Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

104 posts / 0 new
Last post
marcopolo
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:33
Points: 837
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Ah, of all the industries affected by the current recession, it's great to see the conspiracy industry is still thriving!!

Sadly, RaDy, a college degree does not make you capable of good judgement, in fact all those guy's at Enron, Fannie Mae and Mac,the various banks, GM, Chrysler etc were all well educated. Even ferociously successful and well regarded families can over-reach themselves, look at the Porche and VW takeover debacle. Actually most of the corporate incompetents and crooks I have met, have higher education. After all, President Nixon was a lawyer, who surrounded himself with lawyers and other highly qualified fools. I'm afraid it's time you woke up to the reality that there simply are no sinister evil forces we aren't told about. Just old fashioned greedy egomaniac's, bloated with self delusion, and sometimes sadly these people can be very deceptive, even charismatic. just like ole Bernie Madoff.

Vectrix was run very much like the worst of the ego driven dot com's. The result was the same. But the loss was relatively small, and did actually produce something tangible.

Wasting time inventing conspiracy fantasies is pointless, it is important to learn from Vectrix and move on to build realistic EV's .

marcopolo

marcopolo
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:33
Points: 837
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Rady, we seem to be playing tag!

In reply to your last Post, No the Chinese would not "buy thousands of Vectrix". Why would they? A Vectrix would be an incredibly expensive product in China, and pretty pointless because it would not be adapted to Chinese conditions. The Chinese market neither wants nor requires all the expensive engineering that goes into Vectrix quality and SAFETY. There simply are no electric scooters sold in large quantities in the West. The few that are imported are of poor quality, slow and unable to realistically cope with modern western traffic conditions! In fact very few countries will even register these inherently dangerous machines. Yes, These products have a few enthusiasts who are fans but not enough to be economically viable.

India makes an electric car, the REVA, this ridiculous, crappy little vehicle has been touted as bringing in a new age in EV development. The UK has been producing better and safer EV milk floats for the last 80 years, but I would drive my children to school in one!

No, I did not say Mr Boyle had personal motives for killing off Vectrix. It was just the usual ego driven bad management,coupled with a desire to remain in control at all costs, that killed Vectrix. This is not an uncommon phenomena in business failures.In this case it was compounded by weak willed fellow Directors. How much he and his followers personally gained from the collapse? Well that is a question yet to be decided by a court appointed administer. Until then, the only accurate thing you can say is that Mr Boyle is a bad manager, who is surprisingly reluctant to step into the witness box to justify under oath his behaviour. Again, this does not imply guilt in the criminal sense, perhaps he is just following prudent legal advice.

Until a court says differently, Mr Boyle is entitled to be considered free of any criminal intent.

Would any other "professional" have behaved differently? Of course they would! I can think of no competent, ethical CEO, who would refuse to visit, or even allow any employee, to visit an important Distributor/Client simply because they complained on behalf of their customers about excessive of manufacturing defects. It is not unknown, but considered bad practised, to attempt to first bully and then involve his company in expensive (but disastrous litigation) rather than just go and investigate then FIX THE PROBLEM.

You see, even if he had won by virtue of superior funds, the various litigations, what would the result be? It would not alleviate the bitter and resentful distributor, and unhappy customers. this is not very conducive to encouraging SALES performance. This is not good business but egomania.

Why he offended and refused to consider offers from realistic suitors, can only be a matter of speculation. It maybe that he would have found a suitor's competent due diligence study, very awkward! We don't know. As I say, we can only speculate. All will be revelled in due course. One thing I can say, is that Mr Boyle is no shy idealist!!

In relation to BP, look, I am not an evocate for the antic's of oil companies. But you must keep a sense of perspective, the corporations are businesses. They exist to make profits! They are not charities! BP simply decided that ethical good governance was profitable. The main difference with BP is that they attempt to be a Petro-Chemical energy company, rather than a BASIC Petrol Company like Chevron etc.. They sure ain't saints, but they ain't devil incarnate either. BP's search for alternative energy relies on surplus profits. Now, I don't know if you have noticed, but surplus profits are fairly thin on the ground in the current climate! This means less money for research etc.. but BP's ecofuel budget is still enormous, and totally voluntary. You can find far more valid targets than BP on whom to vent your green righteous anger.

marcopolo

RaDy
RaDy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:16
Points: 334
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

I agree with you in many aspects, but not in the one about Electric Vehicles.
Why, with all our technology and know how we still dont have an EV market? Because all EV Company managers are fools? No. Simply because all laws and "forces" are against it.
Think about it, if we all had an EV and we all had Solar Panels and Small Aerogenerators where would goverments get all their taxes from?
And keep in to account that with technology improving: EVs ,Solar Panels and areogenerators will improve dramatically untill everyone will be selling energy back to the grid.So everyone will come out wining and Goverments and Big Companies of energy will come out loosing. If you keep in account that most Wars have to do with Energy controlling then you can guess why it is not intresting for some people that Energy becomes cheap and easily available to everyone. And That is the problem of Electricity. Too cheap and available for everyone and you can produce it yourself with not so expensive technology and right now you ca even sell it with a profit. So whatever we do, anything to do with electricity becoming primary energy for everything, is going to be artificially held back as much as possible. At least in the Western world. China is a different story.They will end making all Evs, all Batteries and most of the things to do "Electrifying" the world.
Its the failure of VECTRIX which has revived my anger towards the Energy theme.
Raj

marcopolo
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:33
Points: 837
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Hmmm..we're getting a bit off track. but I will try to explain it to you.

