Hi all - new member here!
I am about to buy a used VX-1, an '07 model in the US with about 10k miles on original NiMH batteries (replaced under recall early in its life, so basically, 5-6 years old at least), updated software a couple of years ago.
What should/can I check for when I inspect it? Understandably, very apprehensive about it, having read about potential issues as much as I could here and elsewhere...
Also, can anyone tell me what is a good way to secure it on a trailer (recommended tie down points)?
I am a complete noob as far as scooters/motor bikes are concerned (electric or otherwise), however, quite well versed in hybrid cars and car mechanics. And I think I gained a fairly good understanding of what is in a Vectrix by reading online (and that scares me a bit!).
A quick reply will be appreciated as I am making the trip to see it in a couple of days.
Again, I am not trying to decide if I should get a Vectrix. Instead, I need help to make sure there aren't any hidden issues that I could check for with the particular one I am looking at.
Thanks!
Sorry about what seems to be 3x posts - this forum is a usability nightmare... please, reply to this thread. Thanks!
Hi Kocho,
Do you have the CanBus cable? It would be very useful to check the bike's condition.
Without the cable the amount of info you can get/check depends on the firmware version of the bike.
Regarding "tie down points" you can check the manual (if you don't have it please send me a PM).
Good luck!
Thanks for the photo - looks simple enough. Email sent about the user manual.
I do not have a CanBus cable for a Vectrix. I do have a generic OBDI code reader (for CAN and for the older standards), but that would probably not report much useful info.
I read about the cable but have not researched enough to figure out where I could get one in the US and what the cost is. Adapters to USB should be readily available and cheap, as long as the Vectrix uses a standard plug - is this the case? Then, I would also need to fond the software to view the info and connect to the bike... That's on my to-do list, don't know if I can source all that soon enough before I see the bike.
I saw some videos about the rear hub vibrating at 8 mph low speeds - is that common/normal or just that one famously bad example on YouTube?
If the bike can make only 62mph, will this indicate old firmware? The new one is supposed to be 68mph, right? So, just driving it past 62 would show that?
Kocho, where in the country are you?
Hi Kocho,
If I were you, I would:
Episode 1:
1)Dismantle the battery cover, check that the motor connections are firmly attached to the MC (you need to know correct torque, consult service manuals, if you overtorque the screws you'll damage the board)
2)check if you have a 125A fuse or a 200A fuse.
3)If you have a 125A fuse, replace it with a 200A one. You'll need to take out one battery block to work properly on the MC. Check all Fuse replacing procedures in the service manual. Remember, you'll need an inrush current limiter before reconnecting the battery. If you don't use it, you may damage the motorcontroller.
4)Buy the Peak Canbus adapter, install scooterdiag on a laptop, and check the firmwares installed. Never plug the vectrix and the laptop at the same time, the laptop would be destroyed by a shortcircuit.
5)Check if you have ESD or runke Charger.
6)The original NIMH battery was good for a 70+ KM. NIMH original Firmware from Vectrix is a battery killer. Your battery will have damage, no doubt. If you want to slow down that damage every time you recharge it, I recommend you install the lairds Firmware for NIMH, only valid for EDS charger.
Episode 2:
7)Decide what lithium battery fits best to your budged and your Vectrix. Take all the time you need. In my opinion, 60Ah is the minimum capacity to enjoy long trips on the Vectrix, but my choice was restricted by money: 40Ah.
8)Before purchasing anything, you should ask Master The laird if it is possible to reprogram your charger to fit that battery. If it is not possible, you,ll have to find a programable charger.
8)Buy that battery and the Emus BMS with the blue-tooth expansion kit, the central unit, and the solid state relay. I also recommend the current sensor. http://www.elektromotus.lt/en/products/battery-management-system-bms
9)Program charger and BMS, install emus app on your smart-phone. Find a waterproof support for your smart-phone, it will give you value data about the battery during your trips.
Good luck!
Hi Kocho,
It would help if you could open the bike. The perfect test is opening it and checking every 102 cell for it´s voltage. 1.4v charged is what you are looking for.
And do a visual check. There should be no swollen cells. This ones usualy are unhealthy ones.
But even if you can't open it you still can have a very good ideia of the pack health.
