It's taken me a while to start this topic, and I probably won't write a lot at once, because typing is somewhat painful for me these days. Still, those who have been following the successful swap/purchase of my bug-ridden 2015 Zero SR for Kocho's 2009 Leaf cell converted VX-1 expressed some interest in my experiences with my Vectrix, and comparisons to my other bikes, past and present. First, the good:
The Vectrix is the second-fastest (after the SR) electric bike I've owned. It is easily faster than the ZEV 5000LA I owned for about four trouble-filled years. It's faster at just about every speed, maybe excepting the 5-10MPH range, in which it may be about the same. There is no comparison at all in the 45-65MPH range, where the ZEV didn't so much accelerate as "reluctantly gather speed." The handling is also better, and I love having Reverse, as my garage doors sit at the bottom of a modest but still significant slope up to the street. As for range, I had to ride very carefully to get 35 miles out of the ZEV, with 40 miles being more or less the limit. With the VX-1 I can easily ride for 50 miles with just a little attention to riding efficiently, and I estimate the safe range to be 55-60 miles, with about a 10 mile 'reserve' created by the bike "thinking" it has a 40AH pack rather than the actual 60AH or so the Leaf cells provide.
The less than good:
Man, this bike is noisy, especially under load! I try to think of it as a turbine-powered vehicle (the 1960s Bat-mobile, for example), and that helps a little, but my mechanical spider-sense keeps telling me that something is wrong - those straight-cut planetary gears are just plain annoying, and they even 'warble' a bit under the right (or wrong) conditions. I definitely plan to install sound-damping plastic foam this Summer. I'm postponing plans to replace the gear oil with synthetic, after being told by several VX-1 owners that they all sound this way, even after synthetic oil is used, but it does detract from my riding pleasure to have the back of my brain telling me that I'm riding a "sick" machine.
Much less an issue, but still an issue, is having to worry about the Leaf cells getting warm enough to degrade, as Leaf cells are prone to do when hot. Mostly this means simple things like charging on different days than I ride, except for a "top-up" from 14 or 15 bars to 17, because Leaf cells also dislike sitting around full. It also means, though, that I should limit hot weather use of the bike to rides on which I don't have to stop and recharge at all. This will probably result in me not using the Vectrix to ride to my favorite mountain park (Grafton lakes State Park) to swim during heat waves. Instead I'll likely take my ICE bike (a 1982 Suzuki GS450T for the last few years, soon to be replaced by a 1982 GS650L vintage cruiser) on that trip if I want two wheels, prompting a little extra environmental guilt.
Upgrades:
I've already added a Givi backrest to the Givi V46 top box for passenger comfort (and that sporty Euro-scooter look). I also lubricated the infernal Givi locking mechanism with silicone spray lube; I had been going Nuts thinking I couldn't remember how to operate it, but it turns out to just have been stuck.
I also plan to add several temperature sensors, two or three on the pack itself, and one for the outside temp. Then there will be the already-mentioned sound-deadening foam, and a pair of animal warning whistles. I know from experience that these whistles help keep wildlife from running under car tires, but I don't know for sure, even after several years of using them, if they work on motorcycles...
Funny, I thought there was a thread here, not just one post...
Anyway, last weekend I did a range test slash back-country ride on the VX-1. I decided to cruise unhurriedly to a campground on the Battenkill River (really just a stream) where my family used to go in the Summer. It was about 29 miles there, and maybe a bit longer for the ride home, so since I had guesstimated the bike's range at 60 miles before I had to start using the "invisible reserve" resulting from the pack being larger (about 60AH) than the bike "thought" (40AH), I arranged for a return trip partial recharge, just in case. There was only one non-Tesla location on PlugShare in the area, but it turned out to be right on my route, so after making arrangements I stopped on the way out to meet Sean, who has both a J-1772 station and 120 volt outlet available, and show him the bike.
I was running a little late by then, though: I had planned to leave at about 5:00pm, and when the charge indicator showed a full 17 bars at 4:00Pm, I thought I was on track - about an hour for equalizing seemed right. By 5:30PM, though, the bike was still doing the EQ, albeit with a charge rate that had tapered to 300 watts, with the voltage at 142-143, alternating back and forth. I gave it until 5:45Pm, and with the charger running at only 200 watts, I figured I was close enough to full. I took the scenic, lower-consumption route around the ridge that runs near my house, and when I reached Sean's place, about 10 miles from home, I was still seeing 15 bars. We talked for about ten minutes, he admired the bike, and I was on my way again, telling him I'd stop on the way back if needed.
