Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

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kevin smith
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

hi mike. i agree.
i have been looking at the controller for the vectric and wonderd
if the controler used is same / simlar as used on one of my old electric scooters .
whitch was ( lepton e scooter ) it was italian ?????? with two speed modes and built in regen but it was very very efficent regen
i/e broke down and was aprox 2/ 3 miles from home and so pushed scooter in fast mode so it accted as a genarator and pushed
aprox 300 meters and and it got me home no probs it was the led asid battery type.
let me know what you think .kev

lavectrix
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

I'd put up $500. (If Mik'll provide detailed HID installation instructions...)

batteriesincluded
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Count me in for €500.

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Well, 25 responses so far. And two ex dealer/distributors offering support. At this rate we should be able to rescue Vectrix in time to celebrate it's centenary! ( although, we have yet to hear from the mysterious Chip and Dale, we could have used that wager money!)

I really am hopeful of a legal method of securing the mailing list, as direct contact based on a 'Vectrix Owners Club" sort of appeal, may deliver a better result.

I shall keep you advised of progress.

marcopolo

snail
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Count me in too!

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Unlike the strange comunication from "Vectrix UK", which seems to have been a hoax. I received a communication from Charles Mann the MD of Vectrix Australia, pledging to match whatever contribution the 80 odd Vectrix owners in Australia contribute to Vectrix rescue fund. He also informed me that he is still operating, but struggling to meet waranty claims with a lack of available spares, and a dramatic downturn in sales.

Vectrix Australia is not owned by VCorp and is an independant importer Distributor.

Well done Australia!

marcopolo

jdh2550_1
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

I received a communication from Charles Mann the MD of Vectrix Australia, pledging to match whatever contribution the 80 odd Vectrix owners in Australia contribute to Vectrix rescue fund.

Kudos to Mr. Mann!

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

Mik
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

What would be the approximate time frame for the open tender process?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

What would be the approximate time frame for the open tender process?

Ah, that's a tricky one, Mik! Vectrix Corp is a very complex corporate structure, involving at least two major jurisdictions. I would guess that the steps maybe as follows. Firstly it has to be established that no solvent entity can buy Vectrix as a going concern. Next a creditors meeting must satisfy the various courts, that an accurate sum can be determined for a discounted buyout of the business assets alone, and that delay would unquestionably reduce the value. An administrator/receiver/conservator must be appointed to preserve the assets, and ascertain if the business could continue as a going concern. Vectrix does not qualify for chapter 11 or even the British equivalent.

The next step must be to resolve all outstanding lawsuits, so that the litigators can be admitted to a creditors pool, and be accurately assessed. An appraisal of the value of the assets, stock, parts,IP, plant and fittings, Debtors etc.. must be compiled and taxed. A preference ranking must be established and agreed upon

(at this stage, any value left, is usually eaten up by the liquidators fees!)

Vectrix must then either file for bankruptcy in every jurisdiction, or be bankrupted/declared insolvent/wound up by a creditor(s) petition(s).

Once all these and other formalities are completed, (and then all the parties must agree to cooperate)) a decision has to be taken as to the best method of sale. Normally, this may just involve the best or only offer, but this may get messy, and to avoid challenges, an open tender, bit like an auction, may be considered the most transparent method of asset disposal.

Now, what I have described is only about a tenth of the process. Often the process can be held up by parties, who reasonably, or unreasonably, disagree with the way the winding up process is developing, or criminal charges may emerge and can not be isolated from the process.

So unless either a White Knight, or a well funded asset purchaser, comes forward with a offer to good to refuse,real soon, the above process could take a long time.

Currently, there are six or seven declared purchasers interested in the IP, after all it is a very cheap method of buying proven "green' technology, and qualifying for all those Government "green grant and loan" packages.

The question is, will any of the long line of litigants and creditors, against Vectrix, agree on a sum in a reasonable time?

No one knows! Until the first creditors meeting, no-one can tell who all the parties maybe.

Of course before bankruptcy, the directors could just sell the assets to to any bidder, but any attempt at such an action would certainly bring a raft of injunctions estopping the transaction.

