EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

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gowens
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

As usatracy stated these are Vector 1086B chargers.
usatracy has been a valuable resource for information
on the proper care and feeding of batteries (thanks !).

Also I contacted the shipper and they told me my scooter is
in customs. I will not get a tracking number until it is
in the hands of the trucking company. They estimate 1/18-1/25.

I am going to ask Fernando for a wiring diagram for the scooter
but doubt if they will provide one.

It will be interesting to see how easy (or hard) it will be
to take the thing apart to add the bank wiring.
If anyone has started taking apart an R-20 please pipe in.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

I tried to provide a link to the V library, but it appears to be gone, anyhow....

The Z will be the same procedure as the XM, the R will be something fairly similar yet different...

http://fastpony.com/v/XM-2000_Seat_Side_Tear_Down.pdf

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vinnie
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Wait, doesn't the Vector 2/4/6 have an incorrect charging algorithm for deep cycle SLA AGM batteries?

Vinnie
Broomfield, CO

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Nope.

And the string chargers that ship with the XM-2000 use the same basic algos as the VECTOR and the Deltran 3 stage including the float portion. I have measured them during recharge for volts and amps and verified this and would think this is going to be fairly common for string chargers. A replacement string charger I got from another manufacturer also followed these same algo's.

Unless they are HAZE batteries which want a really low charge voltage (but I use the Vector banks on them anyhow and they are still fine), or those Hawker things DefScooter liked so much for which there is only ONE charger that I know of that correctly charges them (DELTRAN) and no one uses it, in which case the Vector would be fine. (The Hawker batteries want a high voltage hi amp spike for several minutes at end of charge presumabely to combat sulfation or equalize cells or some such nonsense). aka Adaptive 4 Step AGM Charging Algorithm

If your AGM REQUIRES the Adaptive 4 Step AGM Charging Algorithm (and only Hawker does from the charge specs I have seem for all AGM's so far) then you will have to decide if the VECTORS will work for you, they wont overcharge, they just dont provide the end of charge high voltage/amp equalization that Hawkers want neither does the stock bike string charger.

The 4 stage process is only available in a few of the Deltrans chargers, and I am not aware of the 4 step adaptive charger offered by anyone else.

http://batterytender.com/battery_basics.php

AGM's (except silicone) require a long slow absorption rate at end of charge, the VECTOR does this, maintaining a constant voltage until the amperage the battery will take drops to 0.70 amps. (Vector's target voltage can range from 14.8 to 14.95 with most being 14.95)

You may be thinking GEL, which the VECTOR would fry, and which should not be used for EVT in the first place.

Todays AGM's are not hurt by the charging algo or voltages of the Vector or most other "modern" smart chargers designed for auto use that provide the CC/CV method of charging, which the Vector algo's do.

I have a 40 amp VECTOR with a AGM selector, it still provides the exact same algo as the WET setting so not even sure what the purpose of the AGM button on the bigger VECTOR's is supposed to do.

I routinely charged the GreenSavers at 40 amps with no heatup and no detriment to the batteries, but thats a GreenSaver AGM, would not do that with a lead/acid AGM.

Here is a spec sheet for a B&B that would fit in the XM and Z, if you compare the min/max charge volts, the charging curves and max amp charge rates, you will see they are all within the Vector 2,4,6 chargers capabilities and that the algos match, as a matter of fact, on this B&B you could go to the VECTOR 2,6,10 amp charger and use the 10 amp setting for quicker recharge.

http://www.bb-battery.com/productpages/EVP/EVP35-12F.pdf

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DonCristobal
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

What's the difference between the VECTOR 1087B and the VECTOR 1086B? Can you use the 1087s because my friend has a couple of them.

Thanks

Don Cristobal
EVTA Z-20b
---
Ohm is where the heart is.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

one provides 2, 4, 6 amps selectable charge rate

the other 2, 6, 10 amps

You could use either one, the rate you select would be dependent on the max charge rate for your battery.

If your max charge rate was 4 and you chose the 2, 6, 10, then you should only select 2 as 6 may be pushing it and 10 may damage them.

If you needed 10 and selected the 2, 4, 6, then the most you could get is 6 and your charging would take twice as long.

The GreenSavers recommend 5, I do 6 and have done 40 on them

The battery on the Z is rated at 7 amp max charge rate so you could use your friends 2,6,10 amp chargers at the 6 amp setting.

Like most AGM's of this case size, the Z battery is rated at 21 amp hours for one hour vs 27 ah for the GreenSaver silicone AGM and about the same rating as the GreenSavers for the B&B lead acid AGM.

