You guys need to diet! ;-)

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jdh2550_1
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Wow, I knew in the back of my mind that the Vectrix was "heavy", but it wasn't until I just started comparing stats that I realized quite how heavy!

The Vectrix is almost TWICE the weight of an XM-3500Li. The V is 515 lbs vs. the XM at 275 lbs.

So, here's what I think we should do - put the Vectrix motor into the XM. That should be fun! ;-)

Feel free to flame away (this is, after all, a friendly dig!)

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marytee
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Hey John, Keep in mind that the batteries in a Vectrix are NMH while XM's are LI. Much weight difference there.

We'll see who's first to go in a wind storm. ;)

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jdh2550_1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Hey MaryTee - are you thinking of getting a Vectrix? If you do be sure to ride it out to sunny Ann Arbor and show me - and I promise I won't make any size jokes!

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moccasin
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Quote:

So, here's what I think we should do - put the Vectrix motor into the XM. That should be fun!

I doubt the 60 volts in your XM would turn over the 125 volt Vectrix motor!

The XM is a nice looking ride though, and even though it's thousands less than a Vectrix, I think I like the "big" look of the Vectrix better, and the extra 5 or 6 mph is a big bonus out on the four lane. As for the weight difference, well, this thing handles like a small bicycle compared to my Harley Road King! No complaints in the weight department at all, and if way down the road, those heavy NMH batteries are cheaper to replace than your lithiums, then I'll be happy all over again! ;-)

I am curious though, as to how your regen works. Vectrix claims to have a patent on the regen throttle. Is yours regen by throttle reversal like the Vectrix? or is it brake controlled?

DaveD
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

From what I remember of my reading on the XM-3500Li, it doesn't have regen braking. There is some degree of disappoint about this in the XM community, again from my reading. XM people, please correct me if I'm wrong!

BTW, don't think of me as being an abbreviation nazi, but I will point out the the common abbreviations are "NiMH" and "Li-Ion" for the battery chemistries being discussed here. I find that it makes for less confusion to stick with widely-used abbreviations when they're well-established.

jdh2550_1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

DaveD,

Yep, you're right about the lack of regen and that some people miss it. Not me. I think it's a fluff feature (even on the mighty Vectrix - and although I've never tried it I don't much like the sound of a "two way throttle"). about now I should run for cover!

Actually, I disagree with the common abbreviation that you suggest for my batteries. LiFe or LiFePO4 is better, there are many different lithium chemistries and some of them (but not LiFe) are prone to thermal runaway. Yep I'm all for calling them NiMH.

moccasin,

Yeah, OK, we'll double the batteries that should do it (40 * 3.2 = 128) - that still only adds another 70lbs. Sure, comparing the Vectrix to a Road King makes the V look svelte! However, my VStrom DL-1000 is only about 450lbs and that thing felt like a ton of bricks when I road it this weekend...

Oh and by the time I've done the 60,000 miles my LiFe's are supposed to last I'm sure they'll be giving them away in cereal boxes.

:-)

Now, I know the V likely rides and handles well. But just think how much better it would be with a few hundred pounds less...

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Buzby
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Once you've tried it, you'll wonder how you managed without! You get to realise how much energy is wasted simply gettingt up to speed, only to hit the brakes and slow down again. Regen gives you a little bit of satisfaction that at least you're getting a little back! That said, I'm in danger of wrecking the throttle on my Piaggio for attempting to slow/regen when using IT!

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Vectrix-NH
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Ya it heavy , But it low center of gavity it handle better than alot of smaller bike.
and it dose not get blowen around at hiway speed when truck go by the other way.

Happy riding , Herb

moccasin
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Quote:

I think it's a fluff feature

You'll eat those words the first time you get five minutes on a Vectrix! The Regen throttle is an awesome feature, and with just a little extra stopping room, it makes brakes obselete!

