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the SE60 is the same size as the TS60.
they are the same width as the 40Ah cells.
so will fit side by side.
11 will fit end of end.
that gives 22 in the bottom layer.
im pretty sure i can fit another 22 in the top layer, but ill see what obstructions i encounter.
the 60Ah cells for two layers is only a combined 35mm taller than the 40Ah cells.
i could get an "oh bother" moment when i get the cells and pull my V apart again, but ill cross that bridge when come to it.
hibba - how much clearance do you have with your 40Ah cells?
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
se60s are 142 mm wide on the manufacturers website.
http://www.skyenergy.com.cn/EnProduct.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=
I had a play with the geometry ages ago, but couldn't work out a neat packaging solution.
the TS60s on their side for 42 cells came out 427mm high. Seat, bat box and panel mods :(
The battery cover will obviously not fit back on, even with the cells Hibba is trying to fit in.
It remains to be seen if the slightly better IR of Li cells and the better heat tolerance is sufficient to compensate for the absence of powerful forced air cooling!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I think the TS or SE40 cells will lay on their sides in 6 stacks of 7 cells inside the standard battery space.
Some careful baffling around the cells might even get the airflow right...ish
Graphs I've seen of continuous 3C discharge show a temp rise of only 10 or 15C, operating limmits of 55 mean a 40 deg day might still be fine. Endothermic charging to cool the batt at work.
in theory any way...
yes, perhaps i should explain,
there is more than one format for each cell size.
there is the 60Ah size that aren't particularly useful to us Vectrix owning folk.
there is also this one:
http://www.evworks.com.au/store/datasheets/SE_product_specifications.pdf
115mm wide, 61mm thick, 212mm tall.
prob still need some covering mods.
perspex centre plastic bit perhaps? give if a bit of a naked look :D
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
or forced heating as the case may be :)
its interesting to note that the "from riding" heat rise even at 100kmh continuous has been around 4-5 deg C, fairly consistently for me.
the cells im using to replace the original battery have similar thermal mass, but less sag.
there is of course no standby heat increase.
anyway, time will tell. i might put light duty flexible piping in the between cell cavities incase i want to watercool later.
if i was staying with ni-mh, id be doing this now.
put a bit of hose water through the battery will bring it below 30 deg c soon enough :)
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
The heat problem does not happen with just one charge cycle. It builds up.
There is no reason to believe that a battery container full of Li batteries will cool down much faster than the NiMH batteries. Maybe they hold less calories due to lower weight per volume, but the fundamental problem of insufficient surface area and practically absent spontaneous convective air cooling remains.
After one discharge, the Li cells without forced cooling might be cooler than the NiMH cells, but they will not cool down much during charging and / or standing without charging. The battery stays warm for several days without forced air cooling. That means that a 40degC day might allow you one ride, then your battery will be hot and stay hot. No chance to get it to cool down during the day, particularly if parked in the sun. The Li cells will get just as hot (from the top down) as the Ni cells when the Vectrix is parked in the sun. And they will stay hot all night long without forced air cooling, whilst the Ni battery can enjoy forced air cooling during the early morning hours.
During a heat wave, a forced air cooled Ni battery might well outperform an uncooled Li battery!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
ooooooooooh
do you have these cells?
perspex? not impact resistant enough.
the stock battery box cover appears to be about 10mm thick ABS? pretty heavy duty anyway.
making a nice looking step through cover will be the trick.
Mik, the stock fans can stay with the 40s in that configuration. 322mm high
Maybe some other 12V fans could be rigged with the 60s?
I was wondering about charging the 60s with the stock charger.
If you slotted a high current contactor in between the battery and the controller and paralleled it with appropriately sized resistors, maybe you could charge the first 30Ah, open the contactor, take the bike for a short ride and use the resistors to fake a low battery reset for the charger, then finish the charge with another stock 30Ah cycle.
A bit of a Pita, but at least the ability to charge 60Ah is onboard all the time and you aren't limited to 30Ah charges on the road.
If the 40s are the ones that Hibba is using, then they do not fit. Look at the first lot of pictures in the first post. The second layer is way too high up past the top of the battery box.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
same 40s, but in a different configuration.
Layed on their side 6 stacks of 7 high paired across the battery box.
While on their side is not recommened, it has been done by some and is convenient in this application.
60s in the same config are too high, waaaaay too high
But if they lie on their side, then the airflow is not possible to occur from bottom to top. Although you can then fit the cover back on, the cells may receive jolly little cooling in the centre when the impellers are running.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
That's what the baffles are about.
With the 40s, there will be about 40mm between the "bottom" of one cell in a stack and the "top" of the one in the next stack.
A diagonal baffle between the stacks could direct the incoming air at the bottom of the battery box to the "bottom" of the cells, through the ribs on the sides, out the "top" to be deflected up by the next baffle into the fans.
lots of little details to work out with that though
so far after testing today 30% of pack used i traveled 42 klms
that is quite stunning.
How did you determine the 30% discharge?
jarl!
Simple maths: With 40 Ah you can travel 120 km? Are you sure? at what speed?
When will you perform a full range test?
that's 40Wh/km... pretty much the spec in the users manual for a 40km/h run
Yup, liquid cooling would be a good addition. I like this idea. Especially if you just do a "poor man's" version and just run water from the faucet (do Aussies use faucets or taps?) through the piping in the bike and then into your water barrel for later use. Not as good as a proper closed loop system but easier to hook up. The TS cells have ribbing where you could run narrow diameter flexible pipes.
