Maximum kilometres or miles

Vectrix does not sell individual cells. The battery assembly comes with front and rear battery packs and sensors. The cost is over $5,500 US.

Cool, that many of us have posted kms clocked.
I think we can deduce by all the info from these posts, that with one set of batteries we can do around 15.000Kms without too many problems and then probably 10.000 more with lots of problems!!!
Shouldnt we be already buying spare Batteries, now that Vectrix still has plenty of them in stock??

Keep on dreaming! How on earth do you come to that conclusion from the data presented in this thread?
No-one has gotten to 15000km yet, as far as we know, with one battery.

The scooter is basically an expensive battery with some nice add-on parts around it!

Anyway I got 4000klms on my first bike and have 19,500klms on current bike
and like Paul I am losing distance and power with no solution from our dealer.
BUT...... my travelling expenses has only been four tyres and $500 in power,
if not for the service and warranties in the past, I would have gone through $$$$$$
the problem might be software related, but as this issue has been dragging on for 6 months now
I reckon batteries are dying one by one.
Do you Mic, know where I can buy an interface cable? (bike to PC)
I'm going back to the older firmware version.
when by scooter was more like a vehicle instead of a toy.

How many batteries did you have in there to get to the 19,500km?

Here is a link to the CanBus to USB cable: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2775-vectrix-technical-resources#comment-17850
Two cables are needed: The one with the writing on it, and the purple cable at the bottom.

But I doubt that any software changes will fix your problem!

the only way to get high mileage is to charge at every opportunity and to never over discharge. The software that allows for charge delay helps by having a higher minimum voltage, this is why you typically see a lower range (and why you are told to ride until at (IMO) dangerously low speeds) It also shows any problems you may have with a defective battery set more readily.

Mik, thats the only thing we can do right now, Dream.

Nothing wrong with dreaming sometimes a bit, but I thought you were trying to collect actual data about achieved Vectrix range in this thread. Otherwise you could have called it: "How much range do you believe you will get on your Vectrix?"

You are of course telling this to the wrong man! It is hopefully quite clear that dreaming is NOT all that we can do! I have had the advantage of the canceled warranty, as a reward for my proactive gearbox repair attempts and the sharing of this valuable procedure. That made it obvious to me that the battery needed to be opened up, analyzed and improved to give it a chance to have some longevity. I am firmly convinced that I "caught it" just in time.
My battery was showing clear symptoms of problems, and the analysis confirmed that, and the installation of the manual BMS prevented further rapid deterioration. There have been numerous reports of similar scenarios, usually ending with ever decreasing range, bathot messages and finally a bad smell emanating from the rear end...

Dream about the life expectancy of our battery. But there is a guy here in Bcn who im in contact with and he has done around 14.000kms. He did 4.000km with the first pack and then went for the recall and has done another 10.000km with the second pack, i dont think its dreaming for him to make another 5.000km. Anyway i last spoke to him a month ago, so i will ask him how its going. I know he was waiting for a gearbox replacement and had the Vec in the dealer for 2 months but had finally got the change done.
15.000kms with 1 pack looks possible.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the Vectrix VX1 NiMH battery is fatally flawed. Not because on NiMH, but because of poor design. Their business model might have been bad , but it's the failure of the heavy, expensive and dangerous (due to high voltage) batteries that really caused the most trouble and service costs. The battery recall was only one disastrous facet of this.
Read this description of how the Prius NiMH battery is designed: http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-battery-pack

It reads like a "Who-is-who" of the cardinal mistakes that were made in the design of the Vectrix battery!

The main problem is the temperature gradient which will be present due to the three layered design: This will either cause severe imbalance, or needs to be rectified with frequent equalization charges, like introduced in the Oct 2008 software update. The equalization charges probably increase the life expectancy of the cells that would otherwise fail first, but they reduce the overall theoretical life expectancy of the entire pack. Each equalization charge is a slow over charge and ages the battery! The avoidance of C/10 overcharging (and over-discharging) is the key to the longevity of the RAV4EV and the Prius packs.

