Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

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Sugarstorm
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Double post.
GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
Sorry about that.

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

I expected to have to upgrade/fix the battery sooner rather than later, so that's factored in the purchase price. I was, however trusting the seller to be truthful about the mileage he was getting. Probably a mistake, I know, but it is what it is. Will give a few more weeks to see if I can get it to 25 miles on a charge, then decide. 40 miles would be nice, though I can live quite OK with 25 solid miles of suburban commute for most of what I need it.

Finding replacement NiMH cells is not easy, I gather, especially in the US. Any leads? Some stuff might pop-up as part of the Vectrix US liquidation, maybe even a Li conversion or a whole bike...

Sugarstorm
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Hey, what have you got to loose?
Open the bike and look for dead cells. If you find them:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13649-selling-lots-gp30evh-nimh-vectrix-cells-30ahr

Nimh cells are prety common. We have hundreds here in Portugal. I'm sure you can find some in the US.
40 miles is possible with Nimh. Why upgrade if you can solve your imediate problem very fast and cheap?

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Well, those cells in the US are gone for a couple of months now. Plus, from reading the forums here, there does not seem to be an easy way to determine which cells are bad and why are they bad (i.e., able to be reconditioned or not). Only visibly swollen cells are easy to spot and that too requires complete disassembly of the battery...

Will see what results I get with Laird's software - I am afraid to complete my charging fully with the original software, so I am probably undercharging the pack and it is unbalanced. that reduces the capacity for me below the possible max... Today I rode for 22 miles down to 122V, then after a couple of hours rest, the battery recovered to 125V, and I rode it for another 2miles veeery slowly (10-15mph) around the neighborhood with 300lb load (me and my daughter), till the red light came at about 121V. All that 24 or so miles were from last evening's charge as described above (i.e., I stopped it at the beginning of the CC stage, with one empty bar). I am hopeful that if O can fully charge the battery safely with Laird's software, I might be able to get to 30 miles per charge. Then next year/over the winter, I might do a Li conversion with proper BMS installed.

elevatorguy
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

I may have some cells available in the near future, I am converting one of my VX to lithium. I have some extra cells on the shelf and will have the cells from the converted bike. I will be using some to restore a second bike but should have extras.

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

elevatorguy (and others): correct me if I'm wrong, but there does not seem to be a feasible way for the average Joe to identify bad batteries (except for obviously swollen ones). If that is the case, what good are spare cells, unless I get a full 102 count of good cells to in effect get a brand new battery? Looking at the relevant threads in the handbook, it looks like many hours and some specialized equipment that I don't own is necessary. I am an EE by education so I have a pretty good understanding of what's involved, but I don't practice and don't have the equipment and the time to manually fiddle with individual cells for weeks. And, unfortunately, I don't see a short-cut - so even if cells become available, I would not know how many I need or which ones to replace... Thoughts?

After a fresh charge with about 146 volts, and with the tire pressure set to spec (was rather low on my previous trial runs), I managed about 25 miles at 35-40 mph by the time the red light comes up at around 120-121 volts). That is without completing the CC cycle as it seems to heat-up the battery above 22C on ambient temp of 14-17C.

elevatorguy
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

I agree it can be a tedious task to do capacity tests etc. I ran the bike until the battery light came on and checked the voltages on the cells, any low cells I replaced, as well as the swollen ones. I could have tested the capacity of all 102 but didn't take the time.

JimmyB
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Kocho, if you do need NiMH cells you can have as many of mine as you need, they're just taking up room in the garage!

R
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

but I don't practice and don't have the equipment and the time to manually fiddle with individual cells for weeks.

There is an fast approach to this problem. It is not as good as testing each cell individually, but speeds up the process.
1) Buy an Imax B8 or similar RC charger for 40USD. It can handle up to 27 NIMH cells in series.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__25874__Genuine_IMAX_B8plus_Charger_Discharger_1_8_Cells_AUS_Warehouse_.html

2) Buy a pair of low voltage alarm devices for 4 USD each:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18588__Hobbyking_2_8S_Cell_Checker_with_Low_Voltage_Alarm.html

3)Divide the battery in 4 blocks

4)test 1 block (24 o4 27 cells):
4.1) Wire one LIPO cell alarm port to every 3 NiMH in series.
4.2) Set low voltage alarm to 2.9Volts.
4.3) perform a pair of cycles from 90% to 20% SOC at 3A
4.4)Perform a full discharge from 100% SOC at 3A
When the alarm beeps, you'll find the worst cell in the lipo area with a voltage tester. Have a look at the discharged capacity in the IMAX, if it is below 27-26Ah, replace it.
4.5)Test the rest of the blocks. Now
Hope it helps.
R

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

R, thanks for the info!
Jimmy - I will get in touch soon!

