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I never looked at any photos of workers, I used common sense, you dont roll up into China, and pick up a factory of skilled experienced scooter workers to build a cut rate intro priced bike, or, maybe you do, maybe all Chinese are natural born evt scooter builders :)
I also did not check shipping schedules or call Walmart and ASK them if they would be taking over all the ships after the Typhoon hit and China was evacuated and shipping was delayed, what I did was what I always do, and it is stupid I admit, I used my YEARS of experience in dealing with international vendors and fortune 50 companies and applied my mediocre talents and SURMISED, but you can say ASSUMED, that, Walmart having a few dollars more than EVT A, and needing to move a few more items that EVT A by ship, and needing to do it in the same time frame as EVT A, might just exert some muscle and try to take the ships away from EVT A so they could stock the stores with Chinese goods for XMAS.
I know, stupid of me, I would feel so outed now, except that is what I predicted in October and what was announced in December.
After asking EVBermuda about the bikes they purchased they told me that only one out of the 24 isn't working. All 24 scooters arrived free of any shipping damages.
And you think 1 out of 24 is a GOOD SIGN ?
Thats a 4% failure rate out of box (max acceptable for Q-A is 0.1% out of box dead or 1 out of a thousand, now at 69 out of a thousand), AND, if you READ the posts, 75% of the bikes WORKED out of the box, then died. So has the GUY YOU TALKED TO ridden the bikes, twisted the handlebars around a lot, charged them up and checked them again, probably not if they are for sale, doesn't want the mileage to go up. But, you intepret his response anyway you want, and continue to ignore the FACTUAL happenings from people getting and RIDING the scooter, not just givng it the once over and storing it for sale new
All 24 scooters arrived free of any shipping damages
Glad you brought that up, the bikes we know about in the US so far have a 20% rate of shipping damage. Evidently outside the US that figure is 0% right now :)
And this thread is now 2 pages long, making it impossible to use, so I am done here.
[b]Disclaimer: [i]Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it[/i] :)[/b]
Insulated switch ? gas scooter foot switch is metal pad and non-insulated !! most of chinese E-scooter simply install this.....
I found it is chinese DC converter,could you keep lighting on the whole night and check if DC converters broken or not ? I fail a lot on XM2000 DC converter,now it is Ok.
I fail a lot on XM2000 DC converter,now it is Ok.
I must have gotten lucky, 3500 and 1500 miles later on two XM's and that little box is fine on both, and it never even gets warm, I put the pakTrakr in there with it and the BattEQ and the PakTrakr is recording the data of that tiny compartment (thinks it is recording bat temps), it never goes over ambient air.
I know some on here are real defensive about all of this, I can understand that...
But, there is an obvious lack of attention to details with this bike, and quality issues and on and on...
When the bike is delivered, is there a manual ?
Did it tell you for instance, that the batteries were made and boost charged by the battery maker, and from that point on the are discharging, and that the very first thing you should do is charge them and that this first charge is VERY important to battery life and may take longer than subsequent charges but to be patient it is worth it ?
There SHOULD have been a lockout device, merely a taped note on the key, that told you important basic info like, charge the batteries before inserting this key...
Instead, the owners will be buying new batteries, well maybe EVT will give them to you under warranty since their is no warning or instructions on battery break in and care.
Right,it is too early jumping to conclusions on quality way.
Unlike Gas scooter,Electric vehicle need months of road testing before quality conclusion,especially hot summer will bring more problems.
Such as overheated,battery life,component reliablity..... all these details will take time to prove.
Unlike Gas scooter,Electric vehicle need months of road testing before quality conclusion,especially hot summer will bring more problems. Such as overheated,battery life,component reliablity..... all these details will take time to prove.
Yes, well, the Scooters are being delivered into the hands of the testers as we posts this, some have them and have reported in here, others will over time.
So the ACTUAL road testing will be taking place in 2008, this time next year the results should be available.
Thank you for your patience and for volunteering as testers.
My vote goes with DonCristobal, much to early to tell about over all quality. It's fun to rush to judgement, but not that helpful over all. I emailed Andy at EVT America yesterday about what I should or should not be doing or looking for when my R-20 comes in next week. He answered my email within 30 minutes and states he still thinks it was a shipping / container issue. Please wait for the next coming weeks and months as these new bikes are driven/tested with real miles before making a final judgement.