I wonder how hard a proper closed loop system would be? I suspect it would be trickier than it first appears.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
12v cooling system pumps are available.
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?category=4
But the Vectrix 12v supply probably isn't up to it. New DC to DC convertor required as well. with 60Ah on board, you could probably run heated hand grips off that too :)
really?
I would have thought the same current through a string of 40 cells or 44 cells would produce the same voltage sag per cell, just you have more of them in the 44 so the string voltage is higher.
it would mean that the bike would let you drag the cells down further before it intervenes, that might be bad for the already stressed TS40s.
40 cells 2.7V cut off
42 cells 2.57V
44 cells, 2.45V
I'd expect the BMS might alarm on 42 cells discharged to reset the "fuel gauge", on 44 it'd be almost certain.
But the SE cells are spec'd for a 2.0V minimum, so they should be fine with a 44 string
maybe 44 of these cells is a better number. Makes the SE40s not fit as nicely though
maybe there is so little extra range (5%?) availible from that that it wouldn't be worth the hassle or extra cost.
i was thinking more of max power at the time (i do like my acceleration)
a stock vectrix controller operates with a battery side voltage limit of around 108v, and 275A.
at 50% charge, this is how much power you can get from various cells:
TS40 TS60 SE40 SE60
40 cells 12.96kw 19.44kw 25.92kw 31.26kw
42 cells 15.73kw 23.59kw 30.17kw 32.82kw
44 cells 18.26kw 27.39kw 31.61kw 34.28kw
for all the TS cells, and the 40 x SE40, the controller is in LV 108v at full power.
for all the SE cells (except the 40 x SE40) the controller is in 275A current limit.
all values are approx, so YMMV.
they are based upon 2009 model cells, so newer cells may do better.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Cheers matt, thanks for the numbers
So 42 Se40 cells should provide stock like performance and improved range?
what sort of range would you expect? - I won't hold you to it :)
i would suggest 42 SE40 would give better than original power.
the original battery at full power depends on many variables as to whether the controller goes into 108v LV, or 275A current limit at full charge.
from 42 SE 40 i expect 4.4kwh (thats full range of original guage, and gives 7Ah reserve) or 45km @ 100kmh or 70km @ 80kmh.
time will tell.
as for LV red battery light,
im not sure that will really be necessary, as the setup will auto sync at full charge.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
By that you mean, the charger will delliver 30AH + the 3A EC cycle and will show full "fuel gauge" when the Battery is anywhere between 30 and 40Ah?
I was wondering if the factory charger compensations for self discharge of the NiMH pack might eventually add enough to fill the SE pack (if I only use 30AH between charges)
It is my opinion, that the latest Vectrix software is written in a way, that calculates capacity above 30Ah of original battery (X-Vectrix reported that). So, for example, if you make a 40Ah Li(Fe)Po pack, then trigger red battery telltale and then start charging an empty Li(Fe)Po pack, it will charge to the Cut-Off voltage, written on the speedometer LCD display, no matter how long that takes (even if all battery bars are filled). When it reaches the Cut-Off voltage, it calculates, how much energy went into the pack and adjusts battery bar gauge appropriately. So, if 40Ah went into the pack, instead of 30Ah, one battery bar will last 33% longer than with the original pack.
If you, then, drive to the red battery telltale and repeat the process, the battery gauge readout will be even more precise.
Previous software had a fixed value of 30Ah hard-coded into the software, the new software has the battery capacity as a variable, that gets adjusted by the red battery telltale -> full charge -> red battery telltale sync. That is my experience and from what I gathered from X-Vectrix' posts.
My understanding, is similar.
The old software is fixed at 30Ah + the 3A top off charge with some temp and time (self discharge) compensations
the new software is basically the same with the 30AH variable, but only down. So you don't over charge a battery that has aged and permanently lost capacity
I believe the maximum you can get out of the charger after a low batt reset is 33Ah
I can assure this is true:
we tested two fully charged vectrix toghether, and when one display showed only one bar, the other bike showed 6 bars in the gauge. this is why it is not easy for an owner to know his battery is damaged, the bar guage is adjusted to real capacity....
Yep, adjusted down.
I'm pretty sure it won't adjust the Ah measured up over 30Ah. I had some private discussion with someone in the know,it was sad news to me. I'll go check my emails, but Im pretty sure I have that straight
i charged bike to full voltage was 134.8 v
i was riding it hard for 42 klms and voltage was 132v it didnt drop much
this is with 40 cells my two new ones are here putting them in monday more testing new soft wear should be here on friday
hibba
Hard riding for 42km is and improvement no matter how much of the 40Ah you used.
Nice :)
I have a theory that using the new software might be a backwards step for a LiFePO4 powered V
I believe the low volt power reduction kicks in on the new program at a higher voltage than the old software. I might be talking rubbish here so please chase this up with other sources. I believe it was introduced as a patch to protect weak cells from reversal because the stock BMS and controller can't see them until they are irrepairiblly damaged.
Maybe this could be good for 44 TS40 cells to protect them from excessive sag and limit discharge to above the 2.5V minimum, but otherwise, I think it would reduce power while the cells are happy and reduce bike performance unnecessarily.
If there is a risk of this, why would you want to use the new software? Are there any advantages?
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