My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

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allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi Randy,
That power lead/cord was built for me by a fellow VifV member. It was a little pricey but I think the price was good for the quality of the components and the time he spent making it. I would be lost without it now as there are very few public standard sockets/outlets out there, but there are heaps of type 2 sockets around. It works brilliantly and has never failed me. The 'vectrix side' of the cord has a switch on it and also contains the electronics to tell the outlet post to start charging. If you like I will dig out the details of the cord for you, if I can find them.
Allan

Electric traction is the future.

allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Here is the link to the original post for the Type 2 charging lead - http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13357-mennekes-type-2-plug-officially-not-vectrix

Electric traction is the future.

JayP
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi Allan-

I just did most of my conversion today.

It turned out to be more simple than I thought.

The only part I don't have figured out is the relay. Some folks are talking about adding a relay so that the charger will shut off automatically (I think that's why).

Did you add a relay? I didn't see it in your steps.

BTW, I also plugged two holes in the frame behind the front wheel that could possibly allow water into the area. This was recommended by Matt/antiscab.

Thanks for sharing!

I will add photos when I am allowed to start posts.

Joe
Joe

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2008 Vectrix

allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi JayP,
Relay ? I have no idea what that is or what it is for. The charging sequence seems to be working just fine with TheLairds software so I am not sure what that is all about.
I'm glad you've joined the Vectrix/Leaf club - the benefits are well worth the cost.
Allan

Electric traction is the future.

Kocho
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi JayP,
Relay ? I have no idea what that is or what it is for. The charging sequence seems to be working just fine with TheLairds software so I am not sure what that is all about.
I'm glad you've joined the Vectrix/Leaf club - the benefits are well worth the cost.
Allan

A charging relay is a really good idea, especially with ESD chargers (running the original or the Laird's software) - these tend to lock-up and can overcharge and destroy your expensive Li pack, which, is more sensitive than the NiMh to overcharging and might cause some serious damage when overcharged. I've observed that happen on my two bikes with ESD chargers and the Laird's software on occasion (for the NiMh bikes, don't know if it still happens with his Li version) . Have not seen it happen on my last bike with the latest Runke charger and David's custom software (have clocked over a 1000 miles on that new charger after my Leaf conversion, which is similar to the amount of miles I put on the two ESD chargers before it when I saw them lock-up and not stop charging about 4 times in that period).

I used a simple and cheap timer to a similar effect as a relay, basically, undercharging a bit most of the time to be on the safe side (by estimating in my head how long to charge, based on how empty the pack is when the charge starts).

Read here for discussion about relays (post #69 and thereabouts):

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13767-nissan-leaf-modules-li-conversion-questions?page=2

The relay referenced there:

http://fr.rs-online.com/web/p/relais-de-surveillance/0261987/

antiscab
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

A charging relay is a really good idea, especially with ESD chargers (running the original or the Laird's software) - these tend to lock-up and can overcharge and destroy your expensive Li pack, which, is more sensitive than the NiMh to overcharging and might cause some serious damage when overcharged.

The ESD charger locks up and charges forever with no voltage limit due to a hardware fault - happens regardless of what firmware is loaded

We still haven't found the exact source of the issue, but one user did notice a dip in the 12v supply at the moment of lockup

when using an ESD charger, a redundant method of automatically shutting down the charger is very necessary

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hello everyone. Well its been 6 months since I did my simple Leaf Cell conversion and I am about to embark on a big trip to the Isle Of Man TT Races in a couple of days. At the moment everything on the bike is exactly the same as when it was installed 6 months ago. I have had no charging problems, the batteries are stable and don't move about, the pack is charging to 157v without fail and I continually get 80 to 90 (100 if I'm very careful) miles of range with no problems at all. This will be a big test for my Vectrix as I will be charging away from home for the entire week, utilizing my standard three pin plug, 16amp blue commando adaptor and my excellent J1772 cable adaptor. I will also be zipping around the TT course and over the mountain section - can't wait :-) When I get back I will give the trusty Vectrix a simple strip down and treat it to a well earned thorough clean and service. So hows my simple conversion going ? It's gone so well that I am thinking that I might not even put a BMS in it - I know that might sound daft but the installed Lairds software works a treat and I trust it 100%, anyway, its just a thought. I'll keep you all up to date with my progress. If you are interested, I'll be posting pictures and news on my Facebook page, find me under 'allan john bairstow'. Allan

Electric traction is the future.

Kocho
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Good to hear! Make sure you video you lap(s) 'round the island and share it with us!!!

The only reason to have BMS in our conversions would be to detect and protect the pack in case of a catastrophic individual cell failure. In normal operation, the cells seem to stay balanced very well and do not need to be rebalanced constantly. It seems it would be years/many thousands of miles before balancing is needed. I've ridden close to 1,500 miles on my Leaf conversion already and the cells are just as well balanced as they were on the first day.