Phil in Chapel Hill
It's fun to rush to judgement, but not that helpful over all.
Unless it is deemed helpful by those with 500 to 1,000 dollars at risk who may not be aware they can still get out of this mess since the CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS OUTLINED BY EVT AMERICA IN THE DEPOSIT AGREEMENT MAY HAVE FAILED TO BE MET in their particular situation if the bike was not delivered by 12-31-2007.
He answered my email within 30 minutes and states he still thinks it was a shipping / container issue.
If you believe that it is a container/shipping problem that can cause a controller to be dead on arrival, or the throttle wires encased in plastic at the factory to fray and break by moving the handlebars from stop to stop after the bike is uncrated, then you are probably the customer with the technical expertise thatr EVTA is looking for and deserve to have a bike of this quality.
To blame shipping for this is BEYOND ludicrous, have you ever received a bike of this size ?
I have, two of them two weeks apart, the XM-2000 was shipped from China to the US, then warehoused and moved all over the place, then trucked cross country from the west coast to the east coast via long haul truck, it is the EXACT same bike and weight and frame and body as the Z, although the XM quality is much better hands down. Then it is picked up in your personal pickup or trailer at the truck depot, or delivered by them for 70 bucks to your house.
The bike does NOT have a reinforced steel container, it was sitting loose in the box flopping all over the place rubbing all the paint off the plastic and handlebar grips, they often arrived with the handlebars sticking out of the box, and the bike was only held upright in the box by stacks of honeycombed cardboard glued together to be 6 inches tall and the bike sat in that which worked its way flatter and flatter and provided no support.
Then they were slammed all over the place by forklifts in warehouses as they were managed in the warehouse and to pick out the right color to ship today to some poor fool :)
And then finally, after all of this happening for almost a year after leaving China, they arrived, and THEY ALL WORKED OUT OF THE BOX.
The EVT A bikes, supported in their steel superstructure framed boxes, leave China, arrive a few weeks later, are trucked a FEW MILES and delivered to the buyers. And, well, we all know what happened from there.
Do you REALLY believe it is a SHIPPING problem :)
Who was it that said "A sucker is born every minute", or " A fool and his money are soon parted" ?
Was it the same person ?
I don't know, I am stupid.
Please don't make a funny while I'm eating cereal. :)
I recently heard that delivery companies (well at least one) may be a big part of the problem. My source refused to name names, but did hint at there being a video of scooter abuse by a delivery driver. I'd be interested in seeing this video - if only for a good laugh/cry.
By which company was this Z delivered?
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Optimism and pessimism aside, I do have to admit that these issues have given me significant pause. Although I can afford one of these, I don't have the space or facilities to tinker with it as much as I see people here doing. I makes me sad that I probably will not be ordering an R-20. I will check back sometime in the future to see if these sort of issues have been resolved.
If for some unforeseen reason, EVTAMERICA is unable to make delivery of the customer's Z-20 by December 31,2007, then EVTAMERICA will refund the full deposit amount to the customer upon request.
The agreement appears to only apply to Z-20 purchasers, and requires an UNFORESEEN REASON for the delay.
Thats easy, they did not FORESEE weather halting all shipping by Walmart, who then took all the ships and delayed their shipping into 2008, and thanks to Don C's post in November, EVTA evidently stated as much and that they were caught unaware by an unforeseen (by them but not me) event that would delay shipping as Walmart had taken all the ships, according to Don C's post.
So, I think the fact that a typhoon or whatever hit, China evacuated the coast, EVT A got delayed, and your bike is not here, is enough to demand a refund and refuse delivery if that is a course of action one wishes to pursue.
By which company was this Z delivered?
Schenker, but don't RUSH TO JUDGEMENT AND BLAME THEM for this.
Interesting, they are in WA, I believe the container was delivered to WA port, and the bikes practically walked across the street to the buyers.
So yeah I agree, definitely the shipping should be viewed as a culprit in all of this. :)
Hopefully Schenker wont get wind of all of this and take it personal that Andy thinks it is a shiiping problem breaking his bikes.
