BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start during the ride - why not?

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AndY1
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BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start during the ride - why not?

I've done 50km yesterday, with my girlfriend at the back with 2 partial recharges, so I finished a ride with 9 bars left. It was a sunny day with 25+'C.

At the last 500meters of ride, the battery and temperature telltales lit up and BATHOT appeared.

Battery fans work, when I plug in for a recharge. Why won't they work and cool the battery when riding? BATHOT would never happen if the battery fans would work during the ride, when the batteries are above, let's say, 40 degrees Celsius?

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

When I accelerate hard a few times in a row (even only after 5 km or so), I can hear the fans blowing afterwards so maybe we have different software? I have the latest apparantly.

I never saw the Bathot light yet though..

"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment

Mik
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

When I accelerate hard a few times in a row (even only after 5 km or so), I can hear the fans blowing afterwards so maybe we have different software? I have the latest apparantly.

I never saw the Bathot light yet though..

That is the motor controller fan you are hearing.

You can identify it by it's stepwise slowing down.

The battery cooling impellers run only at one speed.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

That must be so.
Now that you mention it, it sounds different too..

"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Mik is absolutely right, i can feel the fans going to the tune of my accelerator, specially in hard uphill accelerating, they blow harder or softer according to my thrust. then stop after a while when i reach to a stand still.
Now that the weather here is between 25 and 30ºc i think that even thought these fans turn on more often, the bike seems to work better and seems to have a better range,i still have to demonstrate that doing some tests, but its funny how Camaleonic this bike is, its like humans, its mood depends on the day!

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

My battery is dead.

I did 12km from full charge in the morning and drove another 13km going from work (the battery should be cool, since it's 20'C) when I was suddenly greeted with loss of power. I stopped at the pizza place and plugged the bike in and with 10 bars left, there was only 130V in the battery and the battery temperature was 40'C.
//www.shrani.si/t/4/8y/1mn1xknD/18052009110.jpg)

After 40 minutes of charging, the battery temperature was still 39'C. My battery is seriously leaking energy.

I could easily do 50+km two weeks ago. I think I got the old battery, from the batch, that was recalled last year.

In any case; I can't drive my bike anymore :-( Let's see what my dealer can do, because he's 350km away.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Ok, this is really, really strange. I just went for a ride with 9 bars left. I could drive it like a bullet at speeds of 90-100km/h.

Now a question, but first an explanation:
The ride to the job in the morning, which consisted of 13km, went super fast with speeds of up to 100km/h, with my girlfriend at the back. When I left work, it was 29'C, I picked up my girlfriend in the city center and drove home through a stop and go traffic, with speeds no more than 50km/h, but constant acceleration and regen breaking.

Is it possible, that when batteries reach 40'C or does the motor have a temperature sensor, that a thermal protection kicks in and limits the Vectrix' power?

Mik
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Ok, this is really, really strange. I just went for a ride with 9 bars left. I could drive it like a bullet at speeds of 90-100km/h.

Now a question, but first an explanation:
The ride to the job in the morning, which consisted of 13km, went super fast with speeds of up to 100km/h, with my girlfriend at the back. When I left work, it was 29'C, I picked up my girlfriend in the city center and drove home through a stop and go traffic, with speeds no more than 50km/h, but constant acceleration and regen breaking.

Is it possible, that when batteries reach 40'C or does the motor have a temperature sensor, that a thermal protection kicks in and limits the Vectrix' power?

Yes, power delivery seems to be limited if the battery or other parts get too hot, at least with the old firmware you are running.

Do you park or charge in the sun?

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AndY1
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

No.
At home, I park and charge in an underground garage. It's 19'C there.
At work, I park in the shade, but it was 29'C in the afternoon and I picked up my girlfriend in the city center, but because the whole city was in a traffic jam at that hour, we drove stop&go all the time with regen braking and speeding up to the 40km/h. At that speed, no airflow is present, and that could have heated up motor, batteries(40'C), motor controller or something I'm not aware of, that reduced the maximum output, so we could only go as fast as 50km/h(10 bars left).
We stopped at the pizza place, where I asked for a charge (40 minute charge) and we ordered some coffee and some drinks. After that we drove home ok and I parked in an underground garage.
In the evening(20'C), I decided to go for a test drive, with the same top on charge from the pizza place. With 9 bars left, I could still go as fast as 100km/h. In fact, I could accelerate and drive so fast, that the motor controller's fan was spinning at max. speed and that batteries fans turned on with no BATHOT telltale.
I really don't know, why those two fans spun up yesterday (which is good), but not on 3 occasions, where I got a BATHOT message.