I have five of each charger type setup as bank chargers, started with the 2,4,6 on the silicone, moved that one to the HAZE AGM that require lower charge rates and put the 2,6,10 on the silicone that can take the higher rates.

The 2,6,10 is easily sourced direct from LOWES for about the same price as mailorder, the 2,4,6 is pretty much mailorder only but inexpensive.

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fcherny
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Hi mlh78750,

Since you live in Austin, did you know about the city's Electric Vehicle Rebate program? I'm not sure if the z-20 qualifies, but you should check it out.

Also, I noticed that your pictures show that your bike was shipped with a square palette centered underneath. Andy has identified a potential problem with any bikes shipped this way. With the weight centered in the middle and the two ends hanging over, the process of bouncing down the road over so many miles can lead to connections being jarred lose, leading to weird problems. My z20b has stopped running. My problem could be related to this.

Just wanted you to be aware...

Brock
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Mine was shipped with the single small palette in the center as well and guess what, mine stopped working as well. Same sort of thing, worked fine until I charged it then the throttle starting acting funny until it didn't go anymore. I have an email in to EVT but haven’t heard back yet although it's sleeting out so I can’t test anything anyway right now.

fcherny or mlh78750 any news on what might be wrong yet?

Weee
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Just requesting a show of hands: How many that have received their Z/R-20 have NOT had it break down since delivery?

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Isn't it three delivered and one stopped running ?

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Brock
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Near as I can tell it's three delivered, three not working with the same symptoms.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

I count you an mlh78750, who is the other one with a problem ?

And, did you ARM that alarm system that comes with the bike, is it cutting out the bike to prevent theft and not re-enabling it ?

Did anyone try removing the negative wire from the battery to reset the entire system including parasitics like the alarm to see if the bikes come back online again ?

I insinuated a week ago this was the only logical reason for a bike to sit overnight and not work the next day.

Is the alarm TIMER based and turning ITSELF on due to idle activity of the bike ?

Has anybody read the book on the alarm ?

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Mountain chen
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

What kind of Symptoms ? What's the real problem ?

As I know,EVTA purchased motor and controller from http://www.yzkg.com/product/bigproduct.asp?id=107,who always sent me free sample to do testing because I am earlier in this field.

But their controller is very weakness according to my testing experience.Imitation2.jpg

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Mountain, EVTA claims the controller was custom made and tested to THEIR exacting specification by a Canadian company and then shipped in July to China for installation into the bikes.

If they instead bought the controllers you are showing that is a BIG CHANGE from what they previously stated publicly.

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usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Anyhow, if someone has a broken Z or R and will go pull the negative off of I guess any of the batteries to break the circuit and leave it off like 10 minutes then hook it up and see what happens, that would be nice !

And Mountain, I would not doubt you on the controller issue, that whole made in Canada and then imported into China thing was part of an announcement that also said the bikes had equalizers and user programmable controllers and more, and the bikes were 48 volts and would be delivered by Spring 07.

It appears that possbily between that announcement prior to taking deposits, and building the bikes, EVTA may have simply gone COTS (commercial off the shelf) and thrown a bunch of bikes together.

Pretty sure they do not have the promised equalizers, and they may not have the Canadian engineered controllers now that we all were told so much about back in July just before deposits were taken.

http://visforvoltage.org/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/119-z-20-motorcycle-update

Can anyone confirm if the custom engineered Canadian controllers were indeed used or not ?

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Mountain chen
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

I know nothing about their canadian engineer.But their Canadian charger seem the same shell as my ZAPINPO charger,who come from Guangzhou Kingpan company.

Mr Dai,boss of http://www.yzkg.com told me that Andy order 400 sets of motor/controllers from them.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

OK, well, one more promise not kept by EVT America and not disclosed to the buyers prior to sending money, neither was the equalizer issue I believe until deposits had been taken.

What OTHER surprises await these new owners, I KNEW this was going to happen but no one wanted to hear it in July, August, September, October.

I am now CONVINCED the bike that had over 2 years of development was merely thrown together in a few weeks of desperate last minute parts sourcing, building rental and local unskilled labor hiring at the end of the Summer of 07.

Really glad I passed on my two reservations after they failed to deliver in September, October, November...

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usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Guangzhou Kingpan

Yep, thats the same charger I got from X-Treme as a replacement for a bad out of box XM charger, so whats THAT tell you about its level of quality, KINGPAN

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Brock
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Maybe I took that wrong but fcherny posted above (1-7-08 16:50) that his Z20b had also stopped working along with mine and mlh78750.

I was sort of waiting to hear back from EVT on what might be going on. I am leery of tearing in to the bike when it is brand new.