What I have just described is certainly not a complete or even very accurate description of the process, I have tried to simplify it, just to give you an idea of the difficulty of predicting a possible time-frame.

The good news, well the longer it goes on, the cheaper the purchase price. Six months to six years!!

marcopolo

raytheham
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

I would certainly support Mik's idea of a Vectrix Owners club buying into the software/spares etc but it would need a good distribution centre outside of the US. Having got spares for other types of equipment from the US, customs and import duty can be a bit of a nightmare as well as adding considerabley to the cost. I don't know how many VX1 owners there are in the UK so I can't really suggest any where else for a depot that would be financially viable.
Anyway lets give the guys at Vectrix UK a chance to sort things out. They are actively working towards a solution from the e-mails I have had a couple of days ago.
All the best
Ray

Ray

Kappa1000
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Hey Guys! I bought a used VX-1 almost 6 monyhs ago and it has now over 10.300Kms. Runs like a charm! =)

Regarding the fund financing, :/ unfortunately I'm not able to contribute as I have no professional specialization and my salary is very low. :(

I bought my VX-1 because I believe we can make a difference on the climate change issue. Electric propulsion seems to be chaotic for the economy, but needed for life on earth sustainability!

Anyway I find Mik's idea excelent, and I hope there can be a way of achieving some solution of that sort.

Regards to all!

Mik
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

...
...

The good news, well the longer it goes on, the cheaper the purchase price. Six months to six years!!

Thank you for the explanation! That sounds really messy to me...

The likely long delay raises some new questions:

Once Vectrix Corp is officially being dissolved, and no-one can in their right mind hang on to irrational fantasies of miraculous rescue scenarios, will the distributors/dealers be legally able to service the scooters?

If dealers/distributors have been grated permission by Vectrix Corp to use the scooter diagnostics software to diagnose, repair and service the VX-1s, then where do they stand legally when Vectrix Corp is no more, and a new owner has not been determined yet?

Can the dealers/distributors charge money for the service provided, using someone elses intellectual property? Would they be personally liable for problems, defects, accidents or injuries caused by malfunctioning VX1s which they would have been servicing without the technical supervisory function and expertise of Vectrix Corp?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

avronw
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

If dealers/distributors have been grated permission by Vectrix Corp to use the scooter diagnostics software to diagnose, repair and service the VX-1s, then where do they stand legally when Vectrix Corp is no more, and a new owner has not been determined yet?

Can the dealers/distributors charge money for the service provided, using someone elses intellectual property? Would they be personally liable for problems, defects, accidents or injuries caused by malfunctioning VX1s which they would have been servicing without the technical supervisory function and expertise of Vectrix Corp?

That would usually depend upon how the software and reference material has been provided to the dealers. On one hand Vectrix may have supplied software and reference material for use by the dealer as part of their investment in that dealer, while continuing to retain ownership. On the other, the dealers may have been expected to invest by buying licensed copies of the software and reference materials to use (in a similar manner to how Microsoft does for us).

In my experience, the latter scenario is usually used, which suggests that although Vectrix owns the rights to that IP, the dealers have paid for the right to use that licensed material. Usually, unless there is some form of breach in the licesing use terms or it is date bound, they can continue to use it, but not redistribute it.

The tricky part is that the dealers will not have any support for that software, so trying to diagnose some very cryptic CAN messages will be virtually impossible, unless a software engineer is available somewhere to help interpret these.

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Avronw, I believe you are substantially correct. In fact, I would imagine that this may well be part of the legal wrangling between the dealer/distributors and the creditors.

Since basically the only really valuable remaining asset of Vectrix is the IP, the dealers may well feel cheated if they are denied or charged to service an orphan product with diminishing returns. The outcome may be determined by how idealistic,(and how valuable the IP) the IP purchaser's motives. Likewise, how willing are the dealers to continue an obsolete product. The dealers may decide to cut thier losses, opt for a Gratia payment, from the IP purchaser and move on, rather than fight a lengthy court battle for dubious result and even more dubious value.

That' why I say, when insolvency actions get messy, they are really hard to resolve quickly.