Oh yeah, the deposit agreement...http://www.evtamerica.com/DepositAgreement.pdf
WOW, I came to this board after I ordered my Z20 hoping to get some background on electric scooters. I found a lot of helpful people and useful information. I was starting to feel like I belonged, but now with this thread I don't feel at all welcome. I do agree that someone with a Z on order needs to be aware of this information. Do you want me to admit I made a mistake? I might have only time will tell, and honestly if I did it is my problem and don’t see why anyone needs to point out that I may have made a bad decision, but all I can do is move forward from here. I also didn’t bad mouth any other scooters, so please don’t lump me in with those few that have.
I, as others have already mentioned, have been encouraged by how EVT is responding to this. Yes there seems to be something wrong, but can't we be part of the solution rather then this?
I for one am not posting to you or other owners that..
A- Have your bike and love it or hate it
B- Dont have it yet and still want it regardless of what stupid people like me think.
I am posting to those that may agree with my point of view that what was delivered does NOT have the components that were described as being part of the purchase, and/or the quality is not in line with the buyer's expectations and who may not be aware that if their bike has not been recieved yet, there may be a solution for them if they are so inclined as to opt out of the situation.
So don't take it personal or as an attack on you or your fine machine. And post and come back for help all you like.
Dual cooling fans on the controller, that is LAUGHABLE and should be a BIG WARNING to you all right now.
If you MUST cool the controller...
A- go to a bigger controller that is DESIGNED for the motor
B- draw air THROUGH the controller where the HEAT SINK IS ACTUALLY LOCATED and not across the SECONDARY and mostly inefficient heat disipitator, the metal case the heat sinks are attached too. And draw in FRESH air and exhaust the HOT air somewhere OTHER THAN the battery compartment. I guess you COULD cool your PC CPU by blowing air on the case, but maybe a fan on the CPU itself would work a little better, or the right sized controller :)
Well I'll just say again...and this has nothing to do with USATracy's assertions...QC, unskilled workers, etc, etc....
If there are x number of folks here who got them...and all of them (it seems) had problems right off...then, chances will be that the same will happen with the whole of purchasers...or it's a very great coincidence!
I hope it is just coincidence. I know how it is looking forward to something like this and having it ending up being a pain in the butt! We all do I'm sure!
Sorry ArticFox...must have gotten you mixed up with someone else here. Somebody in a previous post above mentioned something about the XB's having possibly an alarm and that they had not heard of problems with them, etc.
Sorry that was me. I thought I'd seen a pic of one of the XBs with the key fob remote. I'll look around and see if I can find it. However, as AF will confirm, X-Treme's "website QC" folks probably went to the same skool as Erato's and EVTA's QC folks - none of them seem to concentrate that much on the "little" details (like correct bike specs and/or working scooters that are well assembled). Oooh, how nasty of me!
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employerRemember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
OK, I'll shut up, I think I and others have posted enough info in this thread for buyers to make a decision about how they want to proceed.
Good luck with those bikes, hope the are everything you hoped for and deliver years of service with minimal issues.
I may be in the minority over time, but for the $2350 total I spent on the Z I think I got a good deal.
Hi mlh, I'm in the minority too - I thought the $1600 total I spent on the XM2K represented a great deal. Several folks who hadn't owned one (or any other moped size electric scooter), and who had deposits on the Z, disagreed quite strongly (aka flame war style posts).
I agree that usatracy seems to be jumping to conclusions - however, I think the conclusions he jumps too will turn out to be a lot closer to the truth than some might think.
I also think that folks like mlh might be jumping a bit too soon to see the support of EVTA as good customer service. I'd suggest you wait until EVTA is asked to respond to a situation where they have to outlay some cash. A lot of folks had good things to say about X-Tremes customer service and follow up including shipping of parts (that X-Treme had already budgeted for). However, when the bad/unsuitable battery issue arose they closed ranks and became pretty darn unhelpful - can't say I blame them they would have taken a beating if they'd started replacing batteries. They should have done more homework on the batteries so they were responsible and should have done something better than they did.