With an equalization charge scheduled every 10 running hrs (or whatever the exact number is) you cannot expect anything like the promised 80000km or 10 years.

You can expect to make it past the end of you warranty, though! Without the "update", many more batteries might fail during the warranty period.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the Vectrix VX1 NiMH battery is fatally flawed. Not because on NiMH, but because of poor design. Their business model might have been bad , but it's the failure of the heavy, expensive and dangerous (due to high voltage) batteries that really caused the most trouble and service costs.

That's interesting to hear. I agree with all your points - almost. While NiMH might not be the cause of a bad design it appears to make it harder to come up with a good design for a motorcycle. However, that's not why I posted!

What I wanted to ask for was clarification on your feeling that high voltage was a mistake and feeds into your conclusion of a bad design. Do you have a feeling what would have been a better system voltage? What about the trade-off of the associated higher amperage flowing from battery to controller?

I really hope you guys get access to the Vectrix technical manual and the all important software access.

What I wanted to ask for was clarification on your feeling that high voltage was a mistake and feeds into your conclusion of a bad design. Do you have a feeling what would have been a better system voltage? What about the trade-off of the associated higher amperage flowing from battery to controller?

Hi John,

this is going off topic here, but is of course interesting.

I have started a new "book page" and will reply at this location: http://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/6719#comment-38383

That way, Rady's "maximum miles or kilometers" question can stay on topic and the battery related discussion can be organized in one location.

Mik, when i say "we" can only dream of getting 15.000kms in our battry pack, i suppose i reffer myself to owners that cant open up their bike and fidget with the battery cause our guarantee will get void. Actually the only thing we can do is get as much kilometres as possible and pray that our battery doesnt die before Vectrix Corp.
Lets just see if a some more owners post the distanced clocked in their Vectrix and we will be getting a more clear picture everytime.
Anyway what i am sure of is that, even expecting 25% of the 80.000 of Vectrix Corp, is dreaming!

Collecting milage of our bikes is a good thing to get a general feeling about our batteries. I am now on 6400miles with my batteries that are 12 month old. The firmware is Oct.08.

Norman

15600 km and 95.7 km without recharge, during the European Rally Solar Phebus, Carcassonne to Tolouse at a sustained speed of 40-50 km/h until the death end, the last 5 km at 25 km/h. Hilly conditions in the mid part of the trip.

19700klms on 3 complete sets of Battery packs
I am getting 6000klm max before cells die
not good economics, you cant just ride it like a MOTOR bike
I'm mostly doing 60kph
Peter

The Vectux has made it past the 10,000km mark a few days ago, with the first battery!

The last 4,000km of this were after the DIY battery rework and installation of the Manual-BMS.

yesterday barcelona hit 40 degrees celsius. This summer is very hot! maximun voltage has droped from 151v to 146v. After rechaging it hangs around 143v....
I do declare my battery is starting to die...
I'm gonna need some kind of BMS...

yesterday barcelona hit 40 degrees celsius. This summer is very hot! maximun voltage has droped from 151v to 146v. After rechaging it hangs around 143v....
I do declare my battery is starting to die...
I'm gonna need some kind of BMS...

I don't think so... Batteries have worse performances with this kind of temperatures.

Maximum Voltage of my Batteries after recharge is between 140 and 143, i have never seen more than 143!!
Roger, have you always had 151?
Jmap , have you ever reached 151?
Mik what is you maximum voltage?
Thanks

You have to be more specific.

The voltage after charging is lower than the peak (or maximum) voltage during charging.

After a BALPOR the voltage repeatedly hits the 150V or 151V level during the CP stage. But that is really a malfunction.

Also remember, I have older firmware running:

ICM: REV 1007
Instrument Cluster: Rev D
Battery Charger: REV 2010
Motor Controller: REV 1012

With this firmware, and during "normal" recharges, the peak voltage during CP charging is 145V.
Then a slightly higher peak voltage is reached at the end of CC charging, usually 148V.
During EC charging the voltage drops sharply at first, then rises again a little bit to about 145V.
Once charging is over the voltage falls to 140V overnight and further over the next few days.