I took it fairly easy on the ride out, avoiding getting up to 55MPH on the few stretches where that was the legal limit, instead waving cars around me and staying at 40-50MPH, mostly. There are quite a few smaller hills on Route 67 here, though, so it was a fair test of gentle country road riding range. I was at 9 bars when I passed the campground, but I wanted to ride just a couple of miles farther on, to visit the covered bridge where we used to swim and fish. The spot was just as I remembered it, but it was also crowded with young people, so I only stayed a few minutes, then headed back to the campground.
I knew the place had RV hookups, with water and power at quite a few sites, so I was hopeful that I could rent a site and then use it for just a couple of hours, so I could recharge there, by the river, instead of in Sean's driveway.
The campground is under new ownership, a nice enough woman and her very nice daughter. I was told I could get a "day pass" for a site for $15, and to enjoy myself. I bought the pass, and gave her $20. (Money is finally not a big issue for me, these days.) The dirt road to the river was the same, long and very dusty, but I got though without another vehicle "dusting" me. I had been told to pick any empty site, so I chose one near the river, albeit not actually on the bank. I had had the foresight to bring along the NEMA TT-30 (120 volts, 30 amps, triangular prong pattern) to NEMA 5-15/20 household plug adapter I picked up a while back for my Leaf, and while the site's power box had a standard 120 volt GFCI adapter, it was "upside down" as is now the fashion, to make it easier to get the ground prong in when it's dark. That would have worked OK, but I used the adapter, instead, and it worked like a charm. The bike started charging, and I hiked to the bathroom (much nicer than when I was a teenager) and then settled down on a rock shelf on the river back to relax.
I had planned to stay until actual night fell, but we've been having slightly unusual Summer weather this year: fairly warm temps (~85F) but with very low humidity, and like the previous night the temperature started to drop quickly as the sun reached the horizon. I decided to leave at 8:00pm, only an hour or so after arriving. I added a turtleneck shirt under my jacket, thought it over a moment, then also donned the light open-face balaclava I had thought to bring. The bike, meanwhile, had charged from either 8 or 9 bars to 10 or eleven - I figured it had added about 1.5 actual bars to the charge, and since there would be an elevation drop on the ride home, I felt that this was enough. I didn't take it as easy on the bike on the ride home, riding at 55MPH where it was allowed, and 45 for most of the rest of the route. It was just reaching full dark outside as I arrived home. I wanted to "even out" the trip odometer, so I rode a few extra blocks after having taken a side trip to a cemetery on my way back. I arrived home with 67 miles on the trip meter, and exactly two bars showing on the charge gauge - the third one dropped about 100 feet from my house. I wasn't sure if I should charge immediately or not; I ended up letting it cool for about 90 minutes in my garage, and then later charging it only to 5 bars / 139 volts, leaving it to cool off fully afterwards. The bike performed flawlessly (possibly excepting the chirping noise from the rear) and since I added slightly less charge than was left showing on the gauge when I arrived, I figure I can ride for 70 miles on back roads, and probably 60 miles with more highway riding included. It was a good ride!
Nice ride :-)
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
Hi Leftie,
If you do end-up measuring the battery temp., I'd be curious to learn what you find. On the SR that I acquired from you through the swap, the battery temp. rises by about 10F over 12 miles of pretty vigorous mostly highway commute, sometimes reaching near 80mph and seldom going below 65mph, with very generous dose of acceleration (and regen deceleration). It must be drawing on the average at least 2-4 times the currents the VX1 is drawing at 40-50mph. So, I doubt the Vectrix Leaf battery heats-up by much at all in your usage scenario due to current draw. Maybe I'll do a run on the SR at suburban speeds in Eco mode, which I think is not that different from the VX1, and see if the battery changes temp. in this gentle-use situation...
Maybe someone who kept their temp. sensors with a Leaf conversion VX1 could share their battery temp. readings? Does your Leaf car report its battery temperature? Does it have active cooling? Maybe some conclusions can be drawn from it too?
I'll keep an eye on this thread for future updates!