1. There is no 'conspiracy'! There are no EV consumer vehicles yet produced that can adequately replace ICE vehicles. This not because of sinister dark 'forces' but simply because the technology doesn't yet exist!
2. Governments have always levied taxes! Long, long, before oil or electricity production.Invent it, government will tax it! Actually, the Government can simply tax YOU!(Poll tax, income tax etc..)
3. All wars are not about energy. Actually, we are entering into an era of idiotic wars, the same old prejudices, religion,ego,race etc..
4. Like all idealist your heart is in the right place,but you equate hope with reality! Solar Panels and areogenerators, like EV's are great, but do the math, these are piddling amounts of energy generation, in comparison to the worlds needs, oh, and before everyone gets all indignant about dramatic lessening of consumption, the vast majority of people simply won't do it voluntarily, nor will they be forced.(doomsdays notwithstanding.
4. Now I like Chinese people, but I would certainly not advance China as the new Utopia! China, (I assume you mean the Peoples Republic) is a very long way behind the West in Innovation and creative development. The main reason that China can produce cheap batteries is the appallingly unhealthy labour conditions and Eco-vandalism of the factories and waste disposal. China will not electrify the world for a long time yet. China's electricity production is far more expensive that most Western countries, despite its coal,nuclear and hydros having appalling Environmental records. You would be much better seeing the developments of Korea and Japan, and even India.EV developers from Norway to Australia (Mik !)are beavering away. The first really commercially feasible EV is a not a product of China, but the UK! China will one day solve it's enormous social problems and play its part in the innovation, but before that happens, China will have to change its system of government, education and much of its culture.

Your dream is just that, a nice dream, hey that's not bad! Everyone should have a dream!Just don't try to fool yourself that what you hope will come true, is currant FACT.

marcopolo

Jim Knopf
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:05
Points: 39
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

hmmm, it seems that you run out of players!?
I do love my bike, I have it now for nearly one year and not a single problem with it! Its is a great product and I wish Vectrix
all the luck in the world, so that they can keep trading in the future. I have watched this forum now for more than 3 days and
I am very surprised that "Marcopolo" as an "Investor" and "Shareholder" of Vectix has so much time and energy left to spend all this time in this forum in these days! I really do wonder if an Vectrix "Investor" would not may act in a completely different way, than to
rubbish the CEO of the company, who he has invested his money!! Very, very strange!!

Martina Engels

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

7. John, I hate to disagree with you, but,well.. at $4000.00 dollars no company could make money selling a freeway legal EV.

That was tongue in cheek - and refers to the rather lackluster performance specs of the Brammo Enertia.

However, a Vectrix like bike can be done far less expensively.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Hmmm..we're getting a bit off track. but I will try to explain it to you.

1. There is no 'conspiracy'! There are no EV consumer vehicles yet produced that can adequately replace ICE vehicles. This not because of sinister dark 'forces' but simply because the technology doesn't yet exist!

I absolutely agree that there is no conspiracy. However, I absolutely disagree as to why there is no EV. The technology does exist. Any of the major manufacturers could make a 100/80/20 car (100 mile range, 80 mph top speed, $20K MSRP). They just don't want to - and trying to force them to do it is pointless.

The reason the major manufacturers fail is that they try and solve the wrong problems and they too want an "instant" success selling millions of EVs a year. It ain't going to happen.

A small manufacturer will make it work - courtesy of an Asian major manufacturer willing to sell rolling chassis at competitive price.

However, the playing field is not level, never has been and never will be. One can bitch about it, or spin conspiracy theories. Or one can get on with the job of making it happen. Marcopolo - you call out the conspiracy theorists as niave - fair enough. However, surely you can't be naive enough to believe that the market is a level playing field where simply the best product wins?

Mass adoption of EVs can happen, and will happen but it won't be because of some "silver bullet" technology.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

RaDy
RaDy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:16
Points: 334
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Hmmm..we're getting a bit off track. but I will try to explain it to you.

1. There is no 'conspiracy'! There are no EV consumer vehicles yet produced that can adequately replace ICE vehicles. This not because of sinister dark 'forces' but simply because the technology doesn't yet exist!
2. Governments have always levied taxes! Long, long, before oil or electricity production.Invent it, government will tax it! Actually, the Government can simply tax YOU!(Poll tax, income tax etc..)
3. All wars are not about energy. Actually, we are entering into an era of idiotic wars, the same old prejudices, religion,ego,race etc..
4. Like all idealist your heart is in the right place,but you equate hope with reality! Solar Panels and areogenerators, like EV's are great, but do the math, these are piddling amounts of energy generation, in comparison to the worlds needs, oh, and before everyone gets all indignant about dramatic lessening of consumption, the vast majority of people simply won't do it voluntarily, nor will they be forced.(doomsdays notwithstanding.
4. Now I like Chinese people, but I would certainly not advance China as the new Utopia! China, (I assume you mean the Peoples Republic) is a very long way behind the West in Innovation and creative development. The main reason that China can produce cheap batteries is the appallingly unhealthy labour conditions and Eco-vandalism of the factories and waste disposal. China will not electrify the world for a long time yet. China's electricity production is far more expensive that most Western countries, despite its coal,nuclear and hydros having appalling Environmental records. You would be much better seeing the developments of Korea and Japan, and even India.EV developers from Norway to Australia (Mik !)are beavering away. The first really commercially feasible EV is a not a product of China, but the UK! China will one day solve it's enormous social problems and play its part in the innovation, but before that happens, China will have to change its system of government, education and much of its culture.

