XM-5000Li and XM-3500Li Comparison (My Experiences)

HA HA the jokes on you, the shot was delayed it went off at 7:43 PM on sunday night.

I'm not sure how the joke is on me. You posted on Monday that you were gonna go out to see the launch, which we both agree was on Sunday night. Unless your post was delayed by a day, I figured you'd missed the launch, while I watched it on live TV. Is our forum software lying about your posting date?

Yeah, I see what you mean. I don't know how that happened. Must be some kind of timewarp!...Or I edited it on monday.
That had me confused for a second too. It's tough checking out the bikinis AND electrical outlets at the same time but someone has to do it... Seriously though it really is tough to do both HA! HA!(Nelson Muntz)

Guys,Guys... everyone knows you can't really do time travel using a Mr. Fusion garbage recycler. It requires 28 lifepo4 batteries and a flux capacitor...come on! Henry, what are you up to I saw you had a problem with your circuit breaker. I'm hoping for more feedback on the 5000. I'm running 28 cells now in my 3500 and so far no smoke. I'm going to try a 20mile full speed run(54mph) when I go back in about a month. I already did this with 24cells sucessfully.

Slap a new one in there tighten her down and forget about it. Probably just poor quality control at the factory like so many other things.

OR,, it could be that when running full tilt, heavy load , the vibrations from bouncing on cracks and pot holes atc. if that contact opens even a little the arc would burn a bad spot in the contacts and increase the resistance at that point. each opening would increase the heat . It lookes like the contacts were burned away! MoToR breakers are calculated to 80% at full load so say 80A load is 100Abreaker 100A load is about 125A breaker ! Set the new breaker horizontily and the bounce will be minamised .
to answer your question as to the electronics, Breakers have a magnetic trigger to sense a direct short in like 100th. of a sec. However this looks like a slow burn at the contacts. LaTeR

Henry,
Is your "burnt" 5000Li circuit breaker white or tan (as it appears to be in your picture)?
What markings are on it?

Same questions for your "new" (replacement) breaker.

And, same questions for your 3500Li's breaker.

Thanks.

Can I ask you guys a question? Who is the best supplier of batteries for the 3500?
Thanks

Can I ask you guys a question? Who is the best supplier of batteries for the 3500?
Thanks

Elite power solutions and electric motorsport are both selling them at the same price right now I think. I've had good luck with elite. Elite used to be cheaper but they raised their prices.

Can I ask you guys a question? Who is the best supplier of batteries for the 3500?
Thanks

I've bought from Elite as well - good folks. Also check with Jungle Motors in the great 'North Wet'- they've recently had lower prices than Elite.

Slap a new one in there tighten her down and forget about it. Probably just poor quality control at the factory like so many other things.

I've got about 50 hard miles on my replacement breaker and no false alarms yet. Bill - you might have called this on the variable QA/QC.

I still think we should be using a DC rated breaker, though. We can get by with this AC breaker as long as it comes from the 'better' side of the QA stream, but a 100A DC breaker might actually open correctly in the unlikely event of a water landing... I mean unlikely event of an actual short in the main power loop. ;)

Andy, My experimenting finally caught up with me. You know how there is 3 wires attached to the - pole on the pack. I thought that I could identify one as the charge and one as the the power to the controller of course the small green one being for the dc/dc coverter right? oops! I separated the two black wires and hooked them up one at a time to see which one powered the motor. Satisfied that one powered the motor and one didn't I hooked the one that powered the motor to the 28th cell neg, the other one and the green one to the 24th cell neg. I figured now I could charge with only one iso switch. Never got that far. When I turned the iso switch to activate the last 4 cells I got smoke. The two black wires melted together and I think I fried the controller. I took it apart and it looks fine inside. I'm not sure why that happened but those two wires both go strait to the controller. I'm hoping maybe I can fix it but I might need a new controller. I guess I should have left well enough alone!...oh well live and learn

This is why you got into electric vehicles, right? The excitement .. the learning .. exploring the unknown .. the showers of sparks as you vaporize tools and connectors and wires ...