Hey, Kocho, I was planning to ask you a question about this. Good timing! I'm not so much worried about temps soaring under load* as I am about them slowly but irreversible rising in hot weather, and I want to know when I can recharge without worry, and when I should wait. The two cheap Chinese thermometers with remote probes I ordered finally arrived yesterday. One seems spot on, or at least matching my weather station, and the other is only about .7F high. I'm thinking about following your suggestion and using a hole saw to make one or two holes in the battery cover, under the seat. Looking at YouTube vids of another Leaf conversion, it appears that I'd want to place one sensor hole (the probes are plastic-coated, happily) on the right side of the warning label in that area, to get the right rear section of the pack, and maybe one about 10" forward of that to get the right middle. Does this sound right? Do you have any photos or vids of your conversion?
As for the Leaf instrumentation, and pack cooling, it sucks. Non-linear bar "gauges" for battery temp with no numbers, and no active cooling, just passive airflow (from the nose of the car, not the cooled interior) over the pack. There are known temp ranges for each bar, but I don't remember them offhand - I think in terms of "temp bars" when deciding whether or not to charge my Leaf. I don't expect the readings from my thermometers to be accurate representations of the actual pack temp, but I think that given a little time I can develop a sense of what is "hot" and what isn't.
* The bike's controller cooling fan runs fairly often when I push it even a bit, but I assume that it comes on at temps that won't yet have heated the battery cells a foot or so in front of them much.
My guess is that the air temperature just above the battery might fluctuate faster than the actual battery temperature. Unless you take the time to take off the seat and battery cover to place a probe on the side of the battery, I don't know if you can relate the measurement with the actual battery temp.
Yes, the controller fans kick-in pretty early, unless the weather is really cold. Inside, there are about 2-3" of air plus a 3/4" plywood piece separating the cell closest to the controller and the controller itself. I would think that's where the hottest spots are. When you lift the rear seat, you can probably slide one of the probes inside the battery compartment through there (rather than remove the front seat and insert through the battery cover there). I have a small foam piece inserted to fill the air gap between the battery cover and the frame - that is for dust protection. You could possibly force the probe through there without drilling. Or if you remove the battery cover you can route the cable for the probe through there without drilling too - again, access to that area is closes from the trunk area. Alternatively (or in addition), on the battery cover under the front seat there are already some small holes that I remember I may have taped with electrical tape or may be filled with the screws that held the fan cover under it. There is also the hole from the electrical connector from the power to these fans - that is probably the best place to insert your probe without drilling.
The individual cell terminals and BMS wires in my conversion are covered with the Nissan Leaf OEM orange battery plastic covers, so you won't be poking directly at them with the probe, but these covers are not that sturdy, so be careful nevertheless. And at the controller end, the terminals are not covered and you may be poking directly at the controller components too, if you insert a probe near the rear seat from the trunk area.
If your leaf battery is not actively cooled in the car, maybe you can compare how it changes temperature at gentle riding and make some conclusions about how it behaves in the VX1 (I would think it is probably less loaded in the Vectrix in terms of current draw)
I'm just trying to get a sense of the relative temps in hot riding, not the actual pack temp. One way to get a better reading would be to only look at the readout when the bike was stopped for at least a minute. I'm a little confused, though: did you isolate the whole pack with plywood from the outside airstream, or just the rear of the pack from the controller? If there is outside air flowing over the pack, albeit in low volume, then another thought I had was to install manually adjustable louvers on the battery cover. The louvers would be closed when the outside air is hot, and open when it's cool. (Sometime it will be in the eighties Fahrenheit outside when I start a ride, and close to 70F or even cooler when I'm headed home.) Anyway, I'd rather avoid removing the battery cover during riding season, but I don't want to wait until next year to have some indication of how hot the pack is, so I'll look at the two locations you mention. I did see the tape-covered holes, and removed one piece of tape, but I couldn't see, even with a light, if the holes went all the way through or not. In any case, I'd lower the probe wire through whatever hole I use until it touches the pack insulator cover, then back it off a few MM, so it ended up close to the cover but not actually sitting on it. At worst, the wire would sag enough so the plastic-covered probe was just touching the orange battery cover, but not pressing down on it.
The cells are compressed together with 4 threaded rods lengthwise from end to end, with plywood planks on the front and rear of the battery for support of the last cells and they also serve as temperature insulation there. The front of the battery pushes against the front end of the battery compartment, the rear is a couple of inches away from the controller and there is an air gap there. From the bottom the battery is insulated as it is over a 1/4" minicell foam. The same type of foam is also on the sides, together with some thin plastic sheet insulation (2mm or so) that together with the minicell foam also helps secure the battery pack in place so that it does not shift when riding. There are several inches of air above the battery below the battery cover.