The resting voltage after a full charge should be above 140v. The higher, the better. 145v is a sign of a very healthy Nimh pack. To check the voltage, just hit the red kill switch and press left brake. Voltage appears in the dashboard. I wouldn't buy a bike that is under 140v. Not without a massive discount.
Also check for the temperature of the pack. Bad packs can get very hot. An healthy pack shoudn't heat up very much during the charge process. Maybe between 2-4º. A massive rise in pack temperature during the charge is also a big no no! :D To check the temperature, just hit the red kill switch and press left brake. It appears in the dashboard, under the voltage.
But ask for a test ride. You should ride it (at normal speed) for 40 miles. Never less than 35 miles. Again, I wouldn't buy a bike that goes less than, let's say, 30 miles without a massive discount.
Beeing a 2007 bike it has the ESD charger, so even if it has the nasty original SW, you can change it later for The Laird's SW. Highly recomended.
The rest is the usual. Check the brakes, the tires, if it runs straight with no hands, no wobbles.
Anything unsual is a bad sign.
Good luck.
MD
Thank you guys! I don't know if I want/can disassemble the bike before I buy it. I think the price is fair and factors in the risk (and almost certainty, from what I read) that the battery will go bad not too far in the future. If I get another season or two put of it before that happens will be great. Out of curiosity, what would you consider fair price if it does go for 40 miles and what if it only goes for 20 and all else is fine?
I'll check the voltage at rest and do a test ride forma few miles to see how the battery discharges. How should the voltage drop after say 10 miles? Is that indicative of its condition?
Do I need to run it down to close to empty say 1 bar (say 30+ miles, hopefully) to determine the range? Or can I run it for just a few miles and rely on the instrumentation? Can one rely on the voltage and range estimates (even if they are wrong, are they reliable at least?). E.g., if I run it for 15 miles and haven 3/4 full, can I assume it would be good for another 45 or is the gauge not linear but I can still expect another 15 or however many miles that would translate to? Of course, assuming constant and flat riding conditions?
The 150lb owner says it gets about 40 miles at 35-40mph and I would be content with that for now. Has supposedly been charged during non-use months and used gently otherwise.
Thanks again, very helpful info!
I won't coment on the price because my market (Portugal) is very diferent from yours. Very expensive. I can tell you I payed more than 6000USD for my bike! And it was then (feb 2012) a 3 and half year old bike with 32.000 miles on the odometer. Crazy, right? And I don't regret it a little bit! Prices came down a bit, but a used Vectrix in fair condition in Portugal will cost you over 5.000USD. Check this out:
http://pousos.olx.pt/vectrix-vx-1-iid-445390371
http://lisboacity.olx.pt/vectrix-vx-1-nimh-iid-449492567
http://loures.olx.pt/vectrix-iid-451993641
http://leiria-leiria.olx.pt/vectrix-vx1-iid-449627145
http://caldasdarainha.olx.pt/scooter-electrica-vectrix-vx1-premium-120km-h-iid-437520356 (Fuel Free Version with custom SW and 75 mph top speed)
All prices in EUROS!
Your market is much bigger, and now with the closure of Vectrix, prices might descend even further. Do your homework. Use the bankrupcy to your advantage :D
You should do a full ride and a full charge. That is my advice.
This way you can control both the discharge (measure range) and charge (measure temp increase).
The only reliable thing you can trust is the voltage. I can give you my personal experience, but every pack is diferent and orography/throttle plays a big part in the range you get:
>140v -> 40 miles
133v -> 30 miles
129v -> 20 miles
125v -> 10 miles
120v -> empty
The bars are not reliable and certanly not linear. The last 4 or 5 bars are false. With the original SW you might get the low batterie red light with 4 or 5 bars left. The first bars might do 3 to 5 miles each and the last ones not even one mile!!! Be carefull.
Once again, ask for a full ride discharge. If the current owner doesn't trust you to drive it, ask to ride as a passanger. The estimate miles left indicator is also not reliable.
I'd say that if you both ride it (over 300lbs total weight) and get at least 35 miles in one charge, it should be ok.
Once again, good luck!
Thanks, this is helpful! The owner says the voltage is 136 now with a couple of bars drop below full from sitting in the cold outside for a couple of weeks after the last charge. So, is a loss of a couple of bars and say 10 volts OK for a 2 week stand-by in temps that drop below freezing on most nights?