The good news is, the IP may not find a buyer, and could be purchased cheaply by MIK's Co-operative fund.

marcopolo

Mike Rae
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Count me in for up to £500 (UK) , when the idea becomes a firm solution.
Good luck

Silas
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Wow, this all sounds legally dubious, but then I'm not a lawyer. In any case, if this idea actually goes anywhere, I'm in for, say, $500US...

Silas

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Unbelievable!! After all the hooha and fanatical vitriol that was written by the supporters of Vectrix Corp, and its fantastic management. The criticism ranged from claiming that I was the devil incarnate for suggesting that Vectrix would collapse and leave owners without warranties, to the belligerent Jim Knopf and of course the late 'onetime', and his radically mad chipmunks! Oh, sorry I was forgetting the delightfully eccentric Kevin Smith.

Theories ranged from obscure conspiracies, to just plain silly denials, but daily the list of owners with unfix-able service problems grows!

As far a Vectrix goes, the information posted on this forum still happily reads more and more like a sad anorak, swap-meet for some obscure marque. I've even read one post actually suggesting that V for Voltage should be restricted to that sort of information.

Yet, this thread which contains a practical suggestion by a hugely knowledgeable Vectrix owner attracted, less than 1% support from Vectrix owners! I notice none of the fanatics, contributed anything useful??

marcopolo

Rebel
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Hi Marcopolo

I guess you were right about the statements you wrote but i am man enough to admit it.
i now take back the things i have said and it seems that the only course for them to take is bankruptcy.
what a real shame for a fantastic product ,but i hope that someone takes some of the technology and carries on developing and imporoving it.
as you may have noticed i have been absent from here for a few days,over a week in fact .
this was to see what picture emerged from all this and up til now no picture.
i hope the guys that were keen to help from Vectrix uk will continue to do so with there technical expertise privately as i feel that they have alot to offer .
you said last week that you were going to call in at the vectrix HQ in the UK when you got back from WA have you managed this yet.
this would be useful as you could possibly get 1st hand info on parts stock levels and if indeed there is actually anyone still working there.

your biggest fan JR

Just very well informed

jurba
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Hi Marcopolo

I guess you were right about the statements you wrote but i am man enough to admit it.
i now take back the things i have said and it seems that the only course for them to take is bankruptcy.
what a real shame for a fantastic product ,but i hope that someone takes some of the technology and carries on developing and imporoving it.
as you may have noticed i have been absent from here for a few days,over a week in fact .
this was to see what picture emerged from all this and up til now no picture.
i hope the guys that were keen to help from Vectrix uk will continue to do so with there technical expertise privately as i feel that they have alot to offer .
you said last week that you were going to call in at the vectrix HQ in the UK when you got back from WA have you managed this yet.
this would be useful as you could possibly get 1st hand info on parts stock levels and if indeed there is actually anyone still working there.

your biggest fan JR

All of this is a real shame, I don't know who to blame, mabye if more people had bougth this bike vec corp could have survived and sort out the infancy issues of this bike which apart from it's battery issues seems to be a good bike that has transported me without a shadow of a problem for 5 months now (10.000 km) and which still does for the moment with an amazing range for 3,7 kw
a bit of information , this morning I met a vec rider who's bike has a faulty batt pack and who is waiting for his pack back that autokoncept monaco has ordered and paid and that this dealer is still waiting for ...
this guy told me that autokoncept was trying to reach the polish plant that nos does not replies or replies very rarely ....
all of this seems to be the end , and if vectrix is not rescued by a governemental authority, or taken over by a big bike maker we will all have to sue our surving dealer in case they are not able to give us after sell support they have to .
in addition I have this morning I have learnt that the price list (which was not public of course) for a replacement pack (when it was available....) is 4000€ .. half of the bike price, so if the vectrix assets are takent over by a new maker, and if this majors maker is able to supply batt packs, who is going to bet 4000€ extra on a new batt pack with absolutly no certitude that it won't die as early as the ones that died did ? no me, for sure .
all of this is a good lesson for me : never to belive a dealer when he want's to sell you something .
when I asked how mutch was a back pack I was not really anwsered, I am not sure of the reply, mabye 2000 euros or so if I remember well (not sure) but sure I was not anwsered 4000€ otherwise I woult not habe bougth the beat ... case half of the price of the bike is not serious at all .
5 months ago I had asked my dealer is there were rumours of problems with vectrix and was anwsered no no no no .... a shame, a real shame ....anyway ....
one of the question I still have in mind is : how many scooter have really been solded, and how many batt packs have died prematurly ? of course an marcopolo says the list is growing everydays showing that that after a couple of thousands km packs are dying, but are they all gonna die prematurly or are there people having managed to get desent millages ?
anyway, the first months were for me a dream, I thougth I had really switched to an other worl of shameless and infinite transportation .... and no I am only waiting the time I will have to get my honda accord again ...
regards
jean mi