Your VStrom (nice bike by the way) is a very top heavy machine, compared to the bottom slung Vectrix. We have an Intruder 800 in our family (450 lbs) that I've always thought felt like a kid's bike, but even it is heavy handling compared to the 500lb Vectrix. It's not the weight, it's the center of gravity that makes the difference. With your half weight, if you had regen thottle on the XM, you would never need brakes! :-)

moccasin
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

I apologize for my misuse of battery abreviations. Here in the South, we've been campaigning for over a century to get rid of useless letters, and these Chemists and 'Lectrical Engineers are not helping our cause at all! HAHA!!

jdh2550_1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

moccasin wrote:
Quote:

I think it's a fluff feature

You'll eat those words the first time you get five minutes on a Vectrix!

I look forward to the chance of trying it out and chowing down on my words. However, you long time motorcyclists - on a gasser don't you use the front brake for 90% of the braking? My worry is that when you use the forward roll of the throttle to engage regen you inhibit yourself from using the front brake. Is that the case? Is that not a problem?

Oh, and while it may give you (and me) the warm fuzzies to be turning kinetic energy back into electrical energy the truth is that the amount of electricity stored back into the batteries makes very little difference to range. So, it appears that on a motorcycle/scooter regen is more of a braking technology than an electrical efficiency technology. Given that motorcycle brakes are pretty darn effective do we really need the expense and complexity of a regen system?

The local scooter shop has just started selling the Vectrix. I'd like a test ride but seeing as I don't really plan on buying one I'm a little leery of going down and seeing if I can bag a ride...

Oh, and this is for moccasin (and others interested in letter efficiency!) Did yu knw tht thy sy Dckns usd a frm of shrt hnd tht smply gt rd of mst vwls?

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moccasin
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Quote:

on a gasser don't you use the front brake for 90% of the braking?

No necessarily. On any bike the front brake is far more efficient at stopping the vehicle than the rear brake, as the rear brake is behind the weight and will have a tendency to lock up much faster. However, on loose surfaces, the front brake is a killer, and is also shouldn't be used in parking lot manuevers at all.

The regen system on the vectrix is more closely related to decompression valve braking on dirt bikes, which is extremely effective at speed reduction without the shift from engine operations to braking operations.

The Vectrix's regen is so effective at full rear throttle that you only need to add a small amount of front brake to bring it to a complete hault with almost no chance of braking the rear tire loose from traction and losing control of the bike. I'm not so sure there is a lot of "expense or complexity" with the regen, since it effectively is just a polarity reversal. Regen also does not eat brake pads or burn rotors on long downhill slopes where you need just a gentle drag to keep your speed in check, so it presents yet another non-maintenance bonus to the bike.

Lack of a transmission, lack of a clutch, and regen braking virtually make the Vectrix a one hand bike, with the option of brakes when you want them. (they do come in handy when you're stopped on a hill ;-)

Quote:

My worry is that when you use the forward roll of the throttle to engage regen you inhibit yourself from using the front brake. Is that the case? Is that not a problem?

I thought it was at first, and on occasion, have considered swapping the two brake controls, but the regen AND the brakes on this bike are both so effective, all it takes is one finger on the front brake lever and full regen twist on the throttle and you can stop on a dime. So I'm getting better at reaching my index finger over the brake lever when I go into regen mode, just in case I need the extra brake. I almost never use the rear brake on this thing!

marytee
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Re: YI'll ride from ou guys need to diet! ;-)

I am past the thinking stage. I took delivery last week from a dealer in Ypsilanti, MI. I'll come out and visit, but will need a charge to make it back... :)

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jdh2550_1
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Re: YI'll ride from ou guys need to diet! ;-)

marytee wrote:

I am past the thinking stage. I took delivery last week from a dealer in Ypsilanti, MI. I'll come out and visit, but will need a charge to make it back... :)

That is so cool!!!! Congratulations! I'll send you an email and we can make a date :-)

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jdh2550_1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

moccasin - thanks for the more detailed description. Perhaps you're right that there's not much in the way of cost and complexity. I think if I put it on a bike I might put it on the rear brake lever and have the first 75% of travel actuate the regen and the last 25% actuate the rear brake itself. I can't use the dual mode throttle because Vectrix patented that...

