VECTRIX_post here

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GrooveConnection
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VECTRIX_post here

Just an invitation to open a longer Vectrix thread...as it is appearing on the real world market, we can bring in all news and pertinent articles here.

I'll go first ;-)

http://www.sharecast.com/cgi-bin/sharecast/story.cgi?story_id=1594047

andrew
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

Check out the article linked to from this thread posted by borgbike here.

Why the older NiMH batteries instead of more powerful Lithium-ion and Lithium-polymer batteries? ?Nickel Metal Hydride is a well-understood and safe battery technology,? explains Sales Manager Frank Papa. ?Current Lithium batteries have some potential safety issues. Vectrix is very experienced with Nickel Metal Hydride, there?s a lot of very sophisticated battery and thermal management technology in the Maxi to get the most out of it.?...

Its only drawbacks can be traced back to the battery ? and battery technology is surging forward at a breakneck pace. Before too long we?ll be seeing genuine electric sportsbikes and tourers, and once the batteries are up to it these bikes will be as powerful and fast as you like.

This seems to be a huge disadvantage for the bike. I hope their engineering team is working on using a new lithium technology. While it is true that lithium-ion cobalt, and lithium-polymer are very dangerous and explosive, the new lithium technologies are much more advanced and much safer. They might prove to be as safe as NiMH. In any case developing a full battery system takes time (including assembling battery pack with BMS and charger), testing it, and figuring out how to manufacture it so I expect they won't switch any time soon.

I rode on a Vectrix back at EVS20, and back then NiMH was the best technology for all practical purposes. But a lot has changed, and its really Vectrix's fault for not getting their product to market sooner. Now, 4 yrs after EVS20 they are just finally getting them on the market and theres newer better battery technology if someone can just implement it. I predict that we'll see a copy cat bike on the market soon with better specs using a new lithium technology if the Vectrix sells well.

And I honestly wouldn't spend $12k on a bike that doesn't use a lithium technology with my budget, because of battery life. Some of the new lithium technologies might far outlast NiMH in battery life. But if I had the money I would be one of the first to buy a Vectrix.

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reikiman
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

I made a comment somewhere that while talking with the blokes at the Stanford EV Rally they said in 1-2 yrs they would be able to offer a lithium-xyzzy pack and that they designed the bike knowing that in 1-2 yrs some of their customers will want to switch, and that they designed it for an easy switch.

- David Herron, http://davidherron.com/

davew
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

I predict that we'll see a copy cat bike on the market soon with better specs using a new lithium technology if the Vectrix sells well.

Perhaps, but it is likely to be equivalent in specs only. I don't see anyone stepping up to the same level of design and testing that Vectrix has obviously put into their machine. On the other hand I hope someone does. Competition is good for everyone.

lithium-xyzzy pack

Careful, Dave. You're showing your age. :-) "You are in a maze of twisty batteries all alike."

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GrooveConnection
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

I agree that NiMH isn't very much up to snuff in terms of raw data, range and internal resistance increase over distance driven.
However, I have read numerous posts of TOYOTA RAV 4 EV owners who quote that even after 80.000 and above miles driven, they can't notice the packs giving out in any way!
The only thing bothering me about the Vectrix is that annoying whine they have coming from the transmission, I believe.
I have contacted their VP of sales and have arranged for a testride later in November. Hope they got their quality issues sort of under control by then....

It's the same thing for me if a friend says :"What, you bought this XYZ computer? Why didn't you wait for 2 months until the XYZ2 comes out?"
Well, my answer is always: I don't like bugs. Add a year or more to each new surfacing item. Look at the Prius - recalls all over the place till they had it right.

Price? Yup that's a serious issue. I am not surprised that they reported seriously slower initial sales and their stocks went pretty much to hell right now.

The price point of $ 7900.- would have been a better choice.
I don't mind it, however, since I know that I would be investing in a market that can allow those prices to drop significantly over the following decade.

Oliver
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

Is this a Vectrix or Battery thread?
There should also be a Vectrix Club in the V is for Voltage Community EV Clubs very soon.

andrew
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

Oliver, are you going to purchase one? It would really be awesome to have someone in the community here give a detailed review. Unfortunately I don't think there are any members here with one, or at least they haven't posted about it.

GrooveConnection, thats very true about the RAV4 batteries. It should be noted that NiMH are quite a leap from lead-acid on all accounts. They are like the battery that was supposed to revolutionize BEVs but never did. I think they are great batteries that have been proven in the market for a long time. If you go to your corner store and get rechargeable batteries, chances are they are NiMH. They have been proven very safe in commercial use and LiFePO4 have yet to be proven in the commercial market to my knowledge.

Even though LiFePO4 are arguably the next generation I'm sure there are plenty of bugs to work out. For instance, what happens if one cell gets ignited from an external source, and how does it ignite the rest of the pack? I've seen Lithium cobalts burn and explode and it ain't pretty. I hope LiFePO4 don't burn like that. Add that to the fact that you need to design and manufacturer a system that works. By system I mean BMS, charger, and battery pack. All that needs to be extensively tested and engineered for it to function reliably. On paper things can be very deceiving and in the real world there can be a million things that can go wrong.

TBH I'm very surprised the vectrix is selling at all in the USA with those prices. By selling at all I mean like more than 10 sales a month. I thought almost all of their sales would be in Europe because of the higher gas prices, they are more prone to use 2-wheelers for transportation, and because of some of the tax incentives and city restrictions to larger vehicles.