I wonder what long term issues the Z will encounter and how EVTA will respond to them?
I also find it hilarious that folks still like to say things like "yeah, well at least it was well packed". It shows you how shallow the average buyer is - they're more concerned with how something looks than how it works. For the one thousandth time the majority of XM damage in shipping was cosmetic (and easily rectified).
I don't know about the early days of the XM - I think I got in during the "middle" - but based on what we've seen so far and based on the first posts about XM's on this board - anyone looking beyond the style of posts to the substance would HAVE to come to the conclusion that the Z is of lower quality than the XM.
When all said, even at $2350 + some dollars for some essential fixes + some willingness to do some of your own work I agree with mlh it is a good value. But, from what we've seen so far the XM2K was slightly better value.
I hope EVTA fixes the Z issues whatever they may be. Perhaps buying a Z six months from now would be the best bet?
I'd suggest that folks remember this whole process when a new vendor comes along with fabulous promises of a much better bike in the future. A lot of folks held off from buying an XM2K in favor of the unproven Z. You should of bought an XM2K (preferably from me, next choice that looser AF, but I'm much nicer than he is) - the available data suggests that you would have received a bike sooner, with less problems and for less cash.
Still, it's all a learning experience, right?
It seems to me that the XM-2000s, based entirely on my reading about experiences on this board, have had more than their share of problems and faulty parts also. Again, it makes little sense to bash EVTA based on less than 5% of their delivered product.
Don - I agree with you the XM2Ks have had a fair number of issues. However, when looking at that data remember that these problems are from bikes that, in combination, have traveled thousands of miles. What we're looking at when comparing to the Z is "what was wrong right out of the box?" and, the Z seems to be fairing worse in that comparison.
Good luck when you receive yours - as I just posted earlier - if you invest some more dollars and some more time than you might have first hoped then I'm sure you'll get a bike you can be happy with.
Enough of the EVT bashing already. It is unproductive.
Anything new like this is bound to have problems.
It is hard to find a company that has not had products recalled.
Even with all the reported problems, I am still looking forward
to getting my R-20.
I do not mind tinkering and fixing things. But that is just me.
Anyway, let's all pull together and get this forum back on track.
We have some very knowledgable and talented folks here. The pictures
and corrective actions have been very helpful thus far.
If mine comes in broken, I will fix it.
You should of bought an XM2K (preferably from me, next choice that looser AF, but I'm much nicer than he is)[...]
Awe hell, you're right - I don't play well with others. ;)
*And I am not loose.
I was not trying to compare my Z to an XM. Never did. In fact called out specifically that since I have never seen an XM I would not comment. My comments were limited to the comparisons between my eGo Cycle2 LX (which I still love BTW) and my Z.
This will be my last post on this thread. I started it to help folks see that the Z was here. When I had a problem I wanted to share the info and once I had a fix I wanted to share that as well. People on this board (and the predecessor) have been very helpful and I was just trying to return the favor/pay it forward. I enjoy my scoot. I am having fun with it. I was having fun with this thread but not anymore.
I am generally not a fan of promoting Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. I work in tech and have seen many companies do this to competition. In general this just leads to general apathy in the end user community and a general disillusionment with the industry as a whole. I don't really think any of us on this board want that for EV.
There are problems with this first shipment of scoots from EVTA. Speculating on the bad choices others may have made to create or allow these problems is not going to help the end users (although it might help someone trying to start a new EV company from repeating those mistakes).
I had a problem with routing under the nose. Easy to fix. The other bike I have seen did not. Brock has reported that his nose wiring was good as well.
The other bike I have seen has what appears to be a controller problem. The motor clicks but does not move when the throttle is moved. This occurred after it actually drove the scoot about a foot. EVTA is sending a new controller and wants to do root cause analysis on the failed controller. If anyone has suggestions on things to try with the controller I would love to hear them. If we find out the root cause (via investigation or via EVTA) we will post here to help everyone else incase they have the same problem.
Documenting these types of problems, the resolution and the tell-tale signs of the problem are very productive and will keep the EV community from the same disillusionment we see in tech.