LithiumVectrix
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Hi Kocho,
Your Vectrix Scooter draws between 20 and 90 amps while driving sedately around town. The test suggested by R will not identify bad cells by discharging at 3 amps. Measuring amp/Hr capacity at low current doesn't give any usefull data relating to how the cells are performing in your Vectrix scooter. So save your time and money of buying the Imax charger unless your into R/C planes or cars.
The previous test mentioned by elevator guy of running until red light and then opening the bike and measuring the voltage of each cell does work. The best way to do this test is to charge the bike and leave it for a week. Then ride it till the red light. Open the bike and seperate the battery layers. Measure the voltage of each cell and replace any that are lower than the average. Replace any swollen cells. This identifies high leakage cells that cause the red light to come on early, which is a problem with old damaged NiMH cells. The Lairds NiMH firmware reduces this effect by charging the bike at a lower current of 6 amps and then a longer lower current charge to better balance the pack for riding.
The fix for your scooter is 1) Install the Laird NiMH Firmware for Vectrix Scooter. 2) Leave the bike flat and charge less than 1 day befor riding. 3) Find some replacement batteries. Test yours and replace.
Warning: These bikes catch fire if you continue to ride them with damaged batteries.

R
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Hi LithiumVectrix,

Thank you for your comments. I'm not engineer, just an architect: Electronics is not my professional field, I'm sure 50% of all the conclusions I assume are wrong.

In order to acquire better knowledge of the NIMH battery, let me discuss about a pair of points:

The test suggested by R will not identify bad cells by discharging at 3 amps.

Not at all. You are pointing out two different kind of bad cells:
1- Reduced capacity cells (total energy stored): The ones I've looked for to replace when I was in trouble.
2- Reduced discharging capacity (instant power): the ones you are worried about.
A NIMH cell may be able to discharge hi amps normally, but if it has reduced Ah capacity, it will reach 0.00 Volts sooner than the rest of cells, compromising real range.
Then ride it till the red light. Open the bike and separate the battery layers. Measure the voltage of each cell and replace any that are lower than the average.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but damaged NIMH cells may recover to "normal" voltage as soon as you stop applying a discharge current, don't they? What difference makes doing your method?:
The best way to do this test is to charge the bike and leave it for a week. Then ride it till the red light.

Warning: These bikes catch fire if you continue to ride them with damaged batteries.

true! Avoid riding the vectrix if you range drop below 15-20 miles.
LithiumVectrix
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Hi Kochi,
When NiMH batteries get old and damaged 2 things occur. Their internal resistance rises. They develop high internal leakage or self discharge. This why we always say recharge your scooter before riding. Their Amp/Hr rate only decreases slightly which is why the 3 amp, 1/10C Amp/Hr test is not useful.
If you ride till red light the weakest cells actually reverse polarise. After the time required to open the bike and test them they won't return to the same voltage as the cells that are good. You will notice I have said replace the cells with the voltage below the average.
I personally know 2 NiMH scooters that have caught fire and there are others on this Vectrix forum. The Vectrix design has a temperature sensor on every 4th or 5th battery. Battery can catch fire before the Batt Hot light comes on. I haven't seen a fire yet in a Li-Ion converted Vectrix.

Mik
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

I'm in the process of testing about 230 Vectrix NiMH cells to build them into a good battery.

Reading your comments above, I'll add in a 130A test at then end as a last check, once I have 8 and 9 cell modules combined from cells which I think are in good shape.

My experience is largely with Vectrix batteries that suffered moderate to severe damage to some cells before actual old age or high mileage effects could occur. That might explain why in my experience, good capacity at 2-20A equates to good performance right after charge.

Good capacity (>26Ah @ 2A) after 12 day self-discharge at about 26degC equates to a good cell.

Here is how I test them (they have been standing for years, some are near zero volt):

Combine cells to 34 - 36 cell batteries (2x8 + 2x9 cells or 4x9 cells)

Charge at 3A for 12hrs, then at 1A for 12hrs.

Immediate discharge at 2A until some cells reverse. If they reverse way too early, jump them and continue with the rest. 25Ah discharged is enough. When using the CBA3, I set the cutoff voltage to 1.25V x number of cells. Reduce by 1.25V if DCG ends without a cell reversal (easily visible on discharge graph).

Charge at 3A for 11-12hrs.

Immediate discharge at 2A (1.25v x number of cells cutoff, repeat with 1.25V less if required).