---
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[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
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borgbike
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

TBH I'm very surprised the vectrix is selling at all in the USA with those prices. By selling at all I mean like more than 10 sales a month. I thought almost all of their sales would be in Europe because of the higher gas prices, they are more prone to use 2-wheelers for transportation, and because of some of the tax incentives and city restrictions to larger vehicles.

Yeah! Where's our tax incentives?! You'd think that with 65 percent of our oil foreign purchased now, it would be in security interest of the country to be promoting electric vehicles. Oregon appears to have nothing for two wheelers. I'm still trying to figure out if the Vectrix would qualify for a federal tax credit, measly though it is.

reikiman
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

TBH I'm very surprised the vectrix is selling at all in the USA with those prices. By selling at all I mean like more than 10 sales a month. I thought almost all of their sales would be in Europe because of the higher gas prices, they are more prone to use 2-wheelers for transportation, and because of some of the tax incentives and city restrictions to larger vehicles.

Yeah! Where's our tax incentives?! You'd think that with 65 percent of our oil foreign purchased now, it would be in security interest of the country to be promoting electric vehicles. Oregon appears to have nothing for two wheelers. I'm still trying to figure out if the Vectrix would qualify for a federal tax credit, measly though it is.

Well, you have to remember we have President Enron, Vice President Halliburton, Secretary of State Chevron ... This is the administration bought and paid for by big oil ... and we have the illegal war in the middle east to prove that big oil is driving the policies of the current administration.

jdh2550_1
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

It should be noted that NiMH are quite a leap from lead-acid on all accounts. They are like the battery that was supposed to revolutionize BEVs but never did. I think they are great batteries that have been proven in the market for a long time. If you go to your corner store and get rechargeable batteries, chances are they are NiMH. They have been proven very safe in commercial use

Yep, NiMH's are great and could have been a great boon to BEVs when introduced around 10 years ago. They were designed by a Michigan inventor. GM bought the rights for the EV-1. GM canned the EV-1 and sold the rights to... Chevron. Chevron formed Cobasys (joint ownership with the original patent owner). Cobasys aggressively protects its patents (no crime there) - the unfortunate thing is that they refuse to license the technology for large capacity applications such as BEVs.

How aggressively does Cobasys protect it's patent? It successfully sued Panasonic and Toyota and received about $30M dollars and an order banning Panasonic from producing the RAV-4 batteries. Shortly after that Toyota stopped selling the RAV-4 due to "lack of demand". Which is strange seeing as at one point they said they couldn't build enough of them.

Ahh, the wonders of capitalism! Lest anyone say "stupid conspiracy theory!" I'd point out that this isn't a conspiracy - it was all a normal course of business and typical stupid turf protection. No conspiracy required. Of course you have to wonder why the court case was sealed and why Toyota, Chevron and Cobasys are so tight-lipped about it all.

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evmenace
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Re: VECTRIX_post here


Need to change the subject of this thread to Batteries or something.

PJD
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

It seems obvious to me that a limited number of powerful corporations want to position themselves to firstly, prevent the marketing of EV technologies while there is huge money to be made with the upcoming big oil price runup, then be uniquely positioned to pretty much own and control the whole market and supply chain when the need for EV's becomes inevitable. No surprise here, Microsoft diabolically did the same thing when personal computing came on the scene. Oil companies did the same thing in the early 20th century as the car came on the scene. They're called "trusts", and there used to be laws against them, but by todays standards even trust-buster Teddy Roosevelt would be regarded as some kind of "commie".

So, I am pretty much despairing in being able to simply buy large-format NiMH's or Li-ions anytime in the near future.

andrew
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

Need to change the subject of this thread to Batteries or something.

My fault for hijacking the thread. Sorry! If you make another thread with the same title and the same links with the same intent than that would help get things back in order.

I'm not so dismal in my projections. Just owning one patent for one technology that is now being obsoleted is not a big deal. No one entity or market sector can control where battery development is going. It is quickly advancing, and there are more applications for larger NiMH and Lithium batteries like hybrids. This means there is more demand and their is more money and research to develop technologies to meet the demand. Seriously, LiFePO4 isn't a skip, its a giant leap even from NiMH batteries which were a giant leap from NiCads.

In any case whoever owns any patent or any rights to these new technologies would be stupid to sell them. Theres so much money in the new markets and applications that noone can predict how much they are worth. And if they do end up in the hands of someone who will just sit on them they will just have wasted money because the technology development in lithiums is diverse. There isn't just one patentable technology, there are a few. And the owners and developers of these technologies are racing to try and develop batteries to meet the future BEV needs.

I personally tend to shy away from the conspiracy theories as you can see. Look at whats available plain and simply and what you can make with what materials and technology you have. The ICE powered by gasoline derived from crude oil in a tank is still more practical and offers numerous advantages over BEVs as it did 100 years ago. But the technology behind BEVs is rapidly advancing and the balance may shift soon if not in favor of BEVs. That is whats most significant, and will lead to change on a massive scale.

[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
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JDELUNA
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

New Vectrix video about the Vectrix VIP Direct. Enjoy and God Bless :)

ratatouille
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Re: VECTRIX_post here

Well, Vectrix should have been participating to the Paris motor show but there is a huge nothing at their place.
Strange.

Jean-Fran├žois

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