My XM-5000li Experience

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Henry42
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Rear Brake Pads Alignment

I had posted this earlier, but now it is missing so I am re posting it. (I do not understand where it went)

Please check your rear brake pads and disc. My looks like this:
DSCF1800.jpg

A similiar issue existed on the XM-3500Li
DSCF1474.jpg
The front pads are aligned properly.

garygid
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Re: Rear Brake Pads Alignment

Henry,
Your first picture is showing pads that are basically aligned with the outer edge of the disk, right?

Is that front or rear, and what vehicle, please?

The second picture shows the "2/3 on" pad caused by the "unexpected" mounting of the rear calliper assembly on the 3500Li, right?

The question is: Is that mounting position intentional for some reason?

On my 5000Li both the front and rear pads appear to be "properly" aligned, basically parallel to the outer edge of the disk. Is this another "plus" for the 5000Li?

Isn't there a topic where "fixing" this "strange" mounting on the 3500Li is discussed?

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Iccarus
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Re: Rear Brake Pads Alignment

I just talked to R Martin and they sell a part to fix this. It takes about 4to5 hours to replace the mounting bracket for the calliper they said. Maybe you could get it from Xtreme under warranty. I need to do this also. Great, another project... just what I need! Well I guess I can find out for myself what kind of support I'm going to get from Xtreme,I'll call them and see what they say. The R Martins had the problem too but they are fixing it on the new models.

Bill

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

Johnny J
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Re: Rear Brake Pads Alignment

I just talked to R Martin and they sell a part to fix this. It takes about 4to5 hours to replace the mounting bracket for the calliper they said. Maybe you could get it from Xtreme under warranty. I need to do this also. Great, another project... just what I need! Well I guess I can find out for myself what kind of support I'm going to get from Xtreme,I'll call them and see what they say. The R Martins had the problem too but they are fixing it on the new models.

Bill

With the right tools it takes about 15min....

Iccarus
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Re: Rear Brake Pads Alignment

Johnny J, Thanks John I'll take a 15 minute estimate over 5 Hrs any day. I don't understand the discrepancy...I guess I'll see for myself soon enough. Maybe we're talking about two different fixes.

Bill

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

strawhistle
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Re: My XM-5000li Experience

:) :) Hay use Guys I think there is a fix for this bad brake alinement. On Vis some whare there are better instructions with pics! you have to colapse the caliper and unbolt the brake than grind away were brake body would hit if it wer rotated on the upper bolt. test with upper bolt and brake caliper till it lookes good than mark the lower bolt hole and file away (elongate) the lower hole , thus correcting the engineering flaw !! someone else ?? here had the same problem ! 8) LaTeR

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

garygid
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Re: Rear Brake Pads Alignment

To be clear, the brake-alignment "fix" you are talking about doing is for the 3500Li, right?

This "fix" is NOT needed for the 5000Li, and really should be discussed in the thread where it has already been heavily described.

Thanks, Gary

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Mikie
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Re: My XM-5000li Experience

Hey here is the link to the page on this blog:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4666-xm3500-rear-brake-alignment

I did this on my bike and it worked great--30 minutes but protect your brake disk from the grinder and/or the drill bits....Best Mikie

mikie

Henry42
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Re: Rear Brake Pads Alignment

garygid wrote:
To be clear, the brake-alignment "fix" you are talking about doing is for the 3500Li, right?

This "fix" is NOT needed for the 5000Li, and really should be discussed in the thread where it has already been heavily described.

Thanks, Gary

Approximately 2mm of the rear brake pads on the XM5000Li does not touch the rear disc. The first picture of the XM5000Li was to show what the problem looks like on the XM5000Li. I do not know about others. I was sharing what I am seeing on mine. BTW. I loosened the bolts, pushed the caliper down, then tighten the bolts again. I think it will be fine for now. At least the pads are fully contacting the disc. I prefer the pads to be at least 2mm inside the outer edge of the disc. This is the way it is on the front brake. (Again, I don't know your case or others. I am just relaying my observations)

The second picture of the rear brake pads on the XM3500Li was to show that there was a similar problem (6mm) on the XM3500Li.