Here is what mine did; I cut this from my email to EVT

I have bad news. I drove it around a bit this am, slowly to break it in, then charged the batteries. Then this evening when I went out for another slow ride it started acting odd. When I gave it throttle it started, then dropped out as if I let off on the throttle. Then I would just let off and slowly add power and it came back just fine. So I drove around the block, but it seemed to get worse as I drove around. When I was at the last corner I came to another stop sign, stopped and that was it, it wouldn't go no matter what. As I added throttle it would really quickly groan and surge, just like it was going to start but then immediately cut power. I had to push it home and in to the garage. I charged the battery, then shut off the main breaker and let it sit for about 2 hours hoping it was some fluke overheat thing. I then turned everything back on, still no luck and now it doesn't jump at all, no power, no groan, nothing no matter what I do with the throttle.

That night I did pull one of the leads from the batteries to make sure it was really off (although I would think the breaker should be at one end of the string) and tried it today with no luck. Again I am leery to open it up and start trying to see where exactly the power flow ends unless EVT instructs us to try something.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Hmmm.

Anyhow, at some point one of you is going to have to open the bike up and look at things, thats why they gave you a tool kit, that or truck the bike to Miami :)

Here is how to open the Z up, R is similar but different, I would open it and get some pictures and post and check all molex connections at the controller (which I assume is hidden under the plastic) and in general inspect all battery connections and harness.

http://fastpony.com/v/XM-2000_Seat_Side_Tear_Down.pdf

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mlh78750
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Just got back from vacation. Bike still not working. My friends bike that was delivered here made it around 1 ft and then died the same as mine. He was charging while doing the unpacking/building.

We are going to take one of them apart tonight and hook up an o-scope to make sure the hall effect feedback from the motor is working. Then just look at the controller etc. I will take some pics once I get it apart.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

OK,

This is friggin UNBELIEVABLE !!!

Where is EVT America in all of this ?

Has anyone checked the charge voltage on the chargers ?

Are ALL of the new owners possibly plugging in overvoltage chargers, then, turning the key on while charging and frying components in the controllers with the excess charge voltage ?

So far it sounds as if the recharge has been the common denom in all of this.

[b]Disclaimer: [i]Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it[/i] :)[/b]

mlh78750
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

I agree that is sucks that most of us are having a problem. But I did want to say that Andy has been very responsive when I was emailing him. Before I went on vacation I sent him an email letting him know that I would be out. I only today let him know I was ready to start working on it again.

My friend's scooter also had the alarm act "funny". I think we might look into how to bypass the alarm first just to rule it out.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

EVT A needs help, and i am helpful, so I will start by updating the FAQs section of their webpage

IMPORTANT FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Q: FULLY CHARGED, WHAT IS THE RANGE OF THE ELECTRIC SCOOTER? HOW FAR WILL IT GO?

1 foot

Q: WHAT PRECAUTION SHOULD A DRIVER TAKE SO AS NOT TO RUN OUT OF ENERGY ON THE ROAD?

Join a gym, will help buld your endurance for when you have to push.

Q: IS RIDING AN ELECTRIC SCOOTER A COMFORTABLE RIDING EXPERIENCE?

You will think you are not even moving

Q: DO YOU HAVE TO WARM-UP THE ELECTRIC SCOOTER BEFORE RIDING IT?

No, you will be plenty hot already.

Q: IS MAINTENANCE OF AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE DIFFICULT AND COMPLICATED?

Maitenance is zero if the charger is not plugged in, ever.

Q: WHAT ABOUT PARTS, IS IT A PROBLEM GETTING PARTS FOR THE EVT SCOOTER?

No, parts are abundant, every new bike owner has a supply.

Q: CAN THE ELECTRIC SCOOTER BE CLEANED OR WASHED WITH WATER WITHOUT ANY CONCERN?

You should have very little concern with washing or even submerging the vehicle, will not effect is performance in the least.

Q: DO YOU NEED TO WEAR A HELMET TO DRIVE THE ELECTRIC SCOOTER?

Only if you are drinking and worried about falling off the seat onto your garage floor

Q: IS IT EASY TO RECHARGE THE BATTERIES?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Q: HOW LONG WILL THE BATTERIES LAST, WHAT IS THE BATTERIES LIFE CYCLE?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Q: HOW CAN I KNOW THE BATTERIES’ ENERGY LEVEL?

The batteries are never discharged, ever.

Q: IF ONE OF THE BATTERIES HAS A PROBLEM DO I NEED TO CHANGE ALL THE FOUR BATTERIES?

The batteries are never discharged, ever.