Your dream is just that, a nice dream, hey that's not bad! Everyone should have a dream!Just don't try to fool yourself that what you hope will come true, is currant FACT.

Dreaming is the first step in many things of life. Doing something about that dream is the second step , for example buying a Vectrix scooter, because you want to belive in that dream.

1. The conspiracy theory is just 1 very possible answer. The technology of a competitive EV does exist, its simply too expensive! Would be dead cheap by now if it wouldnt have been killed off in the 1900s!
Id bet that Poor decent Smith Electrics will disapear soon like all others. Can you give me a reason why it will survive?
Id bet more on Tesla (with gov loans, DAIMLER Backing and Cash from its owners or Mitsubishi with the iMiev.
2. Yes, i know they can tax you. But its not the same. Taxing Petrol is very easy and cheap. And you can always say its in the benefit of Health, like they have done here in Spain by saying that every litre of Petrol has to pay 1 cent for Social Sanity.
But imagine if they taxed you for making your own green, clean electricity. What would be the excuse?
3. Many Wars are about Energy and religion,etc... are the excuses used for people to back them up.
4. They are small in electricity production for the moment because there is no interest. Is it normal that a country like Spain Is 3rd in the world in Aerogenerated electricity?? We have far less wind that all the Northern European Countries. If it was in Sun i could understand but the country who produces more electricity via Solar Panels in Europe is Germany!!!!
There, is a reason to understand why Aerogenerator buissness works in Spain(not the most windy place in the world),and Solar Panels in Germany(Not the most sunny place in the world).It is "forces" of interest that provoke this.
Why cant we have a force of interest in Evs? Because the interest of the force is totally in the other direction.
5. I agree with you in many of those aspects, but there is a difference if the goverment is interested in something it helps it out immediately, thats why i think they will be one of the first countries in the world to embrace EVs, India will come second.

Now after Vectrix my dream of an Ev has to go somewhere else, maybe a Tesla, Smart ED, Mitsubishi iMiev? have you noticed none of them are chinese.
Raj

RaDy
RaDy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:16
Points: 334
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Rady, we seem to be playing tag!

In reply to your last Post, No the Chinese would not "buy thousands of Vectrix". Why would they? A Vectrix would be an incredibly expensive product in China, and pretty pointless because it would not be adapted to Chinese conditions. The Chinese market neither wants nor requires all the expensive engineering that goes into Vectrix quality and SAFETY. There simply are no electric scooters sold in large quantities in the West. The few that are imported are of poor quality, slow and unable to realistically cope with modern western traffic conditions! In fact very few countries will even register these inherently dangerous machines. Yes, These products have a few enthusiasts who are fans but not enough to be economically viable.

India makes an electric car, the REVA, this ridiculous, crappy little vehicle has been touted as bringing in a new age in EV development. The UK has been producing better and safer EV milk floats for the last 80 years, but I would drive my children to school in one!

A chinese company would do the same with Vectrix as what they have done with ROVER, make the car half the price(without the over engeneering) and when prepared sell the export one to the world.Just like Rover
Chinese Ev scooters are not more dangerous that small 50cc ICE scooters, but some countries dont want to register them because they are not intrested, like always. An electric bike once sold never needs Petrol and Oil and not so many more wearing out spare parts, So where would the govs continue to make money from this cheao and low energy consuming Scooter?
Yes, the Reva, thats exactly the IMAGE of EVs that all those "forces" want. They want it to look cheap, bad, unsafe , Low Tech(Lead acid Batteries, etc..) and (in the case of Automobile Industry) made in India, its perfect for them. We dont have to worry about Reva, it wont Disappear, at least not by those influences.
All the adjectives i have used to describe the Reva are exactly the opposite for the Vectrix, thats why it was danger.

About Mr. Boyle, i dont want to waste my time.
About BP, i have no problem with them, they are simply looking for their interests, which in the long run will clash with the World.
If they are an Energy Company, why dont they invest and investigate thoroughly in Batteries???
Raj

holygrail
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 4 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 05:58
Points: 4
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings
marcopolo
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:33
Points: 837
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

What do I say Jim, well it would rather seem Vectrix Corp have run out of 'players'. I don't think you get it, do you? Vectrix Ltd, was not a noble enterprise backed by private billionaire philanthropists, as a tax loss experiment. Vectrix was a Public Company that raised over $400 million dollars of private shareholder funds. those funds have been completely squandered by an arrogant CEO. I think I have not only a right, but an duty to Criticise !!! All the luck in the world?? Keep trading?? Do you think if we all sit still and don't criticise the CEO, the Great Helmsman will back the ship off the rocks, and all will be well? Get real !

