Updated your operating or non operating status

Thanks to the moderators for removing the number in my previous post; tried to re-edit myself, but couldn't. So far my scooter is still running well. I'll try and post some pics of my bank charging system.
Peace

Received the controller and instructions over the last few weeks. Installed the new controller and the bike is working again. The new controller does not have a temperature sensor that initiates the cooling fans.

Keeping my fingers crosses that the controller doesn't fry again.

NovaScootersDotCom - please don't come on this board and cry "foul" when one of your posts gets removed. Your own board that you yourselves run regularly and aggressively removes posts. It is more than a little disingenuous of you to come and post on this board and complain. Of course, you've conveniently removed the posts and banned the users who dared to disagree with anything you posted on your board so there is no record on your board of any dissent. At least on this forum they haven't banned you (nor should they).

All - I never saw the topic removed. However, I suspect that the gist of what Tracy and Karen Ingram (aka NovaScooters) posted might bear closer examination. I have been told by X-Treme that if you sell a moped class of bike you need to sell it via a dealer. A distributor cannot provide the MCO directly to an end-customer - they must provide it to the dealer and the dealer provide it to the customer. Yes, X-Treme used to directly distribute the MCO but have realized that they were in error and have corrected the situation. To become a dealer in Michigan you have to have a bricks and mortar store, have accredited repair facilities or an agreement with a local (within 10 miles) accredited repair facility and be open to the public at least 30 hours per week. My business does NOT satisfy those requirements - however, to facilitate being able to sell the upcoming XM-3000 & XM-3500 I am acting as a commissioned sales representative instead.

In my opinion all of the above won't actually affect your sales experience all that much (with me or with EVTA or with Nova Scooters). However, I am not a lawyer and I don't know if it affects your rights as a customer. As a business owner I've no interest in opening myself up to the risk of not complying with applicable state law. I believe my arrangement with X-Treme brings me into compliance - if it turns out it doesn't then I will have to adjust my business practices appropriately.

Whether the law is particularly useful or meaningful in this context is a different question - but as far as I know the sales model of many "direct distributors" is not in compliance with some state laws.

Just my 2 cents worth - use the information as you wish. As many of you have found you can still get your bikes registered and on the road. More power to you and happy riding! I hope the initial "bugs" are behind you and I wish you many miles of happy EV motoring! :-)

im in the process of testing my controller, it dosent seem to be the same as described in the email andy sent.what is the easiest way of knowing there is a controller problem.
i just want to make sure when i contact andy that i have the voltmeter attached to the right place

Is the email posted anywhere ?

I assume they are instructions on how to replace, if they are identical to the existing controller then we or any knoweldgable owner on this system should be able to help you tell if it is installed correctly and diagnose it.

Are you saying you installed it per the email and the bike still won't function or has new problems ?

Of course, you've conveniently removed the posts and banned the users who dared to disagree with anything you posted on your board so there is no record on your board of any dissent.

There was no record of any dissent from the content that was removed, which was removed at the author's request after we banned him. Following his banning we also removed the content from a second person that was banned with him, as we assumed he also did not want his content on a system he was denied access to.

(his request for it to be removed is documented here on V by him and seconded by you yourself, perhpas you conveniently forgot that fact when you crafted the post above)

As far as we know, that is the only user content that has ever been removed.

We still have the content, so, easy to validate that it was not some censorship of dissentful comments.

If someone wants to stroll over to the site and post nasty things about us, that's fine, you can even post dirty words. We have never censored anyone there.

What we did do was remove two people who were posting on our site, then coming over to V and posting about posting over there and then making NEGATIVE comments about our firm on V, and then returning all nice and posting on our system and engaging us, then posting back on V negative comments as if we were not aware of them.

And doing things like posting on V "I had someone contact them to get the deal on whats going on in that company", then, this same person has the nerve to flat out deny they did it, again, on V, after they had already boasted that they did it and were waiting the results, again on V, 24 hours prior. We call that a bored troublemaker with nothing better to do, so we banned him to V.

So yeah, we booted the two of them. But we did not delete their content, until they posted on V that it was unfair that we left their comments in place and they had no access, we agreed, THEN removed the comments.

Pretty sure thats the only booted parties, day 3 of operations, and also was the only non-Nova produced content that has been removed.

So, anyone wants to go to the other forum and post nasty things about the firm or its people, or just write some dirty words to see them in print, feel free, just no porn please, we'll just have to delete it and it might be illegal depending on what you post (the porn that is).