vectrixhoper

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Rebel, thank you for your kind remarks. Unfortunately I have not yet returned home to the UK as I am in the South Pacific and will travel to Taiwan and South Korea before heading home. ( I am hopeful to see what EV's are being developed in the two nations, in contrast to Japan and the PRC).

Jurba, I fear it may be a bit pointless to sue your dealer. After all, if you all sue the dealer, how long will he survive? If he is a large dealer with many other brands he may simply enjoin you in his action against Vcorp, and you will wait for years. But maybe you are luckier than most Vectrix owners, Monaco has some very strict trading laws, and maybe you can negotiate a settlement.

Good Luck.

marcopolo

jurba
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Rebel, thank you for your kind remarks. Unfortunately I have not yet returned home to the UK as I am in the South Pacific and will travel to Taiwan and South Korea before heading home. ( I am hopeful to see what EV's are being developed in the two nations, in contrast to Japan and the PRC).

Jurba, I fear it may be a bit pointless to sue your dealer. After all, if you all sue the dealer, how long will he survive? If he is a large dealer with many other brands he may simply enjoin you in his action against Vcorp, and you will wait for years. But maybe you are luckier than most Vectrix owners, Monaco has some very strict trading laws, and maybe you can negotiate a settlement.

Good Luck.

I have chosen my dealer for it's size... they have far enough money to pay for this, I won't have to sue v-corps, they will have to do it if they want, the legal point is that regardless of what happends to the supplyier they have to provide support .... I am a lawyer I never sued anyone for my own needs, but this time I will in case I can't use the vec anymore ...
for the time beeing it works perfect so they have a reprieve... but sure I will sue them, they knew there was a problem with vectrix and when I asked they said no no problem ...
regards
jean mi

vectrixhoper

Jonathanm
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Hello All,
Count me in for Miks idea. Being also Monaco based I was not aware that the problems have finally filtered down to here. I purchased my machine (Directly through Vectrix UK) before Autoconcept took over the dealership after the debacle with Pole Postion. My machine now also is fautless but only after a new controller, batteries and charger early on. (excellent service from Doug of Vectrix UK and also Franck from Autoconcept)

I just had someone stop me on the Prominade des Anglais yesterday and I sent him to Autoconcept because he fell in love with the bike. I don't know what he will find when he gets there?

Jonathan

michaelt
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Yes, like Jonathonm count me in on Mik's proposition (I mean financially if it can be organised. I am one of 3 Vectrix owners in NZ and am feeling a bit at the end of the world in all of this. So stumbling on this forum a week or so ago has been very helpful and interesting. And like Jonathonm only a few hours ago i was asked where someone could get a Vectrix! does anyone know if the bankrutcy proceedings have been filed?
Cheers

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Yes, like Jonathonm count me in on Mik's proposition (I mean financially if it can be organised. I am one of 3 Vectrix owners in NZ and am feeling a bit at the end of the world in all of this. So stumbling on this forum a week or so ago has been very helpful and interesting. And like Jonathonm only a few hours ago i was asked where someone could get a Vectrix! does anyone know if the bankrutcy proceedings have been filed?
Cheers

Great to hear from NZ! I have just visited NZ, amazingly beautiful country!

The best information is that Vectrix will apply to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the US within 7 days. This may be granted if Vcorp can find an asset buyer better than the current offers which are rumoured to be around $2 million. This amount would have to be ratified by the creditors. But, who knows? They might agree after all 2 cents in the dollar may be better than nothing. What the succesful purchaser would then do with the assets is anyones guess.