Charge at 3A for 11-12hrs.

Disconnect and let self-discharge for 12 days.

After 12 days (may need much longer in cold climate) discharge (as 34-36s battery) at 2A (to 1.25V x "number of cells" cutoff), then again to 1.25V lowered cutoff if no reversals. Then continue to discharge individual cells at 3A to 0.7V cutoff.

Cells with more than 26Ah capacity in the 12-day self-discharge test get a "Pass" for the new battery.

Charge at 3A for 6hrs (for storage while testing more cells).

Once I have combined the "Pass" cells into 8 and 9 cell modules, I'll do a last test under about 120-130A load:
Charge module to full (or cycle twice if the wait was more than a couple of months), then measure individual cell voltages manually with a digital multi-meter while discharging at 120-130A. Any weak cells should show up as having a reduced voltage under load.

If they pass that as well, they'll be fine.

It's tedious, but I might finally get a good battery that way. Combined with the Lairds software, it may them last a long time.....

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Thanks, LiVex, what you say makes sense to me. Would weak cells reverse even when the voltage is 120V and the bike is ridden really slowly and gently (15-30mph with veeeery gentle acceleration)? Red light for me seems to come around 120V or so, but when I get below 125V or so I no longer push the bike to accelerate fast, being mindful that some cells might be nearing empty. Hopefully I'll have the Laird's software installed soon to keep the charging process cooler with the warmer weather coming.

As suggested, I started to charge it overnight with the delay timer so that it is done right before riding it. By that time, it is done with the CP cycle, the following cool off, and a few minutes, perhaps 30 of CC at 3amps. This gives me 144-146V charge and seems to keep the battery temp low, just 2-4C above ambient, which is still around 16-18C in my garage. It rises to about 24 by the time I get to work 10-12 miles later and I'm left with well over half the bars. Seems that I can comfortably make 25 miles round trip with a few hours break. About 70% of these miles are at 30-40 mph, a dozen traffic lights, with maybe 3-5 miles at 60+mph and a couple of miles at 50mph. The 60-65mph segment I do on a fresh battery (so nowhere near full throttle), then take the back roads / downhill on the freeway on the way back, so again, even with the weak battery I don't do full throttle. Today I just did about 25 miles around town with my daughter on the back (300+lb together) - no red light yet and volts are around 124, so seems to be a pretty consistent range...

The software on the bike seems buggy. Sometimes it shows random temperatures. Usually it shows 21C after I start it, and it takes a few seconds to register the actual temperature. It on occasion shows wired voltage - showed 210V this morning momentarily, then changed to the 145 that it was. Do others see this behavior?

Also, does anyone know for sure if the bike is regenerating when I let go off the throttle so it is in the neutral position? Or do I need to cause it to start regen with the throttle beyond neutral? Btw., I'm not doing regen until my voltage goes down to about 135 and then do it only gently (avoid full power regen, and especially at higher speeds - less regen, as advised here, to avoid overcharging).

Mik
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

You need to leave the throttle alone during booting up, or it might indeed regenerate brake in the zero position. Hanging a helmet on the throttle etc can interfere with its auto calibration during booting.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

NullPointer
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Kocho, welcome!

I have been riding Vectrix to my workplace in Bethesda for several years. Would love to meetup with you. I have an '07 with the original NiMH pack, which now needs some cell replacement. I have some cells, but still need to drag Bob out to my place for some help :) If you are interested in replacing some cells on your bike, perhaps this could be done in conjunction.

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

You need to leave the throttle alone during booting up, or it might indeed regenerate brake in the zero position. Hanging a helmet on the throttle etc can interfere with its auto calibration during booting.

Thanks, good to know. Mine is NOT regenerating at 0, judging from the voltage levels. I did not have Laird's software before so I could not see the voltages in motion. Now I can and can tell it is not generation while coasting. I was curious though, because it does not seem to just glide - I can feel quite a bit of resistance that seems to originate from the motor. Probably due to the magnetic forces back there...

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Kocho, welcome!

I have been riding Vectrix to my workplace in Bethesda for several years. Would love to meetup with you. I have an '07 with the original NiMH pack, which now needs some cell replacement. I have some cells, but still need to drag Bob out to my place for some help :) If you are interested in replacing some cells on your bike, perhaps this could be done in conjunction.

I'd be happy to meet you too! I live in downtown Bethesda and since I work from home on many days, if you work nearby I can meet you during your lunch break or after work. PM/email me to get in touch.