Oh, By the way, both myself and my companies(in several countries)bought 17 Vectrix, you see we all believed in the company until the arrival of Mr Boyle. So gee.. I think I have just a little experience of the product!

Raj, Smith Electrics will survive and prosper, because they have picked a commercially viable niche market, are competently and conservatively managed, and have an alliance with a major auto-manufacturer, plus a business history over 80 years.

What you say about government incentives is true, also laws, it is difficult to explain why the nearly all countries have enforceable speed limits, we still manufacture vehicles that can exceed the limits by 2 and even 3 times. This preconditions the market against the speed limited EV.

The argument that the Chinese made ROVER cheaper, well so could anyone if you don't have to pay the costs of innovation development, R&D competitive marketing, union wages, environmental,etc.. Your statement that Competitive EV technology already exists its just too expensive, needs some clarification, if is too expensive its not competitive?

JDH, Actually, I don't think price is the only barrier. The Prius, Lexus hybrid range showed that it is easier to sell new technology to the top end, it just has to be trusted. I am not an engineer, but I drive a Lexus hybrid,i know it's just a token gesture, but I trust Toyota technology and service. Sadly, Vectrix (as Mik) will tell you failed to really prove enough reliability and service. All the faithful believers like Jim Knopf, don't seem to get the fact that Vectrix failed to sell more than a few thousand bikes, at a loss of over $100,000 dollars per bike.

As I have been saying for the last few years, the CAR EV will emerge and take over from ICE's, but it will be produced by the major Auto makers, not small underfunded independents.

marcopolo

RaDy
RaDy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:16
Points: 334
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Marcopolo,
I hope Smith Electrics survives, its just that none of these (Not major)companies seem to make it.
Reffering to making the Vectrix by a chinese Company, thats the whole point ... they dont have to pay or spend anything in costs of innovation development, R&D competitive marketing, union wages, environmental,etc.. , Thats why they are the only ones that will be able to make money. Im not saying this is correct but sadly only they can make them in large qtys at a cheap price, because of all those points mentioned.
EV technology exists, but for Europe or United States its just too expensive to be cheap and profitable(competitive) because here we respect laws,workers enviroment etc.. . and plus there are "forces" against it.
But Im not talking about whats wrong and right, i am talking about the realistic facts about the world we live in and thats the chance for a Chinese company, all the work and expense has been done by Vectrix, now they just have to pick up all whats left and apply their buissness policies(not saying they are correct but exist) and we could probably get a Vectrix at 5.000€ with a lithium Battery(which they are major manufacturers) and i think that the product would still be much better that Chinese Scooters that are around!
And luckily "forces" cant do anything in China.

I agree that EVs can only survive and be Viable only if they come for Major manufacturers, thats why my next Ev is going to be one of those mentioned before, maybe not the Tesla for the moment :)
Raj

Jim Knopf
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:05
Points: 39
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

"Marcopolo" i really do question your intentions!One time "Shareholder and Investor" next time "companies in several countries"
"bought 17 bikes" In YOUR position, I would pray for a good outcome!
I speak for people they do own bikes and not just only 17, they all are happy with it and the service Vectrix has provided,
for sure they are very concerned about that what happens at the moment, they have all the right to be concerned!
The "show" you here is in my opinion a " personal Hate campaign " with the lowest value I ever came across!
To tell some one off for wishing a Company all the luck in world, tells me that the only one that has to become real is
"Marcopolo" him self, There is a lobby for Vectrix and you will not change it my friend!
All your " big bubbles" give me the impression from a very poor man, who got"stepped on his far to big tail"!

Martina Engels

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

I speak for people they do own bikes and not just only 17, they all are happy with it and the service Vectrix has provided,
for sure they are very concerned about that what happens at the moment, they have all the right to be concerned!

Three days of reading the forums, heh? Impressive!

No problems with your scooter either, even better. Hey, you are really qualified to wave the flag, after all you are the second Ozzi posting here who is still happy with the Vectrix and the service! The first one was Bigtony, but that was over a year ago and we have not heard of him since then.

All the others I have heard of are rather disenchanted and some seem to be considering legal action.

I have been following this whole thing closely from the start, and there is nothing in Marcopolo's writing that is inconsistent with my personal experience or with what I have heard and read elsewhere.
He is writing in a very balanced fashion, except he really does not like that CEO. I cannot really comment on that, I have no inside knowledge of it, but it sure seems to add up!

I personally have no doubt that Marcopolo is well informed and telling the truth as best as he knows it!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Jim Knopf
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:05
Points: 39
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Thank you very much for your warm welcome Mik,
I do not send my comments from Australia,I am sending from the UK, sorry that you got confused
I am speaking about my personal impressions and nothing more or less and if that courses other people to think a bit more about what is written in this great forum that would be fantastic, I honestly believe that a forum like this is their to collect different
opinions and views and everybody who comes along and joins,can form his very own opinion about the written articles.

Martina Engels

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

I do not send my comments from Australia, I am sending from the UK, sorry that you got confused

Well, it says "Australia" in your account information!

I can believe there are many more happy customers in the UK than in Australia, the tyranny of distance and the hot climate make Australia a tough place for selling EV's.