I'll leave it to the hall monitor here to provide you the forum link as we are not that self-serving :)

As for taking bait to your flame posts, this is the last so post away, we know from the back-channel emails from you in Oct to Dec that you live to flame and are bored otherwise and "...loved all the back and forth fighting and hope you weren't really upset about what I said, I was just trying to liven the board up (oct to dec)"

im not sure

my scooter is not running, im testing the original controler (voltmeter), with some info andy sent me, the illustration of the controller and the original on my bike dont exactely match (wiring) i just hope im putting the voltmeter on the right spots.
the 3 ping connector coming off the controller for the throttle is what i looked at, the white im getting a reading of 0 volts. it should be 1-4.5 volts

i dont know much about electric bikes but, that tells me the controller is bad?

What you are most likely referring to is testing the throttle voltage, which is one of numerous voltages that need to be tested.

We have seen bad throttle supply side voltages (bad controller)

Bad throttle return side voltages (bad throttle or broken wiring between throttle and controller)

Bad 5 volts from the HAL sensors (failed sensor in the motor)

Constant 60 volts on all three phase wires at the same time (bad controller and bike is hard to push with breaker on)

Improper signalling from safety cutout circuits (bad or loose sidestand safety switch or failed brake lever switch).

The proper testing regimen is quite involved, but takes a knowedgable technician about 10 to 15 minutes to complete. We would be happy to run you through it over the phone, but we will be unavailable until April 7.

If you find you are still at odds with the bike at that time, call us and we can help you run the numbers and figure out what component if any has failed. Short of that, perhaps the users here can lead you through testing these key areas as the motor most likely will not work if all of these areas, and possibly more, are not tested and confirmed to be up to snuff.

I’ve been a lurker here since November – never really had anything to contribute. But now that I have finished my first week of commuting on my R-20, I figured I should add my experience to the mix.

My R-20 arrived in mid February. Assembly went fine and everything seemed to be working. I was heading out of town so I just threw it on charge and left it. For the next month it only got short rides on my private road, but last week I finally got it registered and inspected. This past week I commuted each day to the train station - about a 10 mile round trip. In addition, I’ve done some errands around town. All told I’ve put about 110 miles on the Odo (EVTA miles, shall we say). Except for the 10 hours each day at the train station, it’s been on charge the whole time on the charger that came with it.

So far I’ve had no mechanical problems at all (knock on wood). However, there are some disappointments.

As all have noted, the speedo reads higher than actual speed (seems about 5 mph higher as measured by a gps). Top speed on level ground is about 32 mph (gps reading) - a far cry from the 45 mph claimed on the website. On hills it gets quite pokey. My speed drops to about 20 mph on big hills, which is a drag as it is very hilly around here. After 15 miles of riding yesterday (according to GPS), it was down to about 30% charge, so I doubt I’d get more than 20 to 25 miles on a charge. Several loose screws needed to be tightened and parts of the molded plastic body keep coming loose.

But considering all I’ve read here, I feel lucky that’s its working as well as it is. I’m basically happy, (though my fingers are crossed). It’s been a lot of fun to ride, basically does what I need to do on the commute, and attracts a lot of praise with it’s cool retro styling. If it continues to work and stay together my main complaint will be about the speed.

I have not had time to do anything special with the batteries yet (I was hoping for transportation – not a science project!) but I’m thinking about an equalizer.

My thoughts are with those who have been less lucky. I’ll post again after I’ve put on some more serious miles.

thanks nova, it is a little frustrating when you have no experience with such issues

I am relitivly new to any forum but I think I need to say somthing to NOVA SCOOTERS If this hostility has been going on since Dec. I think you need to GET OVER IT , KISS AND MAKE UP , MOVE ON ,you are still on this forum and writing what you will and have your own sight to rave on , I appreciate your information but I (We) do not need any more angest !*!*!*! still no spell check

GET OVER IT , KISS AND MAKE UP , MOVE ON

I'm ready - I'm puckering up for a kiss even as I type this (not a pleasant site!) ;-)

BTW - if you miss spell check then consider switching to the Firefox browser it has spell check built in for every text box. It does that little wavy red line under misspelled words...

:) thank you for that sugestion , afriend has already offered to help me install firefox (foxfire) ?? and explained html a little !! he comes around every two weeks or so , A paradox , time is moving faster and I am moving slower !! the calculater still works but my batterys are lowww .. I will be gitting one of those large scooters in about a month or so and I am looking forward to adventure till then I'll Just lurk here and learn what I can ,And trying not to worry the world will not end befor I can Ride !!!!!

Status of my z20b: fixed and broken again.