I am informed that NZ is part of Vectrix Australia, who I believe are still in business.

marcopolo

michaelt
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Great to hear from NZ! I have just visited NZ, amazingly beautiful country!

The best information is that Vectrix will apply to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the US within 7 days. This may be granted if Vcorp can find an asset buyer better than the current offers which are rumoured to be around $2 million. This amount would have to be ratified by the creditors. But, who knows? They might agree after all 2 cents in the dollar may be better than nothing. What the succesful purchaser would then do with the assets is anyones guess.

I am informed that NZ is part of Vectrix Australia, who I believe are still in business. [/quote]

Sorry I missed you, I could have demonstrated that NZ wines are at least the equal of Margaret River's. NZ sort of part of Vectrix Australia in that the bikes and parts etc. are sourced from there but technical support has been out of the UK who I have been in correspondence with. If you are correct on the UK thread that they got their notice on Fri that is a shame, because all the legal liabilities aside for the moment they have been very helpful. ( I, like a lot of other owners I am discovering, am suffering a few problems like decidedly bad range, have done 1500 k's so far and never more than 40k a charge and now down to 32k - 20 miles for the Americans).

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Sorry I missed you, I could have demonstrated that NZ wines are at least the equal of Margaret River's. NZ sort of part of Vectrix Australia in that the bikes and parts etc. are sourced from there but technical support has been out of the UK who I have been in correspondence with. If you are correct on the UK thread that they got their notice on Fri that is a shame, because all the legal liabilities aside for the moment they have been very helpful. ( I, like a lot of other owners I am discovering, am suffering a few problems like decidedly bad range, have done 1500 k's so far and never more than 40k a charge and now down to 32k - 20 miles for the Americans).

You bet, some of those South Island Pinot's are fabulous. In fact the whole country is a wonderland!

Economically, NZ is less wealthy than NZ, but at the the risk of upsetting all my Aussie mates, seems to be far more environmentally conscious!! I am currently in the Cook Islands, and emailed Charles Mann of Vectrix Australia, who seems to be a pretty dedicated EV guy. He says that you should contact him for servicing needs, although he has difficulties with Vcorp supply of parts. He was also very angry at the idea that you could receive supply directly from UK a Vcorp subsidiary, when he can not receive parts for his Australian customers!

With luck these squabbles will resolve themselves in chapter 11!

marcopolo

michaelt
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Whooa there. I have not received any parts or supply from the UK. My dealer, who I have been working with to try and sort out my range issues sources his parts and info from Australia. However since he only took on the dealership late last year he is on a reasonably steep learning curve, so earlier this year I contacted the Americans to see if they could help. They passed me on to UK Service people who advised they would be looking after New Zealand. As I previously stated they have been very helpful in providing advice to myself and the dealer. As you say hopefully these squabbles will be resolved. I just want to get my bike hitting a 50 mile range!

Also regarding the UK I received an email from them this morning stating "..... that we are still here and still working and being paid, also that we are not on notice."

Hope you are enjoying the South Sea Sunshine.

Mik
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

I, like a lot of other owners I am discovering, am suffering a few problems like decidedly bad range, have done 1500 k's so far and never more than 40k a charge and now down to 32k - 20 miles for the Americans).

Without wanting to go off topic here: You may want to read this: http://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/7145#new
I think your battery is on the way out unless you drastically limit the range you ask of it to well below what it can provide. But that is better discussed somewhere else or this thread will get cluttered.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marcopolo
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Mik,

Well, at least 32 owners thought that your concept was fantastic. Really a bit disapointing, considering the level of fanatasism these pages have engendered. I wonder what does this really signify?.

Less than 1% of owners, (well if you don't count VA's offer to match)!

marcopolo

jdh2550_1
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Re: Proposition for a Vectrix Rescue Fund

Mik,

Well, at least 32 owners thought that your concept was fantastic. Really a bit disapointing, considering the level of fanatasism these pages have engendered. I wonder what does this really signify?.

Less than 1% of owners, (well if you don't count VA's offer to match)!

But how many VX owners read this forum? 5% of owners reading (150 ish) would seem a reasonable "wild ass guess" (how's that for an oxymoron?). 32 out of 150 is over 20%.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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