You are starting to persuade me it's a good braking technology. Most of my feelings of "it's fluff" are due to the fact that it adds such a minimal amount of range as to be almost undetectable.

Now, if only I can persuade MaryTee to let me ride her new toy... ;-)

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siai47
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Regenerative braking is very important in recapturing braking energy and allowing it to be turned in to useful work. This is why hybrid cars get better fuel economy then standard cars in urban stop and go driving. The braking energy is absorbed in the battery and is used to accelerate the vehicle again. In highway driving with no braking, the hybrid gets the same or marginally better economy. Because electric scooters and bikes are usually operated in an urban or suburban enviornment, regeneration should be standard as most of the parts necessary to use it (motor and battery) are there by default. Just because the Vectrix has a unique patented twist grip doesn't preclude an easy application of regenerative brakes. I have never driven a hybrid or electric car with a twist grip, but most modern cars have regen. When you apply brake pressure (foot pedal or hand lever) pressure from the brake fluid is sent to a transducer that converts the pressure into an electrical signal that applies proportional rengeration to assist in slowing the vehicle. Because you can control the regen on the Vectrix independent of the brakes, it uses a very high amount of regen that can bring the vehicle to a complete stop without using the service brakes at all. In a scooter or bike application I believe that the brake lever that is on the wheel opposite from the drive wheel should control the regenerative brake. This would automatically apply regen on one wheel and the service brake on the other with operation of only one hand (or foot) control. BTW I did switch the front brake to the left side so I can control the rear regen with the twist grip and apply the remaining front brake without ever taking my right hand off the grip. Seems perfectly normal to me and causes no confusion between the Vectrix and a standard motorcycle.

Vectrixuser
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

I like the reg braking one reason, it is a great way to prevent you from skidding on a steep gravel road or driveway ;)

Mik
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Seeing that no-one else seems to take JDH serious enough I had to take the initiative:

I removed the silly passenger handle to reduce weight, so now I can go on a pizza diet!

The rider of a Vectrix is after all allowed to weigh over 1400kg - if you don't believe it, check the plate between the front fork!
.
How many pizzas can you hide under an ABCool , a RCD, an extension lead, a line splitter, a third timer and a multimeter?
Photobucket
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.
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Photobucket
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Three!
Photobucket

And without the spring and hand rail they go in and out sooo easily!

Mr. Mik

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DaveD
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Ah, I see now that you've been preparing for your next career as a pizza delivery person. Wise choice; I hear that it's a growth industry. Maybe you could somehow use the heat from the battery discharging as a way to keep the pies warm! :-)

jdh2550_1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Thanks Mik! :-)

saia - I know all about regen thanks. But, tell me this, HOW MUCH range does it add? I can't find one reference to the amount of range it adds.

Now back to the pizza, Mik, you've made me hungry!

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moccasin
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Quote:

I can't find one reference to the amount of range it adds.

The website seems to be undergoing some changes, but it used to reference something like "as much as 10%" recharge, or it might have said 12%, but a lot would depend on how much regen you normally use in your daily travels.

Obviously, if your commute was uphill all the way with no stops, your regen average would be zero percent!

I have a half mile downhill run to the highway from my house, and while most of my vehicles are either overreving the engine or smoking the brakes, the Vectrix just quietly recharges it's battery. Unfortunately, I leave the house on a "full tank", so a lot of this initial regen is likely wasted, but were it in the middle of my run, I might actually get a bit of benefit from it, other than just removing the load on the brake pads and rotors.

AndY1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

moccasin wrote:

Unfortunately, I leave the house on a "full tank", so a lot of this initial regen is likely wasted, but were it in the middle of my run, I might actually get a bit of benefit from it, other than just removing the load on the brake pads and rotors.

You can avoid that by not charging the battery fully, but only 80% full.