In the beggining of the second pack it reached 151v at 10 amp/h as a rule, after recharge dropped beetween 149-147. After new firmware I've realized that max voltage has been dropping in a sutained way trought time, every month a little less, till now, such low levels started to worry me... Is this software or aging?

Mine is more or less like Mik says...

I too have noticed changes in the max voltage. It was around 146-147 earlier in the year, now I start my day around 143. However, I assumed that this is the charger correcting for ambient temperature. I have a battery backup system for my house using lead acid bateries tand here the charger adjust the voltage for the temperature. In cold weather the pack sits at significantly higher voltages than in warm weather. we are talking 5-7% differences.

I think so, some hours later drops to that with this weather...

Hello Folks,

That battery Voltage on charge item by Mik is interesting. My experience is quite different.

At an ambient temperature 16 degrees C, CP153. The battery Voltage Left hand display rises from 128Volts(ish) with battery empty, up to 146Volts in about two hours (battery now at 80% charge), then rises to 154 before the charge pattern changes to tr153. On the old software the charge used to be 1.3 amperes on tr153 for fifteen minutes and the a return to CP153 until the battery voltage became 154Volts then a return to tr153. This would repeat for four cycles of tr. Finally a CC153 charge gave 3.0 amperes for one hours and occasionally an EQ charge of 1.3 amperes followed that.

The new software has a tr153 with no current input, just cooling fans. The CC runs longer than an hour and equalisation (anything up to four hours at three amperes) is every twelve hours of riding, which seems excessive to me.

The voltage 'aimed at' should, of course, be lower at higher temperatures. This is pretty standard for most battery types.

That is strange. When I had the old software it would go like this:
- CP 1.5kW (152V at 25+'C, 153V at 25-'C)
- TR 153 150W for 15 minutes
- CC 450W for 1 hour
- EC 150W for 1 hour

I don't know about the new software. I don't have the bike back, yet.

Hello Folks,

That battery Voltage on charge item by Mik is interesting. My experience is quite different.

At an ambient temperature 16 degrees C, CP153. The battery Voltage Left hand display rises from 128Volts(ish) with battery empty, up to 146Volts in about two hours (battery now at 80% charge), then rises to 154 before the charge pattern changes to tr153. On the old software the charge used to be 1.3 amperes on tr153 for fifteen minutes and the a return to CP153 until the battery voltage became 154Volts then a return to tr153. This would repeat for four cycles of tr. Finally a CC153 charge gave 3.0 amperes for one hours and occasionally an EQ charge of 1.3 amperes followed that.

The new software has a tr153 with no current input, just cooling fans. The CC runs longer than an hour and equalisation (anything up to four hours at three amperes) is every twelve hours of riding, which seems excessive to me.

The voltage 'aimed at' should, of course, be lower at higher temperatures. This is pretty standard for most battery types.

Hi The Laird,

What you are describing is the exact charging behavior of the older firmware versions which I called ‘Recharge after BALPOR”.

Each time I write this up, I understand it better, so here we go again…

One day I'll get around to putting it into the Collaborative Handbook....

A “Recharge after BALPOR” is the charging event following a Battery Low Point Reset (BALPOR). I made up these term due to the lack of explanation in the official manual. I feel there is a need to give these worrisome and recurrent events some sort of name which makes them more recognizable.

The “BALPOR” consists of the sudden disappearance of the remaining bars on the right hand side battery charge display (the “hourglass” shaped 17 segment LCD), and the remaining range display also drops to zero.
For example, 5 bars (along with about 20 fictitious remaining kilometers of range) will disappear in one hit, about 10 seconds after the battery telltale started to be lit.
If the throttle remains pulled open when the battery telltale is lit, then the current draw continues and the voltage drops below the acceptable level, which is programmable and different in various firmware versions. The BALPOR is caused by the faulty assumption of the stock electronics that there is still charge left in the battery, when in fact some cells (or all cells) are empty. This causes a rapid voltage drop during the reverse charging of the already empty cells, which finally convinces the stock BMS that the battery is empty. The signal to reset the gauge and the range indicator to zero is sent, this is also known as the disappearing bars syndrome, and the stock BMS now believes that it has an empty battery which is ready to receive a full charge.