I thought that those interested in upgrading from the XM3500Li to the XM5000Li would like to know. I guess I need to start a new thread which would be My XM5000Li Experience (An XM3500Li owners perspective)

Sorry for the confusion.

garygid
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5000Li Rear Brake Pads

The rear wheel of the XM-5000Li from the right side, showing the brake:

RearWheelRt-Lo.jpg

A closer view of the rear brake. It looks like normal hydraulic brake
to me, not any "ABS" brake, right? The manual just says "Disk Brake"
and does not use the term "ABS".

RearBrake-Lo.jpg

The bottom end of the brake shows the pads going right up to, or slightly
over the edge of the disk. It is hard to tell from this angle.

RearBottomPads-Lo.jpg

Another angle, more from the side, shows the side of the disk
and seems to show the pads being essentially all on the disk.
On my 5000Li, the rear pads are NOT off the disk the 2 mm that
Henry42 was describing. At most, mine mine might be off a half mm.
Perhaps there is that much play in the mounting holes, and mine
was just assembled a little better.

RearBottomDisk-Lo.jpg

Finally a view of the top end of the brake, where one can just barely see the disk
edge and the top end of the pads (just to the left of the black mounting plate).

RearTopPads-Lo.jpg

So, basically, everything seems to look fine, I think.

Perhaps others, more familiar with motorcycle brakes, will see things
that I do not see. Do you see anything else?

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
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5000li Front Brake Pads

Here is a view of the right side of the front wheel:

Front-Wheel-Rt-Lo.jpg

A closer view of the brake, again looks like a normal non-ABS brake to me.
The wear pattern here clearly does not go to the edge of the disk.

Front-Brake-Closer-Lo.jpg

The lower end of the brake shows the pads well on the disk.

Frnt-Bottom-Pads-Lo.jpg

And the top end of the brake, shows very little.

Frnt-Brk-Top-Lo.jpg

So, these front brakes look perfect to my untrained eye.
Cheers, Gary

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

AndyH
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Top Speed Check Results

Gary,

I made a quick speed run this morning with the GPS and data logger connected.

The speedometer 'pegs' against the bezel frame at about 61 or 62. This is a rough guess - there are no marks on the speedo after 60. This was strictly a top-speed run - I didn't verify the accuracy of the speedo.

Top speed for this run was 61.2 mph. There's a little breeze today, the road wasn't flat, and this is only the second discharge on the pack, so consider this a preliminary speed.

Full data (distance, speed, elevation) is available here: http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=136559&code=6cdf208ecc2f4f73d3e906a83697a9b8

It looks like 59.3 to 59.6 in the gentle uphill, with 60 at the crown and 61.2 starting down.

Andy

jdh2550_1
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Re: Top Speed Check Results

Andy - good numbers! Can you get some 0-30mph and 0-50mph times and add them to this post: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5624-performance-comparisons-vespa-250-vectrix-xm3500-amp-xm4500

All the best,
John H.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

AndyH
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Cell Balancing is Taking Time

Andy,Gary, Are you guys having any luck getting your cells close to a 3.7v average?

Yes, sorta. ;) I've just completed my first full discharge cycle. My first charge took a LOT of balancing work. Maybe the TS charger could have done the entire deed on its own, but I wasn't willing to spend the nearly two weeks it looked like it was going to take. I topped the remaining cells with 2A single cell chargers.

I did my first charge from an empty pack last night. The charge to 80% took 4 hours 40 minutes, but three cells in the pack still hadn't reached 3.65 volts after more than 14 hours.

Here's a look at the first 8 hours and 53 minutes:

Full_Charge_8point8_hours.jpg

Here is the pack when I disconnected this morning for the speed run. There appears to be a 6 pulse overlap between the two charts. You're looking at 7 hours 58 minutes of data - the far right of this chart is 14 hours 54 minutes into the charge:

end_of_charge.jpg

I'm charging directly into the pack with the factory connection, but using the Fechter/Goodrum BMS as a shunt to keep the cells from overcharging.