I'm not sure why that happened but those two wires both go strait to the controller.

If the two wires go straight to the same connector then when you flipped that switch you created a dead short across four cells (12.8-16 volts).

It's possible the controller is okay. If I'm picturing this right the short was outside the controller and perhaps it wasn't affected.

This is why you got into electric vehicles, right? The excitement .. the learning .. exploring the unknown .. the showers of sparks as you vaporize tools and connectors and wires ...

Thanks for making me laugh, as I'm not speaking to myself right now...wait I guess I am, saying things like,YOU STUPID IDIOT but anyway. At the time I didn't know they both ended up in the same place or I wouldn't have done this. What is strange is that one of them would run the motor while the other wouldn't. If they're connected together...WTF. I thought they were isolated somehow. On closer inspection I noticed that the two black wires in the smaller gage group in the controller started melting also. Yeah I see now just what happened and I thought the same thing that maybe I lucked out but I don't think so. Thanks for the reply, I'm gonna go cry in my beer any ideas? anybody?(besides grow a brain)

Bill-

Did you want to add the new cells "above" the Pack+ ... the thick wire that (usually) goes to the main power circuit breaker?

Sounds like you tried to add them on the ground side?

Most likely the controller, motor, DC-to-DC converter, the whole 12v system, lights, etc. all share a common ground. So, it is usually less disruptive if one adds to the "top" of the Pack.

But, why three wires on the Pack-minus?
The stock 5000LI only has 2 wires, one "thin", for the 12v system and charger ground, and one much "thicker" that goes to the controller. Of course, mine now has one more wire, since I added the cell-monitoring system.

In the Vectrix there is also a very thin cable in addition to the thick main cable at the negative end of the 102 cell string.

I is part of the battery voltage monitoring system: (I hope this schematic is correct...)

The cable in your XM could of course be something different.

Regarding the common negative ground you assume: I would be very careful with this. It probably is not connected that way.

But, why three wires on the Pack-minus?
The stock 5000LI only has 2 wires, one "thin", for the 12v system and charger ground, and one much "thicker" that goes to the controller. Of course, mine now has one more wire, since I added the cell-monitoring system.

If you look more carfully you will notice that that one thick wire is actually two wires running through a sleeve.(at least on the 3500li) I had posted my itentions and you were the only one that replied. You simply said "yes" to my question. (don't worry I don't blame you at all) I was looking for some feedback. What I thought was that one of those wires was the charging negative and the other was the negative to the controller. So I thought then I could hook up the charge neg to the 24thcell and thus charge the 24 with the TSL and use the 4cell charger on the remaining 4 cells like I have been doing but without the battery isolation switches.(the wire powering the controller/motor going to the 28thcell) I think the chargers I have are isolated output as I did the test you suggested and got high resistance between the negatives with the chargers on but not hooked up. Of course I never even got that far. If I had known that those two wires were for all practical purposes really one wire trust me I would have known better. I got a little hastey as I tend to do, I should have done more tracing and testing. I still think my idea could work and now I have time to really think it through. I'm doing this because when I get somewhere to charge I want to just plug in and not flip switches or disconnect cables to use multiple chargers. Of course if the scooter did what they claimed it did I wouldn't have to do any of this.

On the above or below thing. I just go from the last neg on the 20th cell to the pos on the next four and from that neg to the pos on the next four. They sit in about the same place that the 5000 top cells do. If you did it the other way you would need longer wires. I'll probably go back to isolating cells 25-28 with switches and leave well enough alone.

PS-Gary the common ground is after the dc/dc converter it has nothing to do with how the batteries are added. You could attach that small green wire to the first set of 4cell and you wouldn't need a converter but it would keerp pulling that group out of balance.