As a software developer, I would really like to see the software source on that bike, to see how it's written.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Another BATHOT after 16km of fast riding. Starting battery temperature was 30'C, ambient 23'C.

But why won't the battery fans start spinning, when driving and when batteries get hot? They do spin when charging.

Also, the motor heatsink is very hot to touch after 16km. So hot, I can't hold my hand onto it for more than 2 seconds.

Also, it's very hard to reach 100km/h. From 90km/h - 100km/h it goes very slowly. I don't think I even reach 102km/h limiter as I used to. I used to get to 100km/h very fast and then acceleration being stopped by the limiter. Now, I can't even reach 100km/h without opening the throttle fully.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Another BATHOT after 16km of fast riding. Starting battery temperature was 30'C, ambient 23'C.

But why won't the battery fans start spinning, when driving and when batteries get hot? They do spin when charging.

Also, the motor heatsink is very hot to touch after 16km. So hot, I can't hold my hand onto it for more than 2 seconds.

Did the battery cooling impellers ever run during riding on your Vectrix?

Did they ever run since the last firmware update (if you ever had one)?

It is normal for the motor housing to get hot, I measured over 70degC by infrared thermometer.

I also had difficulties (once only) with poor acceleration after very hard riding in 40degC temperatures.
But he battery cooling impellers were running and within minutes the power was normal again.

The Battery Cooling Impellers (BCIs) also cool part of the motor controller board. It appears that some of the exhausted air from both BCIs is blown out at the sides of the battery cover and onto the inside of the motor controller board. The air then circles back up through the batteries and through the BCIs again.

Once only I got a CAPHOT error message during repeated hard acceleration and regen deceleration. It disappeared quickly. The capacitors probably absorb the enormous amounts of energy released during regen braking.

The motor controller fan (MCF) might not be sufficient to cool the MC if the BCIs are not running.

You could try if avoiding regen braking helps, and watch out for short lived CAPHOT error messages after hard regen.

All in all it sounds to me like you have a software problem. The BCIs should come on during riding.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

I agree.

I still have the pre-October software and the battery cooling fans didn't come on during riding, even when BATHOT message appears.

It very rarely does come on, but most of the time, it does not.

And I don't really understand, how many different versions of the software we have, because if we (you and me) have the same software, it should come on.

AndY1
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Does anyone have ANY idea, why the battery cooling fans are not turning on prior to reaching BATHOT?

What conditions have to be met to turn them on. As a software developer, I just can't find a common denominator, why it doesn't at my bike, but sometimes (3 times so far) it did. If the battery temperature sensor triggers BATHOT at 50'C, why doesn't it trigger to turn on battery cooling fans at, let's say, 40'C?

I must reiterate, that so far, 3 times it did turn on the battery cooling fans, but 4 times it did not and I was greeted with BATHOT.

Is it possible, that only one cell is overheating and triggering BATHOT, but software turns on the battery cooling fans only when an average of 12 battery sensors reach, let's say, 40'C?

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

At a guess, I would say intermittant temperature sensor fault - the only way to be sure is with the Vectrix official software, which nobody has :(

Im sure that Mik has some ideads for a wacky way of testing it however in pure Vectux style!! ;)

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

I thought so as well, but even if it's a sensor fault and the battery is not truly that hot, if the sensor is reporting 50'C, the battery cooling fans should start running anyway.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

My battery is deteriorating rapidly. I did a full overnight charge and in the morning, when I wanted to go to work - 11km, acceleratin was weak.
Now I went off work to a cinema, 5km away, acceleration was very weak. I pgugged in to charge and at 13 battery bars left, voltage was only 131V, but the battery temperature was 30 degrees with ambient at 20.
I will be taking my bike for service at the end of June, but I'm not sure, the battery will last that long.
I'm hoping for a new battery and the latest software.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Hi Andy, that sounds bad. My Battery had the same symptoms, getting hot after 25km Distanca at 60-70 Km/h.
While i recharged it the temperature rose to 39°C with about 20°C outside. It was in November. When I
dorve a first/last time in spring (April) i lost power after 10 km. At charging, the battery rised its
temperature at 50% Chargestatus from 22°C to 40°C within 20 Minutes. At this moment the Bathot went on
and i parked the bike outside to cool down. Now its on repair and waiting for a battery although they
didn´t find something via the diagnostics (manny calls where necessary to tell the dealer that the
battery seems to be defect...)