With my controller operational, I took my bike about a mile down the road to have it inspected. While there, the d*$%n thing quit on me. The inspector suggested I check the fuse. Sure enough, the fuse had blown. I walked to a nearby gas station and got a 10 Amp replacement. That got the bike moving again. It passed inspection. On the way home, it blew again. I put in another fuse. I barely got it up to the garage when it died again. I put in a new fuse when I got in the garage but now: nothing. I can't even get the alarm to turn on or anything.

I have no idea what could be wrong or how to begin. I didn't know I would need a masters degree in electical engineering to keep this thing running.

Any ideas on what I should do to fix it?

Fred.

The 10 amp fuse is on the output of the DC-DC converter. Something running off of 12 volts appears to be shorted and blowing the fuse. Others have found problems, with the wiring not being properly routed, in the front handle bar area of the Z20, with wires being pinched and cut. Because of this I would start by removing the front covers and looking for damaged wiring. 12 volts is used mostly for the lighting. Your DC-DC converter may also be bad now.

Thanks! Um... What does the DC-DC converter look like? Where would I find it?

I hate displaying my ignorance like this, but obviously I need to do a lot of learning if I'm going to continue owning this bike.

Fred

go to this thread, down near the bottom. astar posted a photo and desctiption on 03/17:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2792-evta-z20r20-ownership-summary

What does the DC-DC converter look like?

Here are a few pics for reference (Z20A).

DC-DC converter.

Front end wiring to check for damage. The wires can rub against the headlight assembly.
(I've installed some extra doo-dads, so there are extra wires in the pics)

Looking at the schematic, the only 2 things that are fused, that do not go through the ignition switch, are the heat sensor switch, and the alarm.
Does the fuse blow without turning on the ignition?
If so, try unplugging the connector for the alarm, and for the heat sensor. If the fuse doesn't blow, plug them in one at at time, to see which blows the fuse.
If the fuse blows only when you turn the ignition on, try disconnecting the controller (IIRC, that is what you most recently replaced?), and see if the fuse still blows.
If the fuse still blows with the controller disconnected, let us know, we can suggest what else to disconnect to find the short

Great pics. Thanks. The arrows are especially helpful, since I'm in learning mode.

Right now, I can't run any tests because none of the 12V stuff will turn on. When I flip on the circuit breaker and press the remote alarm button, nothing happens. When I turn on the ignition switch, none of the electronics work.

So, I'm thinking the problem (for the moment) is the converter. I can't imagine there's anything wrong with the 60V supply. But I'll test everything (using the helpful instructions in the link above) using a multimeter I bought last night.

However, here are the symptoms as they occurred BEFORE everything went dead.

1) The bike would only die when it was in motion (or as I was twisting the throttle to go - when it would sputter, then die).

2) While it was working and the fuse hadn't blown, I noticed that the tone of the blinker sound changed as I would accelerate into a turn. Why would the power applied by the throttle affect the pitch of the blinker noise-maker?

3) It did not take very long for the fuse to blow. Maybe 5 or 10 minutes.

4) I was not running any accessories while riding the bike - other than using the blinker to make turns and the break lights (of course).

5) During the inspection, I had to turn on the headlights, demonstrate the blinkers, and the break lights. None of this caused the fuse to blow - but the bike was sitting idle at that time.

Since I just installed a new controller, could it be the controller that is overloading everything?

Fred.

:) It sounds to me like you have a break in the primary battery circut . start by checking battery voltage at the breaker if novoltage you have a bad connection between batterys or connections if you get a good reading then check voltage farther down the path for the fault ( you can take a large needle and pierce the wire and connect your volt meter to it and a proven -ground- . Is there a dc too dc converter for the 12V circuts ?? then check and follow those wires , the conntrolers electronics 'may' be powered by this lower voltage and not from the primary . It is a time consuming process but you will find were the power is interupted . I hope you can find a bad connection instead of having to change the conntroler

The ink had barely dried on my “so far, so good” post, when the speedometer crapped out on my morning commute. I guess I posted too soon. No drama, I just looked down while I was cruising along and it was at zero. Of course, the Odo, had stopped too. I checked the cable at both ends and nothing was obviously detached. If anyone has any ideas they’d be much appreciated. Not that it was much use when it was working, but it would be nice to have a ball park tally of distance traveled.

I only see 1 place on the circuit diagram where 12v goes into the controller, and that is for the brake disable. It is possible that there is too little internal resistance on this line inside the controller, and that is causing the short of your 12v fuse; it seems unlikely to me, but it is the one thing you changed (the controller).