That kind of voltage drop during a couple of weeks is perfectly acceptable. It's normal for Nimh cells to have some self discharge.
My pack already has 44.000kms/27.000 miles and in two weeks also loses about 5v and 2 bars.
According to that information, the pack should be ok. Good news. But seeing is believing.
Curiously I don't see any problem with the cold weather here in Portugal. But it never goes below 0º celsius (32ºF) in the Lisbon area.
But Nimh doesn't suffer as much as LifePo with the cold.
One more piece of info: based on the VIN, looks like it is one of the first few hundred made in Poland:
SZCAARDU1SAA005##
And I found this: http://www.voltforum.cat/voltforum/YaBB.pl?num=1257251983/0#0
So, is might be a Poland-made factory retooled bike for the UK??? Hard to read the old VIN scheme on that site above, but it looks like that's what the U1S means...
Hello Kocho.
When you try the scooter, give the maximum power, The acceleration must be continuous and without holes, if at one time there was a hole during acceleration it means that there are one or more battery defect. And this is true with the full charge but on the medium charge, the acceleration is lower but continuous. Never hole on full acceleration.
If you have never try scooter, be careful the Vectrix is heavy.
Good test drive.
Archi13
Sure, I'll try to "floor" it (give it full throttle), although I don't know if I should - have not been on a real motorcycle in 20 years (last time it was a 150cc bike). Test-riding smaller electric scooters (500w motor) recently was easy but unsatisfactory ;)
Follow-up: I got it home today. Looks to be in very good shape cosmetically. A short ride did not show anything odd. I did not feel comfortable going past 50mph as I have not ridden a bike in many years. But it got there without any strain. Battery voltage was 144 after a full charge when I got there. Temperature showed 60C, which I read might be high. Voltage dropped only one volt for the few minutes and maybe half mile I spent with it, and another 3 to 140V (and down to 5C after a 4hour ride on the trailer behind my car).
Interestingly, despite the serial number being so early in 2007 (mid-500), it has the grey waterproof connectors that were supposed to come on '08 models. Probably, when the battery was replaced under recall in 2008 Vectrix replaced these too. The kill switch is also the '08 style, with the kill position up. It's got the old style charging cord, I think. It has an old style all silver charger, not the Runke it seems. See this thread for the differences: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/7630-differences-between-2007-and-2008
Now off to do the registration paperwork and to update my motorcycle license. So, until then, I will not be riding it officially, but I'm sure I will try it "off road" to get used to it for the driving skills test.
Any thoughts on the 60C temp before my ride? I won't be charging it for a few days most likely due to bad weather, so won't be able to check temp until then. I suppose I need to get a timer so that the charger does not keep chugging all night long for no good reason...
Congratulations on your purchase!
Depending where in MD you are there's a couple of us in the area - myself and my recently Li-converted bike in NoVA, and MarylandBob with his Police special in MD. Both of us have CanBus cables although mine's in Cali with Steev at the moment.
Good to know I'm not alone in the DC area :) I am in Bethesda. I'll be interested to learn more about your Li conversion some day, as I will likely have to do it sooner or later too. I'm still not quite clear about the can bus cable - is that a special cable or just any odd USB to CAN cable would do plus the Vectrix software to use it? I'd be interested to learn about that too - I got quite an information overload from these forums and am still digesting what's what...
If mine does at least 25 miles on a charge with local roads only, I will probably be riding it to work in Tyson's every now and then - look for a red one in a month or so (will hopefully pass the driving tests and get my M license at the end of April).
Congratulations! In my opinion, it is one of the best electric scooters in the world, despite the chronic battery problems. Sure you'll enjoy it!
As I suspected, the battery has some damage. The temperature should not rise above 35 Degres, 60C points out a damaged cell with short capacity. Deep discharges reverses the voltage of that cell and gets prettty hot.
In order to sell the bike, I suspect the seller did a some deep discharges to wake up the battery. This is good to increase capacity and sell the vectrix, but stresses the bad cell!
Luckily you charger was never replaced, still ESD type: I recommend you ask for help with the Canbus cable, and upload the lairds firmware to keep the battery cool and slow down degradation. You should start to think about replacing bad NIMH cells, or preferably do a lithium upgrade.