The pack was reasonably well balanced after the high current portion of the charge process - it wasn't until the pulsing that the slightly slower cells were uncovered. A cell level BMS, and unplugging the charger before the pulses start might be a reasonable way to keep the cells fairly happy.

AndyH
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Re: Top Speed Check Results

Andy - good numbers! Can you get some 0-30mph and 0-50mph times and add them to this post: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5624-performance-comparisons-vespa-250-vectrix-xm3500-amp-xm4500

All the best,
John H.

Ahhh...negative, Ghostrider, the pat...sorry - off course a bit. ;)

Sure - we'll get some more numbers and add them to the comparison.

AndyH
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Odometer Readings

Two new 5000Li factoids!

- The odometer is reading miles traveled, not kilometres
- I can confirm that the odometer can read 100.2 miles ;)

Henry42
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Re: Odometer Readings

I just traveled a known 10.0 miles (according to Google, Map Quest and my car's odometer. I have been traveling this route for years). The XM5000Li odometer showed just under 10.1 miles traveled.

AndyH
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Happy!

My car is a '97 VW Passat turbo diesel station wagon. She has 390,500+ miles, and I can get 42 mpg for my typical 5 mile trip to the post office and grocery store. She's served me well and saved a lot of fuel and money over the years.

This afternoon, my son and I grabbed the 5000Li, rode to a friend's to take care of their cats, hit the grocery store for more milk, and came home - about four miles total. It felt absolutely amazing that we didn't burn a drop of diesel for this fun ride.

Winning the 'drag race' with the 50CC moped on the way to the grocery store was icing on the cake. :D

Iccarus
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Re: Happy!

Andy, That sounds great. I bet you both had what we have come to know as the "electric bike grin" the whole way!

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

garygid
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The XM-5000li Fuses

There are two fuses associated with the DC-toDC converter.
The circuit schematic for the 5000Li shows a 5-amp fuse IN and a 15-amp fuse OUT.

On my 5000Li,
I found a pink 4-amp "mini-blade" size fuse going IN (pink arrow),
and a regular size automobile 15-amp blue fuse going OUT (blue arrow).

They are both in "weather-proof" rubber in-line holders, located
just to the right of the pan that holds the DC-to-DC Converter.

DcToDcFuses-Lo.jpg

Normally the fuses have the amps marked on the top and the colors are:

gray = 2 amp
violet = 3 amp
pink = 4 amp
orange = 5 amp
brown = 7.5 amp
red = 10 amp
blue = 15 amp
yellow = 20 amp
clear = 25 amp
green = 30 amp

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

strawhistle
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Re: My XM-5000li Experience

That dc-dc converter lookes much larger than the one on the 3500 That i have . they must have redesigned for headlamps and greater load ! while you have the byke open can you see what the headlamps are rated at ? thanks LaTeR

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

garygid
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XM-5000li Lighting

I will try to check the bulbs on the 5000Li, but they might be difficult to access.

The 3 tail/brake lights (up from 1 in the 3500) are 1157 bulbs with 25w for the brake and 5w for the tail light.

The DC-to-DC Converter is US made, 48 (to about 78) volts in, 12 volts out, and rated at 150 watts. Somebody looked inside the nice extruded aluminum case to find the information.

Yes, 12 volts x 15 amps = 180 watts.

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Henry42
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Re: XM-5000li Lighting

I hope I can prevent the effort of having to remove the headlight (unless of course you just want to have fun :-)). Anyway, they are 35w/35w.

Here is a picture of the headlight bulb.

DSCF1918_2.jpg

garygid
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Re: XM-5000li Lighting

Thanks Henry.

In CA we must ride with the headlights on. So,

3 tail lights at 5 watt = 1.2 amps
2 headlights at 35 w = 6 amps
3 brake lights at 25 w = 6 amps
plate light = ?
2 turn signal lamps = maybe 1 amp
Instrument Cluster = ?
Front-Center lamp = maybe 1 amp
Horn = ?