Check to make sure the pink wire on the output side of the breaker is still in place. The pink wire goes to the DC-DC converter. The wires are not held in the breaker very well, and they can easily fall out. Could also be the wire from the battery to the breaker.

Also, one of the items you may have moved when replacing the controller is the heat sensor (which is mounted on the controller).
The heat sensor is connected to the fuse before the ignition switch; so if the fuse is blowing before you even turn on the ignition, it might be the issue.
The heat sensor must be electrically isolated from the controller completely. If it is in contact with the case, it may cause a short. So you might visually check to see if it is still isolated from the controller case.

I had to tin the wire to get the wire to stay in the breaker, I tightened the screw as tight as I could and the wire would side out with very little effort. The breaker is an AC breaker, designed for THHN stranded house wire. #6 THHN wire has only 19 strands, the wire I used has more than 100 strands.

I only see 1 place on the circuit diagram where 12v goes into the controller, and that is for the brake disable. It is possible that there is too little internal resistance on this line inside the controller, and that is causing the short of your 12v fuse; it seems unlikely to me, but it is the one thing you changed (the controller).

Check to make sure the pink wire on the output side of the breaker is still in place. The pink wire goes to the DC-DC converter. The wires are not held in the breaker very well, and they can easily fall out. Could also be the wire from the battery to the breaker.

You may be on to something there. While replacing the controller, I disconnected and reconnected those two wires leading into the breaker. But when I rechecked them, the wires seemed to be snug and in place.

Andy is sending me a new DC-DC converter. When I replace it, I'll look at those other connections very closely. I will also test the wires to the converter with my multimeter - which is something I've never in my life ever done before, but I'm willing to learn.

Fred.

I had to tin the wire to get the wire to stay in the breaker, I tightened the screw as tight as I could and the wire would side out with very little effort. The breaker is an AC breaker, designed for THHN stranded house wire. #6 THHN wire has only 19 strands, the wire I used has more than 100 strands.

Philip,

How did you "tin the wire"? I'm not sure what you mean or how to do that, but I think I may need to...

Fred

:)

dear Fcherny ,
to tin wire strip off the outer casing about 1" heat up your soldering iron good and hot , use low melt rosen core solder use a piece of steel wool and clean the wires ( try to get all the little strands ) twist them togather and , apply a little solder to the iron to get a clean drop of solder on the tip , touch the iron to the end of the wire with the solder between iron and wire , as the wire is coated with solder work your way around the wire and in toward the casing so the solder is coating all of the strands, then strike off the excess solder with the iron and let the wire cool, then use a sidecutter to trim the bare wire to length and install in the breaker ! note ... AC breakers do not operate on DC and the contacts are not large enough to take repeated disconnecting under load !! there are breakers made for switching , they have a sufix SW or SH
the idea with the needle is a little dangerous if you touch ground so tape up the multimeter prob and needle to prevent an arc blast ouch Later

Hi--my name is Evan. I'm a newbie. I thought I would add my experience to the mix. My silver R-20 arrived 12/31/07. Although the crate looked fine, upon unpacking there was damage to the "body" with the upper shields on the nose displaced. I couldn't even get the key in the ignition because the whole mess was displaced laterally. By taking it all apart, I was able to realign the panels somewhat better, but they still don't fit together ideally, and the flimsy plastic tabs, screws, and retainers are a joke. My big issue is the throttle/controller. I start out fine, but my max speed is 15 mph (with EVT's speedometer) and I only have response for the first half of the throttle. I emailed "support@evtamerica" twice but no response. I then sent a certified copy of the email to EVT America, and Fernando sent me an email saying my letter had gone to the "wrong department". Last week, I got an email from Andy saying he suspected either the throttle or the controller. He indicated he was going to send "detailed" instructions for testing these ASAP but I haven't heard yet.

Bottom line: my R-20 is parked. I don't know if I have the energy or skills for the kind of radical re-engineering this bike needs just to make it reliable and safe. That's a shame, because it's spring in Minnesota FINALLY and I had hoped to be electric vehicling by now. I'm not whining, because I knew I was taking a risk--I just didn't think it'd be such a debacle.

I have a R20 with about 650km (?) ~ 400 miles on the odometer. Two weeks ago, I turned on the bike to go to work. fuel gage worked, horn, light, beeping dianostic did it thing, but no power when I turn the throttle. Check the fuse, it was fine. Called Andy, he said it was probably the controller, just installed the new controller and still no power to the wheels. The fuel gages lights up, lights and horn works, horn works, dianostics beep. What should I be looking at next?