Greetings Mike

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Yeah, it's bad. Very bad. I did a full recharge at the cinema (I went to see the Star Trek movie) and barely made it home.

I have even beaten Mik with his dissapearing bars sindrome. Mik, I bet you can't beat getting to BALPOR (loosing all battery bars) from 15/17 full charge and even without red battery telltale showing up.

This is when I started full recharge at the cinema:
//www.shrani.si/t/3x/Lh/tDv2hMc/28052009126.jpg)

I had 16km done on a daily trip meter:

This is coming home (from 15/17 bars to 0 with another 16km done from a full recharge):
//www.shrani.si/t/1j/Ja/23OAzuit/28052009127.jpg)

I have never, in my life, seen a battery deteriorate in such a way, so fast. That one battery cooling fan, that wasn't working, when the bike was new, completely fried it's battery pack and set it on a collision course with it's doom. What one fan, that costs, probably 10 EUR, can do... destroy a 2000 EUR battery pack.

Edit: I think I will have no problem convincing the dealer to replace the battery. I can't even do 15km anymore.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

rig a switch to manually turn on the fans when you start riding and charging..that might work

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

1. I wouldn't want to void my warranty in any way
2. My battery is past the point of no return. I don't dare charging it, 'cause all it's good for now is, a heater.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Poor you. You have had no luck with your V. Matey, get it fixed under warranty fast, before you can't. Not that I have to tell you that, but I really hope you're more fortunate when it's fixed.

Simon

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Yeah, it's bad. Very bad.

..........
Edit: I think I will have no problem convincing the dealer to replace the battery. I can't even do 15km anymore.

Better don't tell him about your recent trip up the mountain!

How come there was no problem then?

Dead cells don't usually work sometimes.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Why not? Why should I hide? It's perfectly normal bike use.
I was driving no more than 30km/h uphill and maybe that's the only thing my battery can put out anymore.

Like my used LiPo batteries in my RC helicopter. After 200 cycles, they hardly have any power left. Maybe for hovering, but that's it. Internal resistance increases so much, that the batteries only put out heat, instead of power.

I did a 40 minute recharge from 0 in the evening. I could do 90km/h for 1km, but then it dropped to 40-50km/h really fast.
Also, at the start of charging, the battery Voltage was 133V, that's why there was not red battery telltale and/or BUSVLT, but after 40 minutes of recharge at 3 bars full (from 0), the battery went to 147V, which is not normal.
Also, when I came home from this short test ride and I opened up the trunk, I smelled a burning smell from where you lift a trunk. I put my nose closer and it was coming above from where the battery cooling fans blow out.

My Vectrix is now parked in my underground garage and I will be taking it for repair at the mid-end of June.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Poor you. You have had no luck with your V. Matey, get it fixed under warranty fast, before you can't. Not that I have to tell you that, but I really hope you're more fortunate when it's fixed.

Thanx! I hope so as well. I think it's all coming from a series of events of one cooling fan not working and that battery pack heating up more that the other. What happens next is, until fixed, each battery pack had a different charge capacity. The one not being cooled, had less charge than the other and that emptied it faster than the other. Even after the fan was fixed, the initial damage was made and the problem only increased through time.

Or maybe I still had the old battery pack installed; the one, that was recalled in 2008.

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Why not? Why should I hide? It's perfectly normal bike use.
I was driving no more than 30km/h uphill and maybe that's the only thing my battery can put out anymore.

Like my used LiPo batteries in my RC helicopter. After 200 cycles, they hardly have any power left. Maybe for hovering, but that's it. Internal resistance increases so much, that the batteries only put out heat, instead of power.

I did a 40 minute recharge from 0 in the evening. I could do 90km/h for 1km, but then it dropped to 40-50km/h really fast.
Also, at the start of charging, the battery Voltage was 133V, that's why there was not red battery telltale and/or BUSVLT, but after 40 minutes of recharge at 3 bars full (from 0), the battery went to 147V, which is not normal.
Also, when I came home from this short test ride and I opened up the trunk, I smelled a burning smell from where you lift a trunk. I put my nose closer and it was coming above from where the battery cooling fans blow out.

