - 10 miles is a nice range boost!
Andy
Glad I could provide the information. Over the weekend I was able to get the XM-5000Li up to 58 MPH (GPS). I was on a downhill slope, however, the wind was about 10 - 15 MPH. The most I could get the XM-3500Li to was 43 MPH (GPS, flat, no wind). I could get the 24 battery version of the XM-3500Li to 53 MPH (GPS, flat, no wind).
I would like to make the Goodrum/Fechter BMS. I have the 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS) circuit board (Revison 2.3) from TPpacks. I am having some difficulty understanding the needed parts and quantities. I went to http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=990#p129461 for some additional information and found the discussion updating some of the parts. Is http://www.mouser.com a good source for these parts? I am not an electrical engineer, however, I am able solder parts to a circuit board.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for continuing your 5000Li blog. Good stuff!
Yes, Mouser is good, Andy and I both use them.
There is a full parts list, with the Mouser parts numbers and quantities, on the Tpacks website, right where one orders the board. This list can be "imported" (or copy-and-paste) to a Mouser order or "project", to make an easy "automatic" (but can be modified) order for all the parts. Very convenient.
Where will you put the BMS?
I usually order a few extra of most parts.
That BMS, with the 0.5 amp shunt resistor (6.8 ohms?), is good (in my opinion) for the 5000 IF one does NOT use the charger current-shutoff circuitry, which seems to confuse the "smart" TS charger. So, I recommend the shunt-limiting and the Lo-Voltage warning functions only. If you build the whole thing, you can always not use the current-shutoff function.
On the 5000, one needs to add a relay to the LVC output, if used for more than a warning LED, since the controller-inhibit on the 5000 is connected to the 6-amp brake-lights circuit.
Henry, do you use a PakTrakr with a "serial" cable for a PC?
I have written a program to display the PakTrakr data, in real-time or from logs. Looks pretty good, and usable as is. Tested on XP and some testing on Vista.
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
I did not mentally connect that "BOM" on the 24-Channel BOM listing was the parts list, thanks. The Mouser "import" made the process real easy. I noticed that the parts list has "KSA931 or BD136 PNP power transistor" Would it be better to get the BD136? What is the part number for the BD136 (as I see six different numbers for the ones that are in stock)?
Once I determine that all the batteries are fine (and I build the BMS), I will connect it to the XM-5000Li. I have one battery that is weaker than the others. (It maybe a warranty issue. e.g. all batteries charge to 3.85 except one which charges to 3.4.) Anyway I want to make sure there are no warranty issues before I attach any BMS.
I have a BMS on the XM-3500Li designed by eped (again thanks eped!) that I attach when charging the batteries and detach when the charge is finished. Initially I did not have any problems. However once a problem developed (weak battery) then all batteries seems to be affected. Once the weak batteries were replaced, I built and starting using the BMS (from eped), all the batteries problems were gone!
I mostly did not understand the
What 0.5 amp shunt resistor? Charger current-shutoff circuitry? Should I add a relay to the LVC? If so how?
I do not have a PakTrakr. I am not sure what to order and I really don't want to have to make multiple orders to get all the components needed. I'm sure it is obvious to the engineering types, however, it is a little confusing to me.
Thanks for your help.
Hi Henry:
You are welcome on the BMS. One note is I think you can use that same BMS on the 5000 if that helps your situation. Quick questions though;
- what is the model number of charger on the 3500 and the 5000?
- on the 3500, you mentioned using 24 cells; I assume you made the BMS for 24 cells?
Thanks
Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?
The KSA931 and BD136 appear to be interchangeable. The first BMS I built had the KSA931, the last two have BD136.
There's a row of large resistors (6.8 ohm?) along one side of the board - these are the 'shunt' resistors that 'absorb' some of the charge current when that cell is full. The charge control portion of the circuit is on the 'left' before the first channel.
I'd be happy to prepare a list, but I don't want to be accused of contributing to the geek habit. :)
Andy
Hi Eped,
I was thinking of using your BMS between the XM-5000Li and the XM-3500Li. I thought I read that the Goodman BMS has a low voltage warning/cut off, which I thought would be a nice addition. However, maybe what I really need to do is use your BMS and get a PakTrakr.
I have three chargers
1. TSL60-15 (for the 21 cell, XM-5000Li)
2. TSL72-15 (for the 24 cell, XM-3500Li)
3. TSL60-15 (replacement for the 20 cell, XM-3500Li, which is no longer used.) I was thinking of somehow mounting it to the XM-5000Li so I could use it as an emergency (on the road) charger. I don't know if it will be reliable enough to be transported and remain usable. The TSL60-10 (which came with the XM-3500Li) stopped working after it tipped over (long story).
Yes, I built the your BMS to work with 24 cells. The LEDs for the four cells which are not part of the main circuit light up well before the other 20 LEDs. I'm sure the four batteries would have needed to be replaced several times over by now without the BMS. Currently (another long story), I have four extra TS-LFP40AHA (in a pack) from Elite Power Solutions that have always had the BMS attached during charging.
