Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

25 posts / 0 new
Last post
Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

My local city is gettinf onto the eco bandwagon, and qill shortly be installing a network of 40 (yes, forty) electric recharging points, for the free use of electric vehicle users. The (possible) downside is that for the purposes of the initial trial, these will be mounted on pillars with a 5-pin (red plug) 3-phase supply. This is to work with a fleet of Peugeot vehicles that can 'fast charge' in just 20 minutes using the 415v 3-phase supply.

Now, 3-phase is a closed book to me, havng never worked in an environment that used or even needed it - so treat me gently! I am aware it is quite possible to connect a converter to a single phase supply to turn it into a pseudo 3-phase 415v connection. Is the OPPOSITE of this also true... that I can EITHER source a 3-phase to single phase convertor (if such an animal exists), or would I be correct in thinking I would really only need to fabricate a connector lead, with a 5-pin RED plug for the 3-phase connection, and a standard socket on a flying lead, wired to ONE of the phases and the Neutral...?

The supporters of the trial say that they may change their pillers to accommodate additional sockets, but for the run up, IF I can plug into the their red 3 Phase sockets, I can with their blessing, so my question is - can I do this simply?

tom5007
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 08:56
Points: 147
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

My local city is gettinf onto the eco bandwagon, and qill shortly be installing a network of 40 (yes, forty) electric recharging points, for the free use of electric vehicle users. The (possible) downside is that for the purposes of the initial trial, these will be mounted on pillars with a 5-pin (red plug) 3-phase supply. This is to work with a fleet of Peugeot vehicles that can 'fast charge' in just 20 minutes using the 415v 3-phase supply.

Now, 3-phase is a closed book to me, havng never worked in an environment that used or even needed it - so treat me gently! I am aware it is quite possible to connect a converter to a single phase supply to turn it into a pseudo 3-phase 415v connection. Is the OPPOSITE of this also true... that I can EITHER source a 3-phase to single phase convertor (if such an animal exists), or would I be correct in thinking I would really only need to fabricate a connector lead, with a 5-pin RED plug for the 3-phase connection, and a standard socket on a flying lead, wired to ONE of the phases and the Neutral...?

The supporters of the trial say that they may change their pillers to accommodate additional sockets, but for the run up, IF I can plug into the their red 3 Phase sockets, I can with their blessing, so my question is - can I do this simply?

You should have no issue to get your "converter" from a electrician. 3 phase is actually 3 x 220V (L1 + L2 + L3). However, the thre L's are phase shifted (which ultimately gives you the 415V). By using only one of the thre phases (i.e. L1) you will have your standard plain 220V. There might be an issue with the juice points as they might expect a balanced load (all three phases to be used). If this is the case you really look into a more complicated converter and not just the L1 as described above. May I ask which city you are talking about?

Norman

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Thanks Norman,

The city is Glasgow - I was aware of the phase shift, but I assumed in view of the differing types of connections to the 3Phase sockets, adding kit to ensure only all legs are active would add to the cost, and create issues furter down the line (pun intended). I think I'll invest in a 5-pin plug and make up a lead with a local-style socket that will allow the Vectrix to plug to it. I'll let you know how it goes - I'm assuming the connections will be L1 + N + E...? (to the Vectrix)

- Raymond

tom5007
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 08:56
Points: 147
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Thanks Norman,

The city is Glasgow - I was aware of the phase shift, but I assumed in view of the differing types of connections to the 3Phase sockets, adding kit to ensure only all legs are active would add to the cost, and create issues furter down the line (pun intended). I think I'll invest in a 5-pin plug and make up a lead with a local-style socket that will allow the Vectrix to plug to it. I'll let you know how it goes - I'm assuming the connections will be L1 + N + E...? (to the Vectrix)

Yep, the connector is plain L1 + N + E.

Good to see Glasgow setting up these charging points. I wish more and mor cities would go the way of Glasgow. In London we've got chaos. Every and each borough of London is doing their own scheme. OK, all "juicepoints" are the same make (Elektromotive) but you can only use the juice points within your own borough. What a waste of resources. There are many juicepoints in London that are hardly every used but still, every little kingdom (no I should say borough) needs to have their regulation to who should be allowed to use these points.

What is the model they implement in Gllasgow? Do you need a subscription, key? What are the costs ...

Norman

rgx
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 10 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 13:01
Points: 137
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

If you really want to do it by the book, you should also put a fuse on the converting cable. Most likely the 3-phase connector is fused to 25A or more, but the Vectrix is made for 16A (or is it perhaps up to 20A in UK). The fuse should match the capacity of the consumer cable, otherwise you risk burning the cable (or the Vectrix) without the fuse releasing. Likelyhood of this event is small especially with this small difference (16A vs 25A), but still.