But even in cool Tasmania there has been lots of trouble with failing batteries, maybe one day we will find out why.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

belrose
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 7 months ago
Joined: Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 23:51
Points: 11
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Well, what a fascinatingly active forum. I have to add my 2 cents worth to the Australian side of the story, though I did not know that they were having so much trouble with Vectrix US.

I bought a demo Vectrix in October 2008, which when it was delivered turned out (after some months of investigation) not to have had the VIN properly registered when it was imported into the country, so I am unable to register it. Vectrix AU lent me a set of trade plates which I am still running around on, however the bike itself has major problems - the battery temp sensors and motor drive board have been replaced once already and I suspect are failing again ... my range is down from 65-75 km to 35-40 km and I keep getting various errors and malfunctions that make the bike VERY unreliable. It's a new technology, there will be bugs ... I understand this. What I can't accept is Vectrix AU not having the courtesy to return my phone calls and having taken in excess of 7 months and counting to rectify serious problems with the bike. If this is due to an overwhelming flood of manufacturing defects becoming apparent, then a little communication would go a long way.

It is tragic that the company is going under, but in the end any company must have a viable business model and ethics to survive. Customer service I think will be the main differentiating factor between companies that fail and those that survive. Companies have been known to thrive with poor products, but excellent customer service ... in the end it is this that wins customer loyalty.

Ugh ... it's 3am ... I had plenty more to say but my brain is turning into fairy floss :)

We need to stick together and pool our resources as Vectrix owners in light of this situation, not snipe at each other. We all have a right to be a little (or a lot) upset about the way things have panned out, having blind faith and optimism in the company's ability to pull through (when it appears to be less than a month away from bankruptcy and complete dismemberment) will not, sadly, effect a positive outcome.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Oh, By the way, both myself and my companies(in several countries)bought 17 Vectrix, you see we all believed in the company until the arrival of Mr Boyle. So gee.. I think I have just a little experience of the product!

That sounds interesting - tell us more! (and ignore the trolls - that's advice I can never manage to follow myself).

JDH, Actually, I don't think price is the only barrier. The Prius, Lexus hybrid range showed that it is easier to sell new technology to the top end, it just has to be trusted. I am not an engineer, but I drive a Lexus hybrid,i know it's just a token gesture, but I trust Toyota technology and service. Sadly, Vectrix (as Mik) will tell you failed to really prove enough reliability and service. All the faithful believers like Jim Knopf, don't seem to get the fact that Vectrix failed to sell more than a few thousand bikes, at a loss of over $100,000 dollars per bike.

I don't think price is the only barrier either - but it's often overlooked. The conversation goes "well people pay a premium to buy a hybrid so they'd pay a premium to buy anything". I think to say that you have Lexus hybrid isn't really that good a comparison - because the base price for an ICE lexus is already pretty darn expensive. I just don't think the US market (sorry, that's the one I'm most interested in) wasn ready to spend $12K on a scooter. Look at the premium in terms of percentage and a Vectrix carries close to 100%I spoke with one Vectrix dealer who said that he had a lot of serious folks that went far beyond the tire-kicking phase but just couldn't justify the cost. Of course that's just anecdotal but AFAIK the perceived wisdom tells us that the US consumer are more focused on up front costs rather than TCO.

As I have been saying for the last few years, the CAR EV will emerge and take over from ICE's, but it will be produced by the major Auto makers, not small underfunded independents.

I really hope you and I (and others too!) will still be in some form of message board correspondence so that we can see who's right. We both seem to agree that the EV will emerge and become mainstream. However, I think it will be a new player not an existing automaker. Yes, they will need to be "well funded" and "well connected". But not as well funded as one might think - thanks to that good old friend or foe called "globalization".

No doubt it might be blurred when we look back and decide what the turning point was - perhaps we'll both say "see, we were right!". I hope one of us IS right. Long live the EV!!!

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

project6
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 4 months ago
Joined: Friday, July 17, 2009 - 15:11
Points: 2
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

to add my very little bits to this interesting discussion:
1. bankruptcy does not meen the end of a company - it´s the chance to restructure - which is necessary for the us dept.!
2. vectrix is one of a kind - the first serious 2wheeled ev on the market, the first one recognized this way by the press and by customes all over the world. kinda 2wheeled tesla in some ways...
3. vx usa will find a solution for the current problems since the brand is too strong to be let alone. i know one of the bigger investors and they are negotiating several options. vectrix will survive. for sure.
4. vectrix had some quality problems and found solutions for most of them. is speak from experience. some people made wrong decisions while that happened but the main reason for a potential bankruptcy is the global crisis and bad communication politics. by the way: it would have been a wonder if vectrix were without any problems, esp. in these times. they are pioneers, dedicated to learn by trial and error sometimes. it´s just error status - currently... :-)
5. i visited the plant in poland 10 days ago. poland is restructuring and delivers spares and bikes. no problem there. so tendency: positive.
6. all but the uk dept. are independent from the us and keep going on with daily work since they believe in the brand. as i do too!

let´s wait what will come next. i cannot image the world seeing vectrix die without doing something. vectrix is not dead by now.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

to add my very little bits to this interesting discussion:
1. bankruptcy does not meen the end of a company - it´s the chance to restructure - which is necessary for the us dept.!