Sorry if I mislead you. I had assumed you would be adding cells to the top end.

When adding to the bottom end, the smaller details get much more important, as you found out. In the same "sleeve" could mean that both wires go to the same place, or just disappear into the wiring harness. Yours would seem to have another connection elsewhere in the wiring.

When just pulling some of the wires off, and adding more cells, the circuit breaker (and fuses) might not protect the new cells.

The 12v and "common" ground usually go into the controller and would be used to "wake it up" (ignition ON makes the 12v), and also could be used to activate the brake's motor-shutoff.

Yes, in general it is possible that the 12v system's ground is not connected to Pack-minus, but it is also quite possible that it IS connected.

Well I have full power right at the controller +&- everything works but the throttle nary a grunt from the motor. I don't know what else to do.

SOS

Is this "almost-working" mode with 28 cells, or back to your previously-working 24 cells?

Measure the voltage from pack-minus (that goes into the controller) and the 12v line (with ignition ON, of course).

Measure the voltages on the 3 throttle "pot" wires and "roll on" some throttle as you do it. Two wires should be independent of throttle position.

Let me know what you find.

I'm back at 24 right now. I just took the controller off though. I think I'll call it a night for now but I'll try that in the AM. Thanks, I'm not sure what color the pot wires are but I'll go see what I can see. I'm pretty sure the votlage between the pack neg and the 12v line will be whatever the dc/dc conv. is puting out, right. About 12 something. I guess the controller doesn't even have to be attached for me to do the throttle test...right? Is that it I may have damaged the throttle pot?

I did the throttle test and got nothing on all three wires. I'm not sure I got the right three but they are the only set of three coming from that direction. They're red black and white and when they go through the coupling the white wire becomes green so then it's red black and green going into the controller. The black wire in the controller, where it attaches to the board did show signes of over heating. I believe this is the wire that goes to the throttle too. Let me know what you think. I did the test with the key on but no controller, does the pot have to be hooked up to the controller to be tested though? Is it powered by the 12v system otherwise I might have to hook the controller back up right?

Thanks for the help and support, Bill

Most likely the throttle is powered by the controller.
Sleep well!

I just had the greatest day. I called kelly controllers today and the owner Steve said to come on over to his house. He's about 10 miles from me. We sat in his livingroom talked controllers for at least an hour. He gave me a doner to try on my scooter to see if I liked it. I hooked it up to see if it would work. It didn't. I called steve and he actually came over to my house and helped me see what was wrong. It was just that I had power to the controller BEFORE I woke it up with 24v.(this particular unit needs at least 24v to wake up) The startup has to be in the right order I guess. I couldn't ride with it yet because I didn't mount it yet but it seems to be working great. I don't know if it will be faster or slower than the old one but I'll know soon. I'll be hooking up the regen in short order as well. WOOOHOOO sometimes stupid mistakes turn out ok. Steve has a thick Chinese accent and can be a little hard to understand at times but what a nice guy. Their controllers are very well engineered. Hopfully I'll have some good info soon. I'll start a new thread on regen when I have something.

The new phone books are here! The new phone books are here! Thing are going to happen for me now!

The Jerk-

Great difference in 2009 XM3500li,see http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6609-new-xm3500-sale-san-antonio

Hi Mountain, I have a few questions. Is there any way to enable regen braking on your controllers. Also my bikes are 2008 models but the motor seems to be all one piece. Also it is a six phase motor running as a three phase, correct? It seems to have wiring for six phase. Isn't it more efficient to run six phase? Do you have plans for regen brakes in the future?

REGEN is no problem on technology,you may check with Tracy's testing post on my early 2008 XM3000,but REGEN is nothing on such light weight scooter and bring more complicated on controllers,simple is reliable !

All XM3500li are 3 phase motor,6 phase motor have overheated problem,we gave it up since 2007.

The extra "phase connector" is just a spare one connected to the same 3 phases..