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

To be fair - there's Government money in this too - Glasgow I believe is one of 9 cities earmarked for this initiative, and it ties in local interest groups. There's a major input from Peugeot who have quite a range of vehicles available from box-van to LWB transit-type models, all with a battery pack installed in the engine compartment, which means the rear of the vehicle can take a standard payload and not worrying about the cargo space being filled with cells!

Whilst I was initially impressed with the Elektromotive product, it is too clever by half, and overengineered = making each 'point' cost somewhere in the reagion of £2000, all for a 13a socket with an LCD display and pretty colour-changing lights. For the Pergeot vans, the requirement is for a 3 phase connection as a minimum and as the Elektrobay pillars cannot physically cope with these dimensions of plug, I seriouly doubt whether these will ever be a contender to supply.

I'm keeping my ear close to the ground and will keep the forum updated on how the urban charging points will be managed and run. The first 2 points, within the grounds of the Pergeot dealership are already available for use, and are complete open. Due to my enquiries, and visiting them on the Vectrix, got their unpromptes suggestion that should I ever need a 'hit', just to announce to Security that I was on site and I was free to use the facilities. (Which I have to admit, was better than I had hoped).

Currently, they are working out with Scottish Power the best places to distribute the sockets, and this will be done with due reference to the road network and the ability to access (initially) off-street but accessible locations where two vehicles at a time can access the point which will be double-sided. The impression I got that there will be an inner and outer circle of points to ensure nobody would be more than 10 Km from a recharging point, wherever they were within the greater Glasgow conurbation.

As you noted - having access to charging points in Camden when you're in Richmond and running to a halt is no laughing matter, although Tesco's initiative on this may do something to wrest the initiative from the councils. I'd much rather have a coffee and use the loo in Tesco whilst my vextrix is recharging - than looking through a bunch of Electrobay RF keys for one to open the box I'm at.

Well, I've just won my first 5pin 415v plug on eBay - for £1.20 plus post - and the guy claims to have 200 of them available for listing later. It might be a useful investment for other Vectrix owners when confrinted with a free 3phase hook-up and a 13amp Vectrix plug!

- Raymond

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

duplicate

- Raymond

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

If you really want to do it by the book, you should also put a fuse on the converting cable. Most likely the 3-phase connector is fused to 25A or more, but the Vectrix is made for 16A (or is it perhaps up to 20A in UK). The fuse should match the capacity of the consumer cable, otherwise you risk burning the cable (or the Vectrix) without the fuse releasing. Likelyhood of this event is small especially with this small difference (16A vs 25A), but still.

I had thought of this - but unlike the European 2-pin plug, the UK plug variant is already fused (at 13 amps) and is one of the unusual nature of the UK-style power plugs, without exception, they are ALL fused to whichever is the most appropriate; 1, 3, 5 or 13a.

- Raymond

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

This thread has been added to the Vectrix Collaborative Handbook, please stay on topic!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

R
R's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
Joined: Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 09:46
Points: 1758
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

I saw Masvidal's Vectrix charger being fried up due to unbalanced load in a 3 phase recharging point.... (with many other vehicles recharging also from there). Taking one phase will work fine but you should use a main fuse for safety purposes....

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

My eBay purchase of a 3-phase (RED 415v) plug arrived a few days ago and I was anxious to try it out! I had a 2m mains cable so I wired this up to the red plug as E-N-L1, and connected the other end to a standard UK 13amp trailing socket, wired conventionally.

On of Glasgow's electric car dealerships as a 4-vehicle bay with a 3-phase round sockets spaces 3 metres apart. So (with prior permission) rode up and hooked up with no problems at all. The VX1 behaved normally, with the fans starting and the speedo showing the inbound charging current - but og course, I was only using 1 of the 3 available phases. There were no additional protection devices prepared to susped the supply because only a signle phase was being drawn, so that problem did not manifest itself.

To all intents and purposes, the hook-up looked the same as the adjacent electric vehicles, only that thwy would be recharged considerably quicker than me (in around 22 minutes). The wire from the red wall plug snaked ubder the main seat through the gap for the cable, presenting a socket to match the plug on the end of the Vectrix lead. As it was juat starting to rain, this meant the soxket was fully contained within the seat void, so no issues over rain falling on to the cabling. The cable running from the seat to the 3-phase socket was of course weatherproof.

After my 2 hours top-up, I just un hooked and off I wnt. Success!

I'd suggest to all Vectrix owners the fact a 3-phase supply looks unfamiliar should not bar you from obraining a recharge if a standard outlet is not available. I'm keeping my new jumper cable with me for those times when I really need a quick top-up, and of course, until Glasgow's network of 40 public 3P recharging points goes live!

- Raymond

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Taking one phase will work fine but you should use a main fuse for safety purposes....