This sets the stage for the “Recharge after BALPOR”, which is one of the more damaging events in the life of a VX-1 battery, but not necessarily the worst.

The “Recharge after BALPOR” behavior is due to one of the three VX-1 charger safety cutoff mechanisms in action, namely the high voltage safety cutoff. Another descriptive term for it would be "C/3 overcharging with 15min cooling breaks".
(The other safety cutoffs are capacity cutoff and high temperature safety cutoff. These safety cutoffs terminate or delay charging if either the battery temperature is too high, or the voltage is too high, or the battery is believed to be already full.)

The charger behavior during a Recharge after BALPOR will look very similar each time, but there are two distinct scenarios that may be occurring on the inside:

Scenario 1: The BALPOR occurs very close to a recharging point and driving stops immediately after the BALPOR. Only a little bit of reverse charging is inflicted on the low cells, and the high SOC cells keep the remaining charge. But the BMS assumes that they are all equally empty.
The charger then pumps about 11A through the battery in CP mode, trying to put 30Ah into the high SOC cells which still had about 8Ah left in them at the beginning of the charging process. The safety voltage cutoff has to stop a disaster when the full cells have reached such a high voltage that the total string voltage reaches 153V (or 148-153V, depending on temperature).
153/102 = 1.50V/cell on average.
If the cumulative battery voltage reaches the safety cutoff voltage (shown in the middle instrument cluster display) before 16/17th are reached on the hourglass display, then the charger eases off for 15 minutes, and then repeats the 11A cell abuse again, up to another three times, until either 17/17th are reached or the cutoff voltage level has been reached 4 times.
By then the overcharged, good cells are beginning to get quite hot, but they will still have to put up with a C/10 charge lasting 1 hr following this, called the CC charge stage.
Once that is over, the bad cells will probably have caught up and all are full and hot. The stock BMS does the EC charge stage for 1 hr.
Depending on how large the discrepancy between real and perceived SOC of the battery cells is, the hourglass charge display may show less than full at the end of all this. This happens for example when the whole battery is actually full, but the electronics believe the battery is empty, like I have seen after fuse repairs. If the state of charge (and along with it, the voltage) of all cells is very similar, then only little damage occurs, because all cells will get 4 very short C/3 charges until they are all at 1.5V. Even cells with permanently reduced capacity will not get damaged much by this, but only if they have the same State of Charge (SOC) as the good cells when it occurs.

But even in this first scenario they will not usually reach full SOC at the same time. The good cells have remaining charge, maybe about 8Ah or so, when the BALPOR occurs, and the low capacity cells are empty and hot from the reverse charging event prior to the BALPOR. These “Permanently reduced Capacity Cells” (PREDUCCs) are initially unable to efficiently absorb charge due to their deeply discharged state and their high temperature. Meanwhile, the good cells are cool and soak up the charge current well without heating up. This further increases the SOC discrepancy between the cells as the “Recharge after BALPOR” progresses.
If there are, say, 13 PREDUCCS in the 102 cell string, and their voltage might be 1.4V when the average of 1.5V is reached, then you can calculate the following:
102-13=89 ; 13 * 1.4V + 89 * XV = 153V ; (153-18.2)/89 = 1.5146V per good cell instead of 1.5V. That does some damage to the still good cells, causing premature aging.
So in summary: The first scenario causes moderate overcharging of the many good cells.