The voltforum.cat is our assc site forum! Nice you find it, I did that excel with the Vins! About your bike, look for the date of build. It is placed on a white label sticker, placed on the front side of the battery compartment. Look trough the fork from the front side of the Vectrix, and try to find that stick. It will tell you when was it build.
It will look like this:
If people send me more vins, I'll complete the excel with them.
Got the bike out today for a ride. Started with full bars, but forgot to check voltage. It was 140V last night, so probably close to it.
Rode for 13 miles, ended up with 125V, half the bars on the battery, and 14C temp., which was actually the ambient temperature today, so the temp did not rise during the ride. I rode it fairly gently on some flat and some minor hills, keeping-up with traffic at 30-40mph with quite a few short bursts near full throttle in the 50+mph. Regenerated a lot but also had to use the brakes a lot, as it was busy city traffic with plenty of traffic lights that were mostly red for some reason :( I am about 200lb with helmet and some clothes on...
Is this reasonable? I will charge it now to see how the temp goes when it is done.
Went for a 13mile ride, mixed flat and some hills. City traffic, lots of stop and go on the traffic lights. Between them, mainly 30-40mph. I did quite a few short bursts up in the 50+mph. Forgot to measure starting voltage, but yesterday it was 140V at rest. Temp started at 14C and ended at 14C (same as the ambient temp). Full bars shown when I started, half when I ended. I am about 200lb on the bike.
Just plugged it in for its first charge to see how it fills-up and how the temperature goes. The fans in the rear kicked in immediately as the charge started, CP 153, speedo is at 107-108kmh. After 22 minutes of charging, the temp fluctuates between 14 and 15C (ambient is probably 13-14) and the voltage is up to 138 with 3 bars added (4 left to fill).
Edit: forgot to mention that at the end of the ride the bike would not go faster than about 50-55mph. I did not have a safe road to try max speed, just inched below 60mph at the beginning of the ride for a moment.
Does this look normal? I'll monitor the charge
My first charge is apparently complete. Temp only rose to 16-17C and voltage was 141 when I checked a few minutes after it had stopped charging. I plugged it again, this time it went to C pretty quick, at 3A current. This charge is still going on for 11 minutes now: temp is constant at 16C and voltage shows at 144 on the left (CC 154 on the speedo). Now, unplugged, turned the key to on, voltage is 143, temp 16C. I'll leave it alone and unplugged for the night. I did not track the time precisely, plus I missed the moment the charging process completed, but I think it might have charged for around an hour from the state in my previous post.
Question: on the motor, on the side of the disk brake, I noticed 2 of the 9 or so small bolts are missing. I can't open the service manual at the moment - what is this cover for? Is it for the gear? If yes, this means I probably need to check/replace the gear oil, which is probably good idea to do anyway... Don't see any leaks and the gear noise is not unlike what I hear in other people's videos - a pretty loud whine under acceleration and at high speeds...
Double post. Darn, that forum software...
Hello Kocho,
Testing it and what to make of the results.
1. Your bike's charging voltage of 153 is not good for the battery. This is Vectrix software and it wrote off both batteries and the Vectrix Corporation.
2. Leaving it on charge for extended periods, like after the charge is finished, WILL damage the charger (it begins to overheat despite doing no useful work).
3. Running the bike when the power starts to feel 'weak' indicates that the battery is very low and/or some cells are failing.
4. If the 'red light' comes on whilst riding then you have a very low charge remaining or failing cell(s) AND any further running (without a charge) is likely to cause battery damage.
5. Lots of 'regeneration' when the battery is near 'full' i.e. battery over 80% 'full', can cause battery damage.
6. Battery temperature more than 5 degrees C above ambient temperature, riding or charging, is another sign of something somewhere is wrong.
None of this is to suggest that you have made a mistake in your purchase or done anything wrong BUT, before doing much else consider the above comments and start the improvement work now. Nothing improves by itself, you have to do something.
Send me an e-mail via the forum if you want more information or to discuss anything. I am very busy but will try to help where I can.
Happy riding,
The Laird. (Telling it like it is, yet again)
Hi Kocho,
Congratulations on your purchase. I hope you get many miles out of you bike! I have almost reached 30.000 miles on the original battery but this is only possible if you treat the cells gently!