Unless you have the UK Vectrix lead, which is already fused at 13 amps.

Nokia139 640x480.jpg

The finished article.

- Raymond

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Hi Buzby,

where is that 13A fuse in the Vectrix UK lead?

The Ozzi version has no fuse (not that I know of, anyway).

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

avronw
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 6 months ago
Joined: Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 20:00
Points: 35
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

All UK plugs have a fuse built into the actual plug, so UK Vectrix will have the at the end of their charging cable.

UK Plug with Fuse

forky
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 6 months ago
Joined: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 16:22
Points: 2
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Can I run a standard UK socket from an existing 3-phase supply? If the supply (pictured) is three fused lives where does the neutral come in?3 phase open.JPG

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

that 3-phase supply is intended for a load that is run in delta.
in your case, there is no neutral to connect to.
when there is no neutral, no single phase devices (ie your vectrix) can be used.

only 3-phase supplies with the neutral can be used to charge a vectrix.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

JDi
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 16:13
Points: 23
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

You'd either have to get that re-wired from delta to wye or connect a transformer across two of the lines then step down from 415 volts to 220.
Mathematically, the neutral point of a 415 volt 3-phase supply is closer to 240 V than 220 (415/sq.rt 3 = 239.6).

Some really good info here:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/5.html
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/6.html

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

And at my first use, it all went pear shaped as my RED plug failed to connect. The problem? The socket I came across had an additional TWO 'dimples' on the internal edge of the socket that prevented my plug connecting.

EVERYTHING else was correct - same pins, orientation and spacing, but the additional contouring within the socket prevented the plug sliding into the socket, and I'm absolutely bereft and the stupidity of such a change. Does anyone know why this is - or can identify whether this is a new 'standard' that nobody else is aware of?

- Raymond

R
R's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
Joined: Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 09:46
Points: 1758
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Never seen that before. Not stupid at all: they may want to prevent unknown people (like you) from plugging in. I suggest you ask who installed the plugs and buy him the suitable plug. As you drive an EV, they'll probably sell it to you.

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Didn't appear to be a security feature - and I asked at the Garage and they were quite distresssed, saying they had oped the socket could be used by anyone to charge their EV (as they do with their electric van). THey simply got an electrician to fit a socket that matched the plug on their vehicle, and assumed it was 'universal' (well, for 3-phase, anyway!). THe box is marked with an MK logo and declares it is 32amps - nothing else to go on!

- Raymond

R
R's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
Joined: Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 09:46
Points: 1758
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

He!
Nice they wanted to fit the recharging posts with "universal plugs"
Keep on searching for the installer: You must contact that electrician... He'll provide you a suitable plug

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

I've emailled MK Customer services (the socket manufacturer) for their advise - I'll lewt the forum know whast their response is!

- Raymond

Buzby
Buzby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:13
Points: 318
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

Mystery solved! (But you're not going to believe the answer!)

We're used to our standard domestic plugs being 'universal' - with much of continental europe havig the standard two pins. whilst UK & Ireland went with a 3-pin (square) design. Since a 3-phase socket can comprise of 4 (3L+1N) or 5 (3L+2N) pins, the assumption would mean to take a feed from a 3 phase supply, you would need ONE of the two 2-phase plug options...?

Wrong! MK advised that they supply 3-phase sockets/plug for different situations, a SPLASHPROOF and WATERPROOF versions. The plugs that fit into these sockets cannot be interchangeable even if they have the same number of pins, and maximum amperage. So, making use of a three phase supply to charge your Vextrix will NOT be straightforward, as you will have a minimum of FOUR different socket types to contend with;

4 pin - Splash
4 pin - Waterproof
5 pin - Splash (plug pictured)
5 pin - Waterproof (socket pictured)

So an EV rider would have to carry 4 different jumper leads to made with all eventualities of a 32amp connection.

On balnce, it would appear to be safer to IGNORE the ability to use 3phase 'on spec' and be prepared to use it only where you know the precise plug type and connection required.

- Raymond

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

acutally, the vectrix may not be compatible with eihter of hte 4 pin variants in 240v countries, as the voltage between them is 380-415v.
the power electronics within the charger may not be able to handle this.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

R
R's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
Joined: Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 09:46
Points: 1758
Re: Vectrix and the 3-Phase Supply!

the vectrix may not be compatible with eihter of hte 4 pin variants in 240v countries, as the voltage between them is 380-415v.
the power electronics within the charger may not be able to handle this.

You mean that the vectrix charger can't handle 400v? He will only use one of the three phases with neutral, giving him the 240v he needs... (4 pins: 3 phases+neutral?)

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • Autosellworld
  • icandyb
  • jasonk
  • ridethelightning
  • va7db

Customize This