Please contribute to the geek habit. :-)
Henry,
Cell balancing is good and will get you the longest battery life and best performance, but low voltage protection is the most important single factor in how long our LiFePO4 cells stay alive. And it needs to be cell-level low voltage protection - the pack-level protection already programmed into our controllers is not good enough.
Controller low voltage protection is based on the total pack voltage. The controller has no idea how happy each individual cell is. Our controllers cut off when the pack discharges to 52.5V (2.5V per cell). The critical assumption with this type of monitoring is that the cells in the pack are all equal and have all discharged to 2.5V together. That doesn't happen very often in the real world.
Here's an end of charge view from my 5000. The bike started with a fully balanced pack fresh from the charger. I hit the 'pulsing' of the controller low voltage cutoff 1/8 mile from home and 'nursed' the bike back to the garage. The PakTrakr and data logger were running, but there was no BMS on the bike.
Pack voltage just reached 52.5 volts but no lower. I got off the throttle immediagely and used just enough power to keep rolling the last 1000 feet to the garage. It didn't matter - the damage was already done. The low cell on PakTrakr monitor dropped to 1.78V. The next two low cells reached 2.26V. About eight others dipped below 2.5V.
Pack level low voltage cutoff is absolutely not enough to keep from damaging cells.
The Goodrum BMS has low voltage detection - set by default at 2.1V.
The PakTrakr is a battery monitor and has a 'learning fuel gauge' but it's not a management system. I bought one only because I wanted to collect data.
It appears that eped's excellent BMS is a great help for cell balancing - and that's very necessary for getting max performance from out packs, and to help keep cells from overcharging.
But the most critical single device - and the first that should be installed to maximize battery life - is cell-level low voltage protection.
Andy
Andy, Great post, I finished my F/G BMS and have started testing it. Now I'm really glad I decided to do this. I drove 37mi to the beach yesterday and found a plugin at the base of a streetlight in front of the ocean grill(vero Beach). Spent the day there as the bike charged. Life is good! Grocery shopping is a breeze with my givi450. I've been worried about LV damage with my 24cell 3500. I haven't been very kind to the lowest cells I guess. I ran it to LVC several times before I realized what I was doing. I guess the best thing is to just stop early, but when it comes to push or ride it's hard to choose push. I put two more cells in for 26cells and I went from 47mph to 51mph on flat ground low wind.Though I have to say it keeps that speed very well, full out you notice how the speed controller is like cruise control if there's a hill or a gust of wind it adds power and you keep the same speed. Henry how are you going so fast on 24cells are you sure its flat? I'm jealous. I charged the single cells with 2amp 3.7v chargers from voltphreaks.com (you have to take them out of series to do this, I think)Has anyone had any luck testing the BMS by hooking it up to a TS charger without the battery hooked up. This is what the instructions say to do but the charger won't start without the battery hooked up.
Bill-
2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS
KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl
Iccarus, that is interesting. How many amps are being used? I noticed that the reading was 80.4 amps (max, using an Ideal Model 61-768). I started out with 87.6 volts. The temperature was around 32 degrees (If I remember correctly). My weight is around 170 lbs. If I get a chance I will recheck using an amp meter and a GPS.
I thought this article was interesting and thought I would share. "MIT breakthrough promises lighter, fast-charging batteries"
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9129523&source=rss_topic66
Henry, I haven't hooked up an ampmeter yet so I don't know. I think I get it now. If you're not using a gps the speedo reads wrong. I've had mine up to 100km per hour with 26 cells. The gps reads 51mph@100kmph(62mph)indicated. After letting the charger go on and off for several hours after both green lights were on, my pack voltage was 95v!(never saw this until my pack was fully balanced)But I could only do 48mph/GPS(54mph indicated) The weird thing is, my friends 3500 speedometer reads correct more or less...I guess he just got lucky. It seems the error increases with speed. 32 degrees BRRRR when it's cold it seems to take awhile before you can get full speed, I guess the batteries have to warm up. I might drive to the coast today to watch the shuttle launch, but not sure if I want to drive back at night. I love this machine(despite it's many flaws) and can't wait to see future generations.
Bill-
2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS
KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl
Unless you can hit 88mph, you aren't going to see the shuttle launch today, it went up last night.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Does that mean he already has a Mr Fusion? Can I get one too? Please?
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
If you blow the 3500's tires up really hard, the speedometer will be closer to correct.
The 5000 reads in miles and mph. With hard tires it is very close to correct.
One 5000 owner recorded a GPS trace (see www.EveryTrail.com ) that shows over 60 mph at about the crest of a rise in the road.
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
HA HA the jokes on you, the shot was delayed it went off at 7:43 PM on sunday night. I watched it from the beach while my bike charged... after dining at mulligans in vero beach... the penalty a 40 mi drive home in the dark with nothing but citrus trees,cattle,gators and rattles snakes between me and home. To say nothing of the trucks wizzing by on I60, but it was very satisfying. EV's Rule!!!
PS Gary I'll try that. I know my friend put extra air in his tires as we were having a little speed competition. Maby that explains the discrepancy.
2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS
KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl
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