There are two types of bankruptcy filing Chapter 11 is to allow for restructuring (that's what you're referring to). Chapter 7 is terminal. News reports are saying that Vectrix is planning to file for Chapter 7 in 30 days if it can't find an investor. In those same reports the CEO is expecting they won't find an investor.

Unless the CEO is playing some high risk version of chicken to shake off pesky creditors I'm inclined to go with the CEO's expectations...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

AndY1
AndY1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 5 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 04:29
Points: 1071
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

I wish your words would come true.

Vectrix should have, at least, let their website alive, so that new customers and existing would be able to find a dealer near them. If we had any warning, we could dump their data before they went down, so we could put up an alternate site.
Their website being down will turn away any new customer.

I also have a feeling based on information I got, that even though US Vectrix is going down, that dealerships and importers are still surviving.

reikiman
reikiman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 17:52
Points: 8447
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings
to add my very little bits to this interesting discussion:
1. bankruptcy does not meen the end of a company - it´s the chance to restructure - which is necessary for the us dept.!

There are two types of bankruptcy filing Chapter 11 is to allow for restructuring (that's what you're referring to). Chapter 7 is terminal. News reports are saying that Vectrix is planning to file for Chapter 7 in 30 days if it can't find an investor. In those same reports the CEO is expecting they won't find an investor.

Unless the CEO is playing some high risk version of chicken to shake off pesky creditors I'm inclined to go with the CEO's expectations...

This is very true.. bankruptcy doesn't have to mean death. Just witness Gover..er..General Motors.

That said, I've spent a long time today reading Vectrix's financial filings. Wow, they have been in trouble for a long time. Astronomical CoGS meaning they were losing a ton of money on each bike sold. They first mentioned financing problems in a Jan 2009 filing in which it's disclosed they had at that time $3 mil in cash (non restricted cash that is) and were burning through cash at a fast rate. They predicted at that time if they didn't find more funding that by March they'd be in deep doo-doo and sure enough in March they made a couple announcements of restructuring efforts and at the end of March their stock was delisted as we noted here on another thread.

They are going to have to go through some massive changes to survive.

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra To

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

It's baffling how the disappearance of a website caused this flurry!

More posts in two days than in entire weeks before.

The demise of Vectrix Corp was clearly visible for more than a year, people just decided to look away and dream on.

I did not want to harp on about it, because it would have looked like I was trying to get back at Vectrix for canceling my warranty.

But I did mention it here and there and it was obvious to anyone opening their eyes to it.

Have a read of these Vectrix Corporation- preliminary Results from January, 2008:
http://www.hemscott.com/news/rna/detached.do?id=57266947158846


In May 2007, the Company raised approximately US$68.3 million (£33.7 million),
net of offering costs in the placing (at price of £0.52 per share) of its common
shares on AIM. The proceeds were used to provide capital to fund the Company's
vehicle production in Poland, sales and marketing activities in selected world
markets (including development of dealer network) and further product research
and development.

Based on our plan to reduce costs and improve asset turnover, management
believes that the Company's cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments at
30 September 2007 will be sufficient to meet its anticipated cash requirements
for operating and working capital purposes for at least 12 months.

Some very simple maths, combined with the mounting evidence of the unreliability of the VX1 causing enormous costs for honoring the warranties, made it crystal clear since then that the end is near.

Every company statement which I have seen published after that continued the exact same trajectory to bankruptcy! Of course, always wrapped in nice, disguising words, but the maths were always clear.

The market clearly understood it:

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marcopolo
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:33
Points: 837
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Yes, it's true that commercial law, in most western countries, permits basically profitable companies, with too much accumulated debt to restructure. The company can say to creditors, "look we are selling our product at a profit, but are being killed by an accumulated debt load. If we can come to some arrangement that will isolate the debt problem, we can pay our day to day running costs from operating profit, and seek new capital without the new lenders/financiers having to pay for old mistakes". This is not the case with Vectrix! Vectrix has NEVER sold its product at a profit! Worse still, it is obvious that Vectrix could not do so in the forseeable future. Generally, US law is more generous to corporate executives than the UK and Commonwealth countries. The British legal system is very strict and onerous relating to trading while insolvent.It is probably for this reason that Vectrix Directors planned such a complex corporate structure .

Mik, your analysis is very insightful, including your estimate that the Vectrix performed better in UK, both as a product and service. Vectrix was a far more suitable product for the congested, cold climate cites of the UK, already experienced in scooter style commuter transport.In addition, prior to Mr Boyle, the UK operation was run by some very experienced dealer/service employees. Mistakes were made in the UK, but nothing that couldn't be rectified. The UK operations chief was a highly talented and experienced operator, and was restructuring Vectrix to embrace practical policies, and governance. The arrival of Mr Boyle, who was originally hired as a cost cutting CEO, saw the departure of conservative Alex Bamberg and Vectrix went on a wild ride of extravagant expansion and mis-management.

Belrose, I agree it is very frustrating not to receive contact from the service department of any product! In the case of Australia, I don't know for sure, but I would strongly suspect that you suspect Vectrix Australia was for the best part of a year, restrained any comment by the litigation from Vectrix US, which was designed to silence such criticism.