I did not mean to say your mountain ride was abnormal usage, or that you should hide or anything like that. I meant that the performance of your Vectrix on the mountain was inconsistent with with the problems you otherwise experience with it. If you tell them you made it up that mountain, then they'll think you must have a fine battery!

I just do not believe that it is necessarily the battery as such that is causing your problems. The symptoms don't add up, and what you wrote today confirms it: Your Vectrix has a poor connection somewhere!

That introduces resistance, voltage drop with loss of power despite full battery, smoldering and a bad smell!

The battery might however be perfectly fine.

The smoldering could be happening at one of the three phase cables to the motor, on the motor controller board. It only gets really hot when you draw high amps, and then the connection gets worse each time.

It could also be from a bad connection within the battery. The cables connecting the modules to each other can loosen and then heat up. That was the problem behind the battery recall.
..........

A bit of maths regarding this:

Lets assume the current draw is about 120A during full acceleration.

Now lets introduce 0.5 Ohm resistance at a dodgy connection anywhere in the battery or on the way to the motor:

V/I=R ---> V=R*I ---> V = 0.5 Ohm * 120A = 60V ; That is the voltage drop across this bad connection.

Of course the electronics reduce power draw long before you get to this. If you continue to draw less power, like 30A to continue crawling along, then you get this:

Voltage drop = 0.5 * 30 = 15V ; The stock BMS interprets that as an empty battery and serves you a BALPOR for your efforts! Then, when you recharge, it tries to squeeze a full charge into a battery that is not at all empty! The poor connection somewhere does not matter too much during charging, because only 10A max have to get through it.

P = I^2 * R ---> P = 120*120*0.5 = 7200W ; That is the power generated and turned into heat at a 0.5 Ohm connection when 120A flow through it. It'll get very very hot!

P = I^2*R ---> P = 30A * 30A * 0.5 Ohm = 450W of heat generation when you are crawling along.

......

Of course, your battery might be damaged, but it might also be OK.

If a loose Inter-Module-Connector (IMC) is behind the resistance, heat and burning smell, then I would assume that the cell to which it is (poorly) connected would have suffered some heat damage.

The temp sensors in the battery are close to the middle of the modules, the IMC's are at the ends.

By the time a temp sensor gets heated by the heat generated 3 or 4 cells away, it will be too late for the cells which are more directly affected.

.............

You might also have a single bad cell, really bad cell, close to a temp sensor. If that cell has practically no charge, but resistance, then it will heat up big time when you draw high currents. Once it is hot, it might have even higher internal resistance.

Do NiMH cells fail as "Open" or "Closed" links in the series?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Thanx for the detailed info.

In any case, I will want a new battery. To much has happened to my battery (failed battery fan, now this). I'm not going to risk it all by repairing only a connection and later finding out that all these events will lead to the complete battery failure. 800km for a round trip is to long trip for me to take that kind of risk. Also, if Vectrix fails, I won't get any new battery anymore and I will have a 6400 EUR doorstep.

AndY1
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Mik, what happens, if those mid-cell Voltage connectors are not attached to the battery? Does it turn on? Does it charge?

Mik
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Mik, what happens, if those mid-cell Voltage connectors are not attached to the battery? Does it turn on? Does it charge?

I am not sure what you mean with this.

Do you mean the connections between cells, or between modules, or the voltage tabs for the stock-BMS?

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

Sorry for bad English on my part. I think those connectors, that monitor/balance the Voltage within the pack - 2 or 3 connectors.

Mik
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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

I think those connectors, that monitor/balance the Voltage within the pack - 2 or 3 connectors.

Well, they are connected like this:
//i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/S-BMS/th_VectrixBatteryandMC41andVoltageDivi.jpg) //i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/S-BMS/th_DSC05896.jpg)

I don't know where it goes from there.

The cables could theoretically fall off the tabs if their screw comes loose, without the tab being loose.

I do not know what effects this fault would have. I made sure that I screwed them on properly before firing the Vectux back up!

Could someone please calculate how much current leaks through this voltage divider (if that's the correct term for it)?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: BATHOT during riding, but the battery fans won't start ...

I was wondering in case I convert to 37 Kokam 40Ah LiPo Cells with Shultze balancers for all cells in the pack if Vectrix still works without having those connectors connected.

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