In short, I know there are problems with this first shipment of EVTA Z20's. Hopefully this community can continue to respond to those problems in a productive manner that will further the cause for EV in the US and elsewhere.
As I have some new info I will post in a new thread. If any of you have questions or issues feel free to PM me.
Hey mlh, try not to take some of these posts personal. It's just like rival football teams; some of us are devoted to the LA Raiders, while others side with... uh... who ever those other teams are. ;)
There's always heated debates where the XM2k is mentioned, usually all going round and round.
I am also tired of the hot gas, really, thanks for stopping.
I have ordered a R-20. I am interested in useful data and information from everyone. I am also interested in how things are going with the owners that have an actual product.
I guess a more general conversation should happen on its own thread. 75% of this thread is general conversation, lots of it repeated.
I really do not know too much about electric bikes, so, some of this is very useful.
I do know something about Communication using Technology in Society. I am pretty close to graduating with a degree in that very thing, nothing but electives to go. So, please, try to limit your comments to the subject as much as possible. Start new threads often. They can then be useful in the future as a resouce.
the new guy.
Thanks so much MLH!!
I have been reading your posts, because like many on here, i am a purchaser of a Z(R-20) and I didn't come on here to read self-serving chicken little comments. The followers that don't take risks (applies to everything in life) are happy about hearing bugs and problems with those who are brave enough to jump into something they believe in (EV-tech).
This affirms their fears about life and confirm why they always follow to feel safe.
I have been just skimming through that negative crap to read your updates on performance and what to potentially expect when my bike arrives (very soon).
Reading about your problems and how easily it was to fix them really has helped.
I never thought jumping into a purchase into something that is not status quo would be flawless, thats just the risks leaders in life take, and the reward is pushing new technologies and being expert at something unique.
I would like if you stayed around and be there for us that can benefit from your experience when others arrive.
Gosh you guys are just so sensitive. Go back and read some of the anti-XM2K crap that was posted - you'll see where we're coming from - and we're still here despite the sh1t directed our way. That was mostly all just hot air based on the fact that X-tremes's kids scooters were crap and some (actually the minority of folks who posted) got bikes that were dinged up. Things went further downhill with MSO issues (has anyone registered a Z yet?) and then reached an all time low when the batteries turned out to be crap...
No one's personally bashing you. All I'm doing is giving a different perspective and hoping to set some realistic expectations. I don't buy any of this "Andy's really looking out for us" stuff - until he's asked to do something more substantial for you.
I really do think that you all got a good enough deal. If your batteries turn out to be better (4lbs heavier is a good sign - I can't imagine it's anything BUT extra lead) then you may well have the "last laugh" because the batteries supplied with the XM2K would have been better used for electric toothbrushes than for (relatively) high amp draw mopeds.
When the first one passes 1,000 km it will also be interesting to compare the XM2K with the Z20. Right from the get go that's been the most interesting possibility to me - a side by side comparison. No, not for one upmanship - but to figure out what makes one better than the other in what respects. That way when we all buy our next scooter we will be better informed. Is that so bad?
LOL! But that's not what I read on the bathroom wall. Honest... ;-)
because the batteries supplied with the XM2K would have been better used for electric toothbrushes than for (relatively) high amp draw mopeds.
Or a UPS system, for which they were designed. Too bad GreenSavers had to take the rap for the bad batteries in the XM-2000 when in fact it appears that the wrong TYPE of GreenSaver (a thin plate UPS battery instead of a thick plate EVT battery) was placed in them by ERATO.
One day I will cut open the GreenSaver SP27-12 EVT battery I am testing (and which is hands down better than the GreenSaver that was missing a model number and merely stickered 38ah on the side) that was placed in some of the XM-2000's.
Then we will know for a fact if the original battery indeed was a thin plate battery never intended for deep cycling (thin plates degrade quickly when deep cycled), and also fits with what I found on the stock battery when it was opened, liquified mush. It also fits the fact that the original battery did not have as much voltage drop on load as these do (thin plates = more plates = more surface = less voltage drop = the wrong battery for EVT use)
So far, testing of the SP27-12 has proven it provides a full 4 Ah more than the majority of AGM's in its case size with an additional 2 more Ah to full discharge at 65% less amp load (30 amp load for last 2 Ah for a 27 Ah total capacity at up to 50 amps continous except the last 2 Ah's)
Only the B&B comes close to this level of capacity, but it can't match cold weather performance, lower resistance, higher charge rates or price.