JDH, In rely to those who look to China as a saviour for Vectrix, I doubt that any Chinese company is even vaguely interested in Vectrix. As to why we bought 17 bikes, We thought that these would not only make excellent commuter staff vehicles, but we also experimented with suppling our resort clients with the bikes as curtesy transport and hire vehicles. In this role, the Vectrix was very successful! Had Vectrix been better managed, despite the quality problems, we would have certainly purchased more.In fact I am really hopeful that a Japanese or Korean maker would pick up the gauntlet, as we would be the first to buy. Yes, the lexus is not a cheap car and that really was my point, it is easier to sell "feel good" even at a 25% premium, to people with that sort of money.Even the Prius is expensive in comparison to the Corolla.

As for the true believers that Vectrix will rise like a Phoenix if we all pray hard enough, what can I say? Except you are all right!!!! I Believe!! Hey, by the way I have a little swampland in the everglades,I can let you in on the ground floor! It will go nicely, Jim, with those Brooklyn Bridge shares I sold you last year!What's that? Oh yeah I just might have a few shares in that old silver mine, just as long as you don't tell anyone! Mind the tail, and make the cheque to me, yep just put C ASH, good old Charlie Ash, Bernie Madoffs mate.

I hate to disillusion the faithful but, um, if Vectrix is bankrupt, exactly who will all those importers and dealers receive supply of new Bikes from? Not Poland, Poland can only sell down existing stock and supply spare parts, the IP is owned by Vcorp and must be sold as part of the orderly disposal of assets. The UK company doesn't actually manufacture, so once the current stocks are gone,who will they buy from? Actually UK will also cease trading within a month. Get over it, look to the future, support guy's like JDH, at least they have the engineering knowlege to produce a product they can maintain.

marcopolo

Skarrin
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 4 months ago
Joined: Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:44
Points: 13
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

According to an article on a German EV site, Vectrix Germany and Vectrix Poland are NOT affected by the bankruptcy of Vectrix USA and "will continue to deliver vehicles and parts":
http://www.wattgehtab.com/index.php/content/view/2505/25/ (in German, translate via Google or Babelfish)

Their was a similar case some years ago when the German importer of the Twike bought brand and assets from the bankrupt swiss mother company, and they managed to not only continue production but also made improvements, developed better (lithium) batteries etc.
Maybe a good sign for Vectrix, at least in Europe?

I attended a preliminary Vectrix dealers meeting at the EVS 2006 in Monaco and could only shake my head about the completely overblown and unrealistic marketing plans presented there.
IMHO the Vectrix was (or is?) a good product hampered by a sales/marketing staff clueless about how to open a market for this kind of EV.
Why on earth did they spend money on developing a "superbike" and fool cell crap, instead of focusing on improving their current, existing product?!

Regards, Skarrin
(offline until August, 1)

toolbox
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 4 months ago
Joined: Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 02:19
Points: 4
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

HISTORY? PRESENT? THE FUTURE? for many,timing has determined what has been written so far. Owners,concerns and comments, so very easy to pick out,those with personal,and deep rooted conflict,have done so little to disguise their motives, the blatant disregard for so many who are invested in the Vectrix story is staggering!RED MIST is powerfull,crash and burn all too common! Blame,and gloom,make regular reading,its quite an art to put up on the net! So many hollow comments that lead to nothing constructive!
Some FACTS: THE PRODUCTS, are innovative "still regarded by many as the best out there" the ever GROWING family of Dealers,Importers continue to vote with Cash, Heart & Sole to ensure customers accross Europe can access the Vectrix Brand.
Every day they read more gloom and more blatant rhetoric the only point of which is to further weaken the brand,and or accelerate its demise.
The company is not Dead! the determination that has given the Brand,the following from the "professionals" who are determined to see it rise and grow in markets all over Europe are extreemly resourcefull people. Would the bike sell in China? should it be made in Korea? is it too expensive? Is the Battery technology falling behind?
IS ANY OF THIS ACTUALLY RELEVANT TODAY?
Over 100 resellers accross EUROPE HAVE RAPIDLY INCREASING SALES,CUSTOMERS INCREASINGLY KEEN TO FEED BACK THEIR THRILL WITH THE BIKE,some facts being fed back each day! Fleet & Public sector sales are seeing the bikes ridden in ever increasing numbers in many countries.For sure the current financial uncertainty frustrates service levels and potentially errodes confidence for Customer and Dealers likewise!
Are there parties who recognise the continuing potential? Are there characters who at this time,dig deep to bring a positive outcome to Vectrix,simply because its the right thing to do,and is a logical extension of their comitment on the journey so far,will they succeed? Do they know the hearts and minds of the true Vectrix fans? Can they come together and quickly strengthen the Floor of Vectrix? I invite those reading to just consider for a moment the type of people who have been successfull in their business lives,to be in a position to make an investment in vectrix so far? Just A biggoted fool with a less than honest agenda would write off those who are determined the Vectrix story will go on.

toolbox

mikemitbike
mikemitbike's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 5 months ago
Joined: Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 13:07
Points: 310
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Hi toolbox, nice written.