The original air ducts for battery cooling are still there, but probably ineffective, because they lead to the side in the middle and near the bottom of the battery pack, where it is insulated.
I do not think there is active airflow in the battery compartment as it is, and my guess is that it will take considerably longer than a few minutes for heat to begin to transfer inside or out by any meaningful measure. The battery cover is quite thick plastic. On top of it in the front, where your feet are, is another decorative plastic cover, with an air gap between them. Over the rear of the battery cover is the front seat, which also has a plastic base and thick foam on top. As I mentioned, the bottom and sides of the battery are insulated with foam. And the fans of the controller are on the outside at the heat sink and they do not move air inside the battery compartment.
I would be curious what your temp. measurements find out about the temp. conditions around the pack.
Thanks for the clarification of the pack structure and airflow. It sounds like about what I had originally figured: the pack will be slow to get hot, and even slower to cool off. What I think I'll do is not bother to read the temp gauge (when installed) until the bike has been ridden for most or even all of the trip, and has then sat still for at least 15 minutes. That should give me a temp reading if not close to the pack temp, then at least useful for comparison with rides on cool days. So rather than giving me a "riding status temp" the gauge will give me a "Safe or not safe to recharge now?" temp.
I installed my first pack-adjacent temp sensor this evening. I initially tried the rear location with existing holes for the cooling fan screws as Kocho suggested, but once I had enlarged one and shone a light into it, I could see that I was aft of the rear of the pack - connector plugs were visible, and I wanted to avoid anything like that. So I tried my originally planned location: the right side of the big white warning label that the factory placed on the battery cover. (I don't know if they put them all in the same spot, so I will post some photos eventually.) That seemed spot on, and I straightened the wire on my Chinese temp sensor probe and lowered it until it just touched the red battery bus cover. I don't see how that little plastic-coated probe could wear through the thick plastic bus cover, and I wanted actual contact for a better temp reading. I routed the probe cable (inside a plastic tube that I cut and slit lengthwise) into the underseat compartment. I carry a motorcycle tank bag in there as a kind of organizer for the miscellaneous stuff I carry, and the bag has a clear map pocket on top with a piece of velcro glued in to hold a clock, so I placed the thermometer in there, velcro-ed in place and visible through the pocket when the seat is open. The thermometer reads about 1.5 degrees lower than my garage. This makes sense, because we are having a hot, humid stretch of weather, and my garage is much warmer than usual, while the pack, which hasn't been used in two weeks, should be cooler. I'll probably be taking a ride either tomorrow or Sunday evening, and I will try to remember to record both the ambient temp as measured by one unit with the probe under the windshield, and the temperature of the battery bus cover, both before and after the ride. Given the unavoidable lag in readings I'm not concerned about not being able to see the pack thermometer while riding - I'll check it when I stop, and before I recharge.
I have also ordered a J-1772 adapter from Tuscon EV. I haven't received confirmation yet, but I think I'll be getting a Zero-type J-1772 adapter socket, with a NEMA 5-15 female 120 volt socket attached, and #12 AWG cable. I'll just carry that on the bike, and I'll be able to plug into the fairly numerous ChargePoint stations in my area, as well as my own EV charging station, as needed.
This will be short, as it's my bedtime, but I'm logged in anyway, so...
I did a ride with the new temp sensor the other evening. I got about an 8 degree Fahrenheit temp rise over the course of an hour-long ride, with several short stops. The sensor temp went from about one degree F below garage ambient (it read 72.7F), to about 7 degrees above outside ambient (80.5F) when I arrived home. The only time it rose quickly was when I parked the bike in the garage. Despite some vigorous hill climbing and serious downhill regen (but low speeds overall) the rise during the ride was very modest, maybe three degrees. I guestimate that this is actually a higher rise in the actual pack temp, but probably not by more then 5 to 7 degrees or so. So it looks like the pack has enough mass and low enough discharge rates to stay reasonably safe under normal conditions. I expect to see marginally Hot temps on the next ride in Hot weather, though, which may be a soon as Thursday.