I have done 40 amp charge on these with only a 5 degree F case rise and no degradation of capability or capacity.
Then there were the XM's that came with the ELECTIER silicone batteries, which no one will own up to having manufactured, this crappy phantom battery did not even have half the capability of the GreenSaver UPS battery that Erato put in some of the XM-2000's.
STAY AWAY FROM ELECTIER, assuming you can find any.
The GreenSaver allows you to go farther and without discharging as deeply compared to other AGM's except B&B. Not discharging as deep is more cycles and less $.
City/Highway range in miles for 50 amp bike at full throttle.
21 Ah SLA AGM
10% discharged = 2/2.5
20% discharged = 4/4.75
30% discharged = 5.5/7
40% discharged = 7.5/9
50% discharged = 9.5/11.5
60% discharged = 11.25/14
70% discharged = 13.25/16
80% discharged = 15/18.5
90% discharged = 17/21
100% discharged = 19/23
27 Ah GreenSaver
10% discharged = 2.5/3
20% discharged = 5/6
30% discharged = 7.25/9
40% discharged = 10/12
50% discharged = 12/15
60% discharged = 14.5/18
70% discharged = 17/21
80% discharged = 19.5/24
90% discharged = 22/27
100% discharged = Too deep for 50 Amp bike load, 30 amp max, just slow down to 25 mph and another 2.5 miles.
One way to my office is the difference between a 70% discharge with 21Ah AGM and only 50% discharge with the GreenSaver.
Thanks, gowens. My feelings exactly.
When I get my Z20b fixed, I'll let everyone know what was wrong and how I fixed it.
I agree with one other poster above. You guys don't need to take the comments relating to the Z personally. We know you bought one and really hope any problems get worked out. That's one of the reasons for the forum...and that's been evident in the responses from folks trying to help you out. However, as others have commented this forum is also about offering as much info, even speculation, about a product so others can make their own purchase decision--with whatever info they can get...speculation or not. If you simply take the word of the sellers/importers I assure you no matter what product you buy you're going to come up short on your expectations. That's just the way this market is at least for now. I came here in the very beginning to hear about this and that scooter...to help me determine which to buy. Alot of what I read was speculation...but still helpful to me in making a buying decision. I'd rather hear some "speculation" from some fairly knowledgeable (more than I have about electric scooters) people than take the rant that comes from the importers selling these scooters.
When USATracy makes his remarks...it at least introduces some possible reasons for the problems that have occured. Whether you agree or not...that's up to you...but for the many folks who haven't purchased yet it certainly gives them cause for their own further investigation. That's beneficial and again useful to the people who come to this forum who are thinking about purchasing...but haven't made a decision yet. My own statements about the probability of the majority of the Zs having problems is simply based on statistical conclusions. I could be totally wrong. I don't think so though. Regardless, I think that would be something beneficial for potential buyers to consider. Also, we ALL want better products, pricing, etc., etc. and the fact that a forum like this is apparently read by those in this market (alot of them) then it helps make improvements I think in what they are importing. They know that we have sources like this to learn more than just the promotional rant they are making about their "new" product. It also puts "pressure" on them to rectify certain issues with customers. In the end, for most if not all of the importers, it's about money...not "green" issues, not technology innovation, etc., etc. This doesn't make them "bad" guys. Just "business." Maybe one day we'll get to the point where most offerings don't result in "fixing" things on your brand new scooter. And it's the kind of comments on public venues like this that will help to bring that about. So again, good luck with your scooter and I hope it does bring you many great riding experiences for a long time...just as I'm keeping my fingers crossed that mine (another product) will. And don't take the negative comments personally. If the Z problems get worked out and it turns out these initial ones were a fluke...then everybody will know that as there will be positive comments here. If not, and these turn out to be real "duds," then alot of people who would have been very disappointed will have been kept from wasting their money. Either way, the forum will have been very helpful!
Sorry I dragged on with this...
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