The second Scenario is much worse, and much more likely:

The BALPOR happens, unexpectedly as it usually does, whilst still a few km from the intended destination with the recharging point. Getting there in crawling mode uses up the remaining charge in the PREDUCCs at low current rates, until they get reverse charged even at the reduced current which the BMS still allows. They heat up more than in scenario 1. The good cells find nothing wrong with it all, they can easily supply the low current requested by the crawling scooter.
The severe problem will occur during the following recharge because the stock BMS still plans to perform a full 30Ah charge as soon as it gets plugged in. It again incorrectly assumes that the whole battery is empty and balanced.
If the amount of "empty but rechargeable capacity" of the good cells exceeds the total rechargeable capacity of the PREDUCCs, then this results in a much worse SOC imbalance compared to the first scenario.
This depends on how many Ah were drawn from the battery after the BALPOR. The more, the worse!
As I said, this is unfortunately the more common scenario, and it happens whenever a VX1 that already has PREDUCCs is regularly ridden until empty. It results in total destruction of the PREDUCCs over a relatively short time period (maybe a few dozen to a hundred charges).

Here is how the second scenario destroys the already weakened cells:
Assuming the same number of PREDUCCs in the 102 cell battery as in scenario one, i.e. 13, the voltages now add up like this:
Safety cutoff 153V is the voltage at which the stock BMS will stop CP charging.
Voltage of the 89 good cells when the PREDUCCs are already full is again presumably about 1.4V per cell.
==>153V = 13 * XV + 89 * 1.4V
==> 153V - 124.6V = 13 * XV
==> 28.4/13 = 2.18V per PREDUCC!!! And the BMS believes they are all at 1.5V!!!

That really gets them cooking! These already damaged cells will be heating up rapidly and possibly start to vent oxygen and hydrogen through the safety release valve on top of the cell, further reducing the cells capacity.

The effectiveness of the temperature safety cutoff mechanism during the second scenario depends on sheer luck: If the few PREDUCCs among the 102 cells happen to be located away from the temp sensors, then their rapid heating will go unnoticed. If the worst PREDUCC happens to have a temp sensor on it, then the worst over-charging will be prevented due to the detection of the steep temperature gradient occurring in this cell.

Sounds familiar?

.
.
EDIT: I have put this into the Collaborative Handbook at: http://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/7145
If anyone wants to specifically discuss the content of this post, then I suggest to do it there so that the results will be easier to find in the future.

Hi,
I have just reached 10.000 km in 5 months, the range on flat terrain is still 60 to 80 km i ride cool 50/70 km/h
regards
jean michel
cannes france

I see that Eyeinthesky and Paul from Australia have severe problems with their batteries. My question is : isn't Vectrix Australia obliged to change the Battery Packs under warranty??

We have 8 V1's in Australia, and they have all developed battery defects to some degree. Although VA has tried repair, replacement, (and despair). I can't say that there has been any really satisfactory cure. VA complains they can't receive parts or technical assistance from VUS. Legally, the bikes are covered by inherent and specific warranties that should place the onus directly on VA as the importer, but the problem is more complicated. All the legal precedents relate to automotive batteries.Since these are really concerned with car batteries, which are classed as accessories, the dealer is allowed to exempt batteries from warranties. This is not a problem, as the batteries usually have their own Guarantees. Obviously Vectrix V1 falls into a different category, since the battery is such a integral feature, but it would take a court decision to establish a new precedent. In addition, VA was indemnified by VUSA from batteries claims, as these should have been dealt with by VUSA.

Meantime, I claimed against VUSA for battery and electronic defects occurring during Australia's hotter months. By way of explanation, VUSA replied, " We don't sell bikes in Arizona..". Which apart from sounding like the beginning of a bad country and western song, was of bloody little use. So I sued. We actually achieved a settlement when VUSA went belly up, and I guess we are now just one of a long line of creditors!!

The UK bikes have far better mileages and considerably less problems. I am not an engineer, but I would guess it's because of a colder climate, better initial set up, and correct software updates.

It's a real shame, because if Vectrix reliably performed in accordance with it's potential, it was the perfect vehicle for our needs.

From my experience as a Vectrix owner, I reckon they would have been better employing Mik as a consultant. Certainly more battery testing and research should have been done completed, before commencing full production.

By way of explanation, VUSA replied, " We don't sell bikes in Arizona..".

The dealer in Tucson would be surprised to hear that. Then again, I don't think he's sold any yet, so maybe that's a true statement...