A few tips:
1) Try to charge shortly before you need to ride. The longer time between charging and riding the worse it is for the cells.
2) Try to ride daily! The cells need exercise daily :-) but avoid WOT when the battery is below 130 Volt.
3) Avoid the last 30 minutes of charge cycle of the stock Vectrix charge software.
4) Keep the cell temperature below 35 Celsius
5) Don't do deep discharges, it will only damage your cells. If you want to exercise them do it by having the lights on for a few days but not do it by riding. Riding at voltages below 120 Volt will cause damage.
6) Have fun while you ride, it is a great bike!
7) Listen to the Laird. He is always right ;-)
Once you go EV, Gas is history!
Hi Kocho,
Congratulations on joining the Electric Vehicle community. Your Vectrix has the Ni-MH battery with signs of aging. I suggest you buy a CANBUS cable and install the Lairds Ni-MH Firmware as soon as practical. Otherwise what is left of your battery will deterioate rapidly.
Thanks for the advice - I've emailed Laird, waiting for response. Today I took the bike out for a spin: after sitting in the garage for 3 days the voltage was 138V when I went out. Rode for just under 18 miles at 35-40mph, easy on the throttle, then the red light came on. I continued to ride for another mile or so at around 30mph, although the bike could go faster I felt. Very smooth and gentle on the throttle at that point :) Came home with 18.6 miles and 121V. Battery temp was 17C for the entire ride, about ambient temp in my garage. After 1 hour and 30 minutes of charging, the screen shows 145V, still 17C (the batt. is not heating up at all and the cooling air coming out below the bike is cool). There are 12 full bars showing.
Edit: 5 minutes shy of 2 hours of charge, the CP stage completed at 148V (pumping about 9.7A of current just before that moment). I was sitting there with 1 empty bar on the gauge, when the displays turned off, fans are still on. My guess is the last bar filled-up while I was not looking :) Temp. was 18C at this point, the exhaust air still cool. END Edit.
I was expecting twice the range, not just 18 miles at such gentle speeds and mild acceleration... Will see how it does tomorrow, having not sat unused for a few days...
Other than that, the ride is nice, for the most part and I'm getting comfortable with the bike (having not ridden a cycle for almost 20 years!). I am way too tall for the windshield, and my helmet sits in or a bit above the turbulence. Makes for a noisy ride, especially with some wind gusts. And I'm too tall for the seat - my knees are a bit in the way for the handlebars on tight turns (I almost feel better riding on the passenger seat!). It's almost a safety issue, if I hit my knee with the handles when I need to turn sharply... I whish there was a lower foot position option...
Hi, it is a shame you can't change the position of your feet on the scooter. Being tall makes you cramped.
With the charging, the reduced range is due to aging but also partly due to charging the bike and leaving it 3 days. King Charles suggested charging it just before use and I will stress the importance of this. These damaged Vectrix cells have a very high leakage. The battery will work better if left flat. It is tempting to recharge when comming back from a ride. Best to recharge when you know you are going to ride it. All cells will have a charge on them and less chance of further damage.
I got to get Laird's software! The CP portion of the charge did not seem to heat the batteries and filled all but 1 bar. The temp pretty much did not change, stayed at 17-18C. After the auto pause, however, only 30 minutes of CC charge raised the battery temp by almost 10C above that, at which point I unplugged it. I guess at the beginning of that charge some cells filled-up over capacity and started to heat-up even at the CC's lower 3amps charging method... The temp is slow to go down, it has been losing a degree every couple of hours since.
I'll see how it does tomorrow on a relatively fresh charge. I'm reasoning I shouldn't top it up before I go out, as I think overcharging is likely on an almost full battery when it blasts it with 10 Amps CP...
I'm buying a screen extender if I can't source the optional winter screen.
You soon get into the habit of moving your knees out of the way...don't worry about it. You'll get used to it.
18 miles is very poor. I guess you know now why the previous owner was eager to sell the bike. I hope you got some discount.
With an healthy pack you should get double that. The temperature increase in the CC stage is a good indicator that at least one cell shoud be damaged.
Nest step is to get some decent cells, open the bike, search for the damaged ones and replace them.
If it's just that, it could be a easy, fast and cheap fix to get the 40 miles range.
But be carefull if you do it alone as you will be dealing with dangerous currents.
Cross your fingers!
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