My range on 18 cells (you got 19) is around 60 miles in mixed riding (half of it at highway speeds over 60 mph and most of the rest often well above 40mph). At 60+ mph my range is a comfortable 40 miles highway; in the city at below 40mph I have no idea as I never ride that much in the city - it would probably push 100 miles. I charge to 147-148V and go down to 130-135V (going below 130V gets me into the deeper discharge areas that I try to avoid). Basically, I am using at most about 40Ah out of the rated 60Ah battery capacity, which should help extend the life of the battery over many tens of thousands of miles - if the Leaf specs on its battery aging are right, then our packs should last even longer than they are projected to last in the Nissan cars - we are using them even more conservatively than they are used in the cars. I think we are using perhaps 60% of the capacity vs. the 80-90% that they use in the car on a typical full-empty cycle to get their advertised range.

allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi Kocho,
I nearly forgot to mount my video camera, good job you reminded me ! I'm going to push my luck and try to go around the course twice on one charge - well, we'll see how it goes.
Allan

Electric traction is the future.

pyjohnson
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

..... I am about to embark on a big trip to the Isle Of Man TT Races in a couple of days....

Me too, but I'm not going to be on my vectrix :(

If you get flagged down by a blue BMW bike it'll probably be me, good luck and stay safe.

Regards,
Peter

-----------------------------------------------------------
Central Scotland

Kocho
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Let's see how the Vectrix will do compared to the Bramo (Victory/Parker) and the other e-bikes ;)

"Racing team riders William Dunlop and Lee Johnston rode one lap of the course, achieving average lap speeds of 104.185mph and 105.185mph respectively. Dunlop completed his lap in 21:43.717 minutes while Johnston was 12 seconds faster, crossing the line after 21:31.322 minutes."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/victory-e-bikes-top-100-130051816.html

and a video from Victory:
http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/isle-of-man

Kocho
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

So, any video of your lap(s)?

Hi Kocho,
I nearly forgot to mount my video camera, good job you reminded me ! I'm going to push my luck and try to go around the course twice on one charge - well, we'll see how it goes.
Allan

On a separate thought, now that custom motor controller low voltage protection and regen limit and charger software is even more readily available than before (through "team Laird", in addition to the previously available options from David at vectrixsupport.com and the fuel free motors folks in Portugal), I have to agree that 19 cells (and why not 20?) will make a "better" conversion pack than 18. At least in terms of having a bike that operates near its full potential more of the time. My observation is that on my bike with the 18 cell conversion, I get the best power when it is nearly fully charged, for me from about 146/147V down to about 140V+. Unfortunately, the voltage drop per miles traveled at the beginning of a trip is big there, because the discharge curve of the Leaf cells is non-linear and steep near the fully charge state. So that feel of "full power" does not last long - perhaps something like less than 10 highway miles by the time my pack settles into its more linear discharge region below 140V or wherever the discharge curve begins to straighten. There power is consistent and strong after this point over quite a few miles, perhaps as many as another 40 highway miles, as the voltage decreases somewhat linearly and slower per mile travelled vs. the fast drop in the beginning of the trip.

Once past the 135V or so volts mark, voltage again begins to decrease increasingly faster. Just a few miles after the first 50 or so miles traveled, and voltage is going down fast, and with it the ability to have max power. I am not talking controller-limited reduced-power mode, just that with 135V you now get less power than wit 145V for the same current drawn from the battery.

So, what a 19 or 20 cell pack will do for you is that you can charge them to a lower SoC vs. where the 18 cell pack is charged to get to the same 150V or so initial voltage at the beginning of the trip. And the 20 cell pack will start the trip in the somewhat linear range of discharge, so you will have consistent power delivery from the get go and for your entire trip vs. with the 18 cell pack. That's because your entire trip will be at a higher voltage. Plus, you will tax the battery less, using less of its capacity for each charge: charging to lower max voltage but getting out the same capacity per charge.

Of course, that 20 cell pack will be $2-300 dollars more expensive and a bit heavier, and might not be possible to drop as one piece in the frame but have to assemble the last cells inside the frame, but that I think is a worthy drawback. The benefit isn't so great to me as to make me go and upgrade my pack and software right away, but if one is starting from scratch, I think it is worth considering over the 18 cell pack.

allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi Kocho,
Unfortunately not :-( But it wasn't through lack of trying, every time I went round the course the mountain section was closed due to some idiot riding beyond his capability and crashing, causing that section to close while they cleaned up the mess (usually about 3 to 4 hours). Having said that, I do have footage of some of the course but it is at normal road speeds and it is not very interesting. On the plus side, with these batteries the bike is more than capable of going around the course more than twice. The whole trip was a joy on electric power. The best I can do is show you a picture of my Vectrix at TheLaird's house with some of his bikes.
TT IOM 2015 (19).jpg
I'll sort through the video and see if there is anything interesting to share and I'll upload it to my dropbox folder.

Electric traction is the future.

BLUESTREAK
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

THAT'S my favorite color "BLUE" and my next color is "SILVER"2015-03-21 14.15.43.jpg2015-06-07 11.57.02.jpg

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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi I live near Las Vegas and want to purchase a new Nissan Leaf battery pack sold for the Vectrix. I have a 2007 that I want to use again. Can you tell me how you changed the charger software? I'd be so happy to use this bike again. Thank you.