Q: CAN A RIDER GET BURNED WHILE RIDING THE ELECTRIC SCOOTER?

Only if he is too close while setting the carton on fire... with the scooter in it.

Q: WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES OF HAVING AN ELECTRIC SCOOTER?

With an electric scooter, you could actually take it out and ride it.

Q: WHO WOULD BENEFIT FROM OWNING AN ELECTRIC SCOOTER?

Z owners

Q: WHAT IS THE MANUFACTURER’S WARRANTY?

Yeah, that is the question.

Q: HOW CAN I PAY FOR MY ELECTRIC VEHICLE?

A little up front, and a lot more post delivery

Q: ARE THERE TAXES ON MY ELECTRIC POWERED VEHICLE?

Just your patience

Q: ARE EVTAMERICA ELECTRIC VEHICES STREET LEGAL?

Z owners are assured to NEVER get a citation for doing anything on the public roads with the scooter

Q: HOW HARD IS IT TO ASSEMBLE MY NEW ELECTRIC VEHICLE?

Easy, just do all the things in reverse that you did to take it apart to get it to run when it was delivered.

Q: IS A CHARGER INCLUDED WITH MY PURCHASE OF AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE?

Well we call it a charger, it may in fact be a toaster, we aren't sure yet, that issue is in R&D.

Q: HOW CAN I CANCEL MY ORDER AFTER EXECUTING IT?

Bullet to your brain

Q: WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON’T LIKE THE VEHICLE I JUST PURCHASED?

Logon to V and bitch

Q: WHAT HAPPENS IF THE VEHICLE I RECEIVE IS DEFECTIVE IN ANY WAY?

That is referred to as "order fullfillment"

Q: WHAT HAPPENS IF THE VEHICLE BREAKS?

What happens if your vehicle brakes ?
It will decelerate of course.

Thank You

DONT BE A HATER, ALL IN GOOD FUN!!!!

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mlh78750
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

LOL

:)

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

SERIOUSLY

EVT should contact the trucking firm and have a NOTICE delivered with the bikes to NOT PLUG THEM IN OR TURN THEM ON until this is resolved in case the charger is frying components, unless you guys figure it out tonight as something simple like the Alarm system.

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Shayler
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Man UsaTracy, Technical savvy and funny. Unfortunately I still have not received my Z yet, but when it gets here I am going to disassemble it into a million pieces to figure out what the hell is going on. Has anyone checked the obvious? Did the charger kill the one of the batteries? Check with volt meter each battery.

mlh78750
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

Andy said he was flying to WA to be there when the next container arrives. He is going to randomly pick a few fresh off the container and test them. He has a theory that the pallet in the center transfered all the shock of the trucking travel straight to the frame and the bikes were not shipped with the load on the suspension as designed. I don't think that would cause the types of failures we are seeing. All of these failures seem the same. I wonder what the transformer is doing with the excess charge voltage. I wonder if the alarm is getting 14 or 16V and locking out the controller. We shall see. My friend is supposed to be over here in 30 min. Then we start tearing into them.

I knew that taking the first delivery that I would be part of the alpha test. I wish we were not having this problem, but as some others have said, I think these guys mean well. That goes a long way with me, and Andy has been quick to answer emails/phone so far.

jdh2550_1
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

ROTFL!!! Sorry, but I have to do my "told you so" to folks who said "the Z is SO MUCH BETTER than that p.o.s XM2K". My XM2K rocks.

Yeah, sorry, I know that wasn't helpful and I know it wasn't necessarily you guys - just the questionable company shills who have long since departed these boards (heck, for all I know they were all pseudonyms for the same guy).

You guys will get it sorted out.

If you think its the charger then has anyone measured the voltage it outputs yet? Or, just charge all the batteries seperately?

Personally I don't think it's the charger - that doesn't explain the one that only went 1ft.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

usatracy
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Re: EVT Z20 arrived! Pics and impressions

I doubt it is a shipping issue, there is something really wrong here. I think you are right on track with the alarm deal, still no answers as to if it is tied in to lock out the controller to prevent theft, but would answer a lot of questions.

If it is the alarm, I can't see how it is arming again if the negative wire is pulled off the battery and left off a few minutes then reattached to reboot everything parasitic.

As for the 12 volt convertor, it may be under the trap door on the floor, it should not get power unless the key is on, you could try pulling the neg battery cable, unplugging the 12 volt convertor, then plugging the battery cable back up so there is no 12 volts and everything is rebooted.

If the alarm is the culprit, and it has an internal battery or memory, this probably wont fix it though.

Good to hear they are taking a flight from cold dreary Florida to wonderful sunny WA to check up on a container though.

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