Buzby
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

A 10% boost on regen...? That'll be using the same slide rule that calculated insurance on a Vectrix would be 'up to 50% cheaper'. I founf it was almost 23% DEARER! :)

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moccasin
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Quote:

That'll be using the same slide rule that calculated insurance on a Vectrix would be 'up to 50% cheaper'.

Cheaper than what? Full coverage on my Vectrix is five times cheaper than my '02 Harley, which now has a value of just a bit more than the Vectrix, and is three times cheaper than either of my cars! (Vectrix is insured through Progressive)

MikeB
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

jdh2550_1 wrote:

But, tell me this, HOW MUCH range does it add? I can't find one reference to the amount of range it adds.

I think this is an important question. I don't have a number to provide, but my intuitive physics analysis tells me that it isn't much. Here's why:

In transportation, you essentially expend energy on two main areas: overcoming friction and accelerating your vehicle. Friction energy is primarily a function of velocity, and there is no way to recover it. Acceleration is essentially transforming electrical energy into inertia (a function of mass and velocity), and regenerative braking is able to recover some fraction (typically ~50%) of that inertia. In a heavy car, you have a significant faction of your total energy put into inertia. But in a lighter motorcycle, the fraction of energy stored as inertia is reduced, and more of your energy is expended on the friction side.

My gas scooter is about 1/5th the weight of my car, but it doesn't get 5 times the gas mileage. The scooter is about 1/3rd the frontal surface area of the car, which drives air friction, and mileage is not far from 3 times better than the car. Again, this leads me to feel that friction energy is a larger fraction of the total budget, as compared to a heavy car.

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Buzby
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Cheaper in comparison with an equivalent product. Harley's retain their value and there is a ready after market. The advertising of 'up to 50%' is squarely addressed at those with a similar scoot - but as a 125cc scoot is usually half the retail price of the Vectrix, hoping for a 50% reduction simply because the bike is electric is a non-starter. It just won't happen.

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Buzby
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Duplicate post

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jdh2550_1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Buzby wrote:

A 10% boost on regen...? That'll be using the same slide rule that calculated

Thanks Buzby! You've cleared up another question I had. How on earth did it take them 10 years to bring this bike to market? I now have two theories:

(1) They were using outdated technology but to be fair to Vectrix, the slide rule was bleeding edge when they started. It's a shame to see folks saddle themselves with expensive tech (like slide rules) and be reluctant to upgrade - I mean they only just got rid of the abacus.

(2) Vectrix paid all that money for great marketing and great design but that blew the budget and they could only afford one slide rule for the whole engineering team.

;-)

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AndY1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3369-vectrix-real-world-regen-braking-testing

Mik wrote:


Overall this result is consistent with my previous experiences – regen braking does add a little bit of range, in this case about 12%.

Mik
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

AndY1 wrote:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3369-vectrix-real-world-regen-braking-testing

Mik wrote:


Overall this result is consistent with my previous experiences – regen braking does add a little bit of range, in this case about 12%.

Although it's nice to be quoted...the thread which you quoted from currently ends with these words:

Mr. Mik wrote:

Any suggestions for an experimental setup to clarify these (and any other questions you might have) will be considered!

You will not possibly achieve anything like 12% range increase due to regen on the flat parts of your country, AndY1!

But your range will be much better without regen on the flat than with regen in the mountains, anyway!

Hope you get your Vectrix soon!

Mr. Mik

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AndY1
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Re: You guys need to diet! ;-)

Thank you for clarification :-)

It's true. I will rarely have to use Regen except on traffic lights. I even have to break with breaks rarely with my Renault Clio, since I anticipate the traffic lights and adjust my driving speed or if I see that I will have to stop at the traffic light, I break with an engine and only use breaks to actually stop.
My average fuel consumption in city driving during summer is 5.2 litres / 100km.

I also hope to see my Vectrix soon. It's not looking good so far. The dealer keeps delaying the shipment of the bike even though I paid in full, including for the transport, 1.5 months ago. :-(

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