Since I'm signed in anyway: I took my first ride with a passenger this evening. It was Hot out, 89F in the city (in the late evening) and 80 in the country. The pack-top got up to about 85F by a stop mid-ride; I don't know if it got any hotter, but after three hours sitting at her house and then a cool (70F) ride home at night, it was down to the mid 70s. This tells me that rides in hot ambient temps shouldn't include recharging, and that there is enough ambient air cooling (and warming) of the pack for the ambient temps to be quite significant in relation to pack temps. I also found that, at least on country roads, a 110(?) pound passenger doesn't greatly decrease range.
I was also pleasantly surprised at how well the bike handles with a passenger, at least of that size (5'4"?) and weight. Except when she spoke or shifted her weight abruptly, and when I was starting off or stopping, I couldn't tell she was there. That's another point for the Vectrix over every other bike I've ridden, electric or ICE.
The temperature readout is proving to be as useful as I could have hoped for, given the inherent limitations in placing it on the plastic cover over the pack. I can now see when the pack has cooled off, when it's a bit too hot for me to want to charge it, and when to end charging in marginal conditions. I'm using 76F as a maximum charging temp (assuming the pack itself is about 5F warmer) and 81F seem to be where it tops out in most warm weather riding. It may have reached 84.5F once, I think. The pack cools off more quickly than I had expected when the ambient air cools off a lot, like from the 80s to the 70s Fahrenheit, which is good. I've got two more of the little thermometer units ordered from China, and will add at least one more sensor on the bike.
From the quick temperature changes, especially on cooling off, it seems the pack isn't really warming-up from use, just the air around it is changing temps. The pack itself would take long hours to cool off by a few degrees.
Our ambient temps this week were close to 100F in the DC area, never going below 80 at night. Looks like you are having some really nice riding weather in the 70s-80s up there...
And if you summ up , that the leaf cells are rich in manganese , and that chemical is prone to some reactions above 30-35 deegrees celsius...Later i will post a paper that has information regarding that subject.I supose that the samsung batteries that are in the bmw i3 in less manner have the same problem , so the bmw engineers build a cold gas circuit on to the battery thermal mechanism.
The pack does warm past ambient while the bike is being ridden, and warms while being charged. It also stays cooler than ambient evening temps in the garage, because I have the garage cooling in the mornings via exhaust fans, and for some reason it seems to cool more quickly than it warms - although this may be an artifact of the temp probe placement.
If by "long hours" you mean about two hours, that's all it takes for it to cool several degrees when it's nighttime and the ambient temps drop quickly. That was the only real surprise - how quickly it cools down when exposed to cool outside air. It also cools faster than expected when sitting outside on a warm night, although that too may be from the top of the pack cooling much faster than the core.
Aluminium is a terrific heat conductor - to have both the bike frame and battery casings made out of it makes for rather short cool down times
I'm rather curious as to what your winter performance will be like
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
The lowest temps I can comfortably ride in are the fifties, Fahrenheit, and that's only because of the fairing and winter windshield. My circulation is bad, and even at those temps I'd be using heated gloves and not riding far, but I'll try to make at least one ride in colder temps, and report on that. At worst I can report start and end voltages for a cold, short ride.
I don't think I mentioned that I put a piece of thin, flexible foam rubber in between the Givi box and its mount, and that that cured its slight vertical bouncing. I also just put a little goose-necked battery light in the box, in the lid. I have yet to start on the sound-dampening project, because the damned Suzuki is still sitting in the garage, waiting for a valve adjustment before I can get it running again. Man, I wish I'd never seen that Ebay listing...
The lovely, red, low-mileage VX-1 that I mentioned a few months ago is back for sale locally. If someone in the US wants to pick up an almost-new VX-1, I'll post a link. Hell, I'll do it anyway, now...
http://albany.craigslist.org/wan/5715964301.html
It looks like someone bought it, did nothing to it, and wants to resell it for $1500. It should still sell for $600 or so.
HI LEFTY, There is a red one down in monro,GA, for $250.00 with about 3600 miles on it it's on eaby.
This one supposedly has 250 miles on it.
I finally got the chance to try the Tucson EV J-1772 adapter cable with socket that I bought a while back. (The hot weather we've had for most of the Summer has stopped me from using it to charge on the fly, but today I was running a bit low, so I stopped at the Price Chopper mini-market in downtown Saratoga Springs, and plugged it. It worked without a hitch. I took a couple of photos, and will post them soon. It's about half the cost of Zero's adapter, and came ready to Plug & Play.