E Power

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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Great picture, it is nice to catch a glimpse of Thelaird's collection!

fgramsden
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi I have a 2007 Vectrix I want to convert. You mentioned changing the charger software. Can you tell me how you did that? Thank you.

E Power

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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Yes I was also happy to see his collection and I belive that's him standing with his beard, him and I are almost the same age almost 72.

R
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

fgramsden, wellcome.
First you must know what charger you have inside your vectrix.
2007-2009 vectrix have ESD aluminium charger. Post 2009 units have the gold RUNKE charger

ESD: you'll able to see these connectors, http://visforvoltage.org/forum/14055-multiple-vectrix?page=1#comment-75166
Runke: connectors cannot be accessed from lower fork hole.
will look like this:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13109-looking-latest-software-runkerunky-charger

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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

It has been exactly 1 year since I last checked my batteries. In January 2015 each battery held 8.16v, today (17/01/2016) I checked them again and they are hold exactly the same 8.16v. This is without any BMS or anything other than TheLairds software. I am over the moon. To top it all off I also checked the battery connections and general condition - I am happy to report that they are all good, no movement has occurred, no terminals have become loose and all the batteries are nice and tight in situ (remember that they are held in place with rubber sheet that I lined the housing with, no bolts needed). It's now time to treat the bike to a well earned service, some accessories and minor upgrades.

Electric traction is the future.

BLUESTREAK
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

That's good news about your batterys staying in good bal. after a year. THANKS.2015-12-28 10.11.21_0.jpg

allanbairstow
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

Hi everyone,
Just thought I'd update you on my simple Leaf conversion share some thoughts now that it is just coming up to two years old.
1) Voltage - The voltage is holding steady at 157v.
2) Range - Maximum = 102 miles, general normal day riding = easy 80+ miles.
3) BMS - never installed and not needed. Having a BMS is bullsh*t - don't waste your time and money.
4) Movement - The pack has not moved 1 millimeter in two years. I don't have bolts holding it together, it is simply wedged.
5) This bike is brilliant in this form and can go twice around the TT course with charge to spare.

Whats next ?
I now have a spare 2008 VX1 with dead batteries & a stock pile of old laptop 18650's. Yep, that's right - My 'Simple' 18650 Conversion - is coming in 2017
I can't be bothered to solder 1000's of cells together so I am going to put them in removable holders, this will allow any troublesome cells to be 'popped out' and replaced simply without the need to desolder an entire pack (why would anyone want to do that ?). No gluing, very little soldering, no BMS, simple battery connections, new software and whos knows what else.
See you soon ladies and gentlemen.

Electric traction is the future.

BLUESTREAK
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

HI ALLEN, my leaf cells have also have stayed in bal. with/out BMS/ keep us posted.this is my project that i am working on now, these are 82 ah, cells for my son's trike.2016-09-02 14.04.21_0.jpg2016-09-02 14.05.06_0.jpg

fgramsden
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

I have a 2007 Vectrix. Can you tell me how you got the charger software for leaf cells.? I have the stock silver charger. Also can you tell me what kind of charger you use to individually charge the leaf cells. I'd love to get my Vectrix going again.

E Power

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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

HI FGRAMSDEN, I just bumped up the (thread) by (THE LAIRDS TEAM) this is where you get the firmware to fit your needs.the best way to charge your leaf cells would be to hook all cell in parallel and they will all come into perfect balance the hook them in series and put them back in the VECTRIX and start charging with the on-board silver (ESD) charger.

R
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

3) BMS - never installed and not needed. Having a BMS is bullsh*t - don't waste your time and money.

Yes, the cells SEEM to stay in balance due to their Hi-quality construction, and correct factory pairing to match internal resistances. However sooner or later they will get out of balance ( the question is not *IF* they will get out of balance, but WHEN:1 year? 10 years? who knows!). If you don't want BMS, at least consider to install voltage monitors: you'd be able check if all cells' voltages hang around correct values while ridding.

would be to hook all cell in parallel
Sure, leave the cells in paralel for 1-2 days. look at the laird box, now you have MC 1014b with control cruise enabled. (thanks Framuga)
Aircon
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

look at the laird box, now you have MC 1014b with control cruise enabled. (thanks Framuga)

Link please?

R
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

the laird Box: https://app.box.com/s/8z1c1b9009abwyv5r2sl044uvjw1kwev
Anybody can stick this link on top of the forum, please?

Aircon
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

the laird Box: https://app.box.com/s/8z1c1b9009abwyv5r2sl044uvjw1kwev
Anybody can stick this link on top of the forum, please?

ok. I'm confused. I want mc1014b.hex, which is what I have now. My scooter is fully charged at 147v and is 60ah, but looking at those files, it seems the MC has a lot to do with that, not just the charger files.

So,my question....if I want the same mc1014b config as i have now, but with cruise control operating, is there an appropriate file please?

R
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Re: My 'simple' Leaf cell conversion

So,my question....if I want the same mc1014b config as i have now, but with cruise control operating, is there an appropriate file please?

So, you haven't checked the box... Go to the box, and look for your MC1014b version with CC...

box.jpg

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