I would like to swap out a few cells too - I suspect I got some that are low capacity. Not sure I'm ready for a Li conversion yet, so improving the NiMh pack seems like a good interim step. I got mechanical tools and know how to use them;) and a multimeter. Used to have an engine hoist, but sold it. Can rig-up something to lift the batteries though. I also need to replace the rear tire and am thinking of replacing the gear oil at some time too, sooner rather than later ...

Aircon
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Mine is NOT regenerating at 0,...

Neither does mine....I think that's normal.

I've only ridden two Vectrix, and both needed the throttle turned before regen started.

LithiumVectrix
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Hi Kocho, I am glad to hear that you have found the way to ride your scooter the distance you need to get to work. Charging the bike the night before is the best way to get range out of a damaged Vectrix NiMH battery. It's good to read that you are not afraid to open the bike and do some work yourself. With the help of a friend you can fix the NiMH battery and restore its range.
To test the battery is simple and follow this procedure. Charge the bike fully till firmware shuts of the charge. Leave the bike for 2 weeks without riding. Ride the bike close to home at moderate speeds until the red light comes on or battery temperature rises to 15c above ambient. Ride home and open the battery compartment. Separate the battery blocks and test the voltage of each individual battery. You will note an average voltage for all the individual batteries. Any batteries that have a voltage reading of 20% of less than the average remove from the pack. Any batteries that are swollen remove from the pack. Rebuild the pack with what is left plus the replacements you have found. You will note that there are compression straps around the battery blocks. These will have to be replaced as the batteries do expand under normal use. We hope your replacement batteries are OK. They can't be worse than what you are taking out. Reassemble and charge the scooter for a test ride.
You should continue to not charge the scooter after riding and charge the night before riding. This applies to NiMH battery Vectrix only. This balances the pack at charging and does not give time for the poor individual batteries which have high self discharge to unbalance the pack. You also get the longest range and less battery deterioration as the pack will have its highest charge level.

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

Thanks for the info! My office is about 11-13 miles one way with 2-8miles of those at highway speeds, the rest at 30-40mph. With the Laird's firmware I'm back to 62mph and I miss my old firmware with the 68mph limit - 62 barely cuts it when traffic is moving good... I do like the extra "oomph" at lower speeds with the old firmware. I can make the round-trip fine if I take the route with fewer highway segments, but I really need to watch my throttle, and it takes 15minutes longer each eay. Folks here drive quite aggressively, so one needs to blend with traffic or gets cut off. So I usually charge both at home and at work, so I don't have to watch the throttle as much - staying well above 120V while moving, keeping-up with traffic at the speed limit or a bit above it, with only the occasional drop to 120V for brief moments of acceleration to merge/overtake.

I also have make a lot of very short 'round the neighborhood trips, where having pure electric is really handy - no warm-up needed, slow speeds, lots of stops...

Unfortunately, half the week I can't plan ahead to "pre-charge" at just the right time. That's where Li would really help, being able to charge when I can and keep it charged. My NiMh seems to lose charge fast and it also warms-up unnecessarily after the charge if it stays plugged in and I don't ride it.

MEroller
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

The way I understand the Vectrix-patented "throttle" grip I am pretty sure 0 throttle allows coasting (of course while still turning the motor, gearbox and all), while active regen only starts when the grip is turned below it's 0-position. That's normal.

My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW

Kocho
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

The way I understand the Vectrix-patented "throttle" grip I am pretty sure 0 throttle allows coasting (of course while still turning the motor, gearbox and all), while active regen only starts when the grip is turned below it's 0-position. That's normal.

Yes, that's what mine is doing too. The reason I asked was that, at first, I did not have a voltage readout to confirm that AND it felt like it was not coasting nearly as effortlessly as I hoped it would.

Now I can see the voltage show no regen at coasting and reven only befins (quite clearly) at negative throttle.

Because the motor and planetary gear can't be disconnected for coasting, it created noticeable resistance, which I think feels within normal, given what's going on there (my tire pressure is what it needs to be).

All hybrid cars I've driven do regen at 0 throttle position when coasting and have a partial-throttle position where they don't. And at that position they coast better (for longer distances) than my Vectrix.

kingcharles
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

The Vectrix throttle is amazing. I wonder where that patent is going to end up now that they are chapter 7

Once you go EV, Gas is history!

Mik
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Re: Quick Help Needed with Purchasing VX-1

I believe (and have no proof whatsoever for it) that the most efficient coasting method for the VX-1 is to give a small amount of throttle, enough to spin the motor at the same speed that it is being forced to do anyway. That way, friction is reduced, coasting distance increased and noise is at the lowest possible level.
Use your ears to find the right amount of throttle, it only needs very little.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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