BUT it´s a sad fact that my dealer is unable to repair my bike since Nov 2008! There is no reason now which interests me for that fact.
I purchased the bike and gave the money in time. I did my part, my dealer and general Importer of Austria did not. He picked up the bike
in April, that means 5 months after telling him a major failure wich could have affected the battery. I wrote several mails made several
phonecalls and they needed 5 months to pick it up. They needed nearly two months to check it (only positive they gave me a bike during
this time) They did not replace the battery and now like in November i have a battery reaching 40°C at a charge level of 50% and a range
between 5 and 10 km before the battery reaches 40°C again after 23°C at start and/or a batteryvoltage wich drops down to 125v during this
ride. And off course the bike has time to cool down before charging and before riding, the lend bike from the dealer had better range and
no Voltage/Temperature problems at all.

I did buy the bike for daily comute to work, which can´t be done a this stage.

There are some riders facing the same problems like me...

Greetings Mike

qmprius
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 2 months ago
Joined: Thursday, April 9, 2009 - 08:00
Points: 15
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

Hi toolbox, nice written.

BUT it´s a sad fact that my dealer is unable to repair my bike since Nov 2008! There is no reason now which interests me for that fact.
I purchased the bike and gave the money in time. I did my part, my dealer and general Importer of Austria did not. He picked up the bike
in April, that means 5 months after telling him a major failure wich could have affected the battery. I wrote several mails made several
phonecalls and they needed 5 months to pick it up. They needed nearly two months to check it (only positive they gave me a bike during
this time) They did not replace the battery and now like in November i have a battery reaching 40°C at a charge level of 50% and a range
between 5 and 10 km before the battery reaches 40°C again after 23°C at start and/or a batteryvoltage wich drops down to 125v during this
ride. And off course the bike has time to cool down before charging and before riding, the lend bike from the dealer had better range and
no Voltage/Temperature problems at all.

I did buy the bike for daily comute to work, which can´t be done a this stage.

There are some riders facing the same problems like me...

Greetings Mike

I'm sorry you has this problem with your Vectrix.
My experience with my dealer (Spain) is good: I own My Vectrix from Januay of 2009. With 800 Km. My Vectrix had a problem with the charger: I`ve inmmediatley phoned Vectrix dealer (ubicated in Madrid) , and about a week after two persons repaired it at my home (in Granada at about 500 km from Madrid). They revised the battery and another components: the say me is neccesary change the planetary gear box (My vecrtix was too much noisier). About 2 month after, a new dealer begin to operate in Granada (June 2009), and this new dealer has changed the gearbox and now my Vectrix is a lot more quiet. So for now I`m happy with the Vectrix assistance), and with my Vectrix.
I hope Vectrix can survive to the currents adversities (is not easy, I known).
Regards

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

JDH, In rely to those who look to China as a saviour for Vectrix, I doubt that any Chinese company is even vaguely interested in Vectrix.

Wrong attribution - I can't imagine any Chinese company wanting to purchase Vectrix either!

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

marcopolo
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:33
Points: 837
Re: Vectrix Insolvency: Legal Proceedings

JDH, the comment was address to you, I did not mean it to be attributed to you, but rather in reply to general attitude of Chinese manufactures who will produce very different products that are acceptable in the West, because the needs, expectations and requirements of their domestic market are so very different. China is not very interested in attempting, innovative, high risk, high quality, expert oriented manufacture at this stage, they figure and quite rightly) that this is better done by Western Nations, and when the market is established, proven and profitable will then move in at the lower end with a bargain product.

I am very hopeful that a Korean Manufacturer could be interested. Korea is well placed to gain access to low price Chinese battery supply while upgrading the quality control,and adapting the Vectrix platform to fit as a niche product in their own motorcycle range and servicing logistics.

Otherwise, I am afraid that any attempt to revive Vectrix for all those passionate supporters, will be as futile as the attempt to resurrect other famous brands, like Jensen Cars etc. Tragically, even the recruitment of the skilled and shrewd Lord Jones, as Chairman of Triumph, (Norton-Villiers)will probably not be enough to save the enormous investment of John Bloods, Blood Homes Corp. In the end it will come down to whether the banks will continue to allow Blood Homes LTD to continue to sustain such losses long enough for Triumph to return to profit.

It is always sad to witness the passion for a particular brand or product that becomes defunct, by fan's who can't grasp the fact that these companies are first and foremost businesses, and are designed to return profits. They are not charities,religious organisations, or sporting teams. Passionate belief, hope, faith, or even patriotism are misplaced. The sad fact is that no matter how worthy if a product can't find enough market support it must fail. I am always surprised at the level of hopeful support for those who caused the death of the product. I was a supporter of Vectrix, not only as a customer, but as an investor. As a shareholder I have every right to analysis the demise of MY company, and examine who may or may not be responsible. Only those very naive or have no business knowledge, would think differently. Still, I should not be surprised to discover mentality among UK contributors. These would be the same, shop-Steward, socialists that created British Leyland and killed the entire UK motor industry. (along with billions of dollars of tax payers money lost).

The answer is not passionate defence of the incompetent Directors of Vectrix, but support for those more humble EV makers in less glamorous but more realistic markets, whose products are seldom recognised but are quietly proving the superiority of EV's.

marcopolo

Pages

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • tom7090
  • callinadword01
  • CYBRTRKR
  • ericaturner
  • 2008VectrixForSale

Customize This