Totals at least 15 amps, times 12 = 180 watts.
So, why only a 150-watt DC-to-DC converter?
Probably it will produce more than its rating.

Looks like putting in the LED brake/tail lamps is a good idea.

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
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Re: XM-5000li Lighting

I just ordered three Red LED brake/tail 1157 "bulbs" ($15 each).
See it: http://superlumination.com/images/auto_bulbs/1156_45led_r_wm.jpg
Shipping is $4.00

At www.autolumination.com they are described as:

"SMT Tower 45 High Powered Wide Angle SMT LEDS
These Bulbs have Advanced Surface Mount Technology LEDS
36 high powered SMT side facing LEDS - 9 high powered SMT forward facing LEDS
Only 25mm diameter x 53mm overall (1" x 2.25") - fits all stock housings"

Note: These might be a little long to fit in the turn signal reflectors.
I will try them when I get them.

Also: If the turn signal lamps are all LED, there might not be enough
load on the "flasher" unit to run it properly.

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Henry42
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Re: XM-5000li Lighting

Tennessee also requires the headlights to be on during operation.

I checked the license plate light, parking light, and 3 instruments lights, 2 turn signal indicators, and high/low beam indicator. All of which are 3w bulbs (like a 194).

Let me know how the LED tail lights work out. I purchased a package of LEDs from R-Martin bikes for the XM-3500Li. The instrument LEDs were good. The brake/tail LEDs seems to be about 1/3 the light of and an 1157 (using eyesight only). I also noticed (possibly due to the angle) that the license plate light was not as bright.

garygid
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Re: XM-5000li Lighting

AndyH said that his 5000Li has 10-watt bulbs for each of the four turn signals (1156, front and back). So, a "Hazard" warning hook-up would flash 40 watts (3.3 amps).

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Mikie
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Re: My XM-5000li Experience

Hey Gary, thanks for all the good work you are putting into this forum. Very clever insight about the turn signals and not enough juice to work the switch! I will be all ears on that one. ON MY XM600072v the installer was having problems with the new Kelly controller not functioning properly. So after making him run all kinds of tests on the existing controller(which all failed) they finally are issuing another new controller. So it is still the waiting game. Keep up the good work, there are lots of eyes watching and waiting to apply the gifts we share with each other here on this blog. Best Mikie

mikie

strawhistle
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Re: My XM-5000li Experience

You can get led flashers for that ! LaTeR

thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!

garygid
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Charging the XM-5000li

My concern is that the cells might get over-charged or damaged during charging, and that might adversly affect the future range or performance of the bike.

Based on that, X-Treme OKed the addition of wiring to measure my battery cells.

I then added the 22 wires (to measure 21 cells) and connected the wiring to a 3-Remote PakTrakr to be able to better monitor and collect data. I am hoping that this will help me, us, and X-Treme determine if there are significant charging issues, using the standard ThunderSky charger.

I wrote a program for my WinXP PC to look at the PakTrakr-produced data in real time, allowing me to monitor the charging process and stop the charging if necessary.

I got the following data with the first charge of my XM-5000Li (after riding it 15 miles to get it registered) after delivery.

FirstCharge-smaller.JPG

The black line is the pack voltage, and the current does not show (I do not yet have the Current Sensor). Before charging, the cells looked "fine", with the lowest cell at about 3.29 volts and the highest at about 3.39 ... all within a 0.1 volt range. That would seem "good", right?

Using the stock charger, no BMS or such, just monitoring the voltages ...

When I saw one cell's peak voltage go over 4.2 volts, I turned off the charger.

To me, it appears that this graph shows the charger taking the highest-voltage cell over 4.2 volts at peak (when the charger was in its "pulse" charging mode, probably using approximately 2 amp pulses). Notice the lowest cell (in pink), at about 3.37 volts, appears to need a lot more charging.

How high would the voltage on the high cells go if I left it charging for several days, in an attempt to fully charge the low cells?

So, what does all this mean for "safe" and "balanced" charging?

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

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