Got my Vectrix today!

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Actually it looks like both Mik and John have tested the Vectrix and answered my question already, the posts which I hadn't seen before.

The aceleration rates quoted from Vectrix that I have seen are:
0-30 mph in 3.1 Seconds
0-50 mph in 6.8 Seconds
0-60 mph in 8.2 Second

Surprisingly both Mik and John got almost identical rates of:
0-30 mph in 5 Seconds
0-50 mph in 9.5 Seconds
0-60 mph in ~16 Seconds judging from the Mik's graph

Now I don't doubt that Vectrix got these numbers, but it was obviously under ideal conditions and probably with a light 100 lb rider or so.
The real world numbers are 40% or so worse than the factory times, so much so that it makes you wonder if the factory times are even really even repeatable in a real test scenario.
John, as far as I could see you didn't mention the weight of your rider during your tests.
Mik, you are close to my weight, but I would say that we are both far off from what a manufacturer would do a published acceleration test with.
Evidently, Mik has previously asked for other people to do testing without any takers. Maybe a light rider could just post a video of the speedometer and let Mik or someone do the actual calculations.

I'm 155lbs, 5'7" when I stand up straight, blond hair, blue eyes, Libra. My favorite color is blue. ;-)

Anyway, the acceleration rate is only a small part of the one's actual considerations with these bikes in the first place. Because of the battery drain issues it seems most riders rarely go around flooring a Vectrix anyway. Acceleration or lack of it didn't sink Vectrix and it didn't save it either. The same will go for John's products. The fact that few people have actually clocked their acceleration also shows how little the actual numbers matter. Range and other issues seem to be much more important to the success of these vehicles than acceleration rates.

I agree with you 100%. However, one has to be able to market the bikes - and as Vectrix shows good acceleration numbers are a powerful advertising bullet point. I think you're a little too kind to Vectrix - there's no way they should have been using those numbers. That's one of the things that frustrates me - when I talk to the bigger sites they don't want to know about CuMoCo because there's not enough independent stories out there. Yet, practically all the stories about Vectrix come from Vectrix published press releases and marketing material. You can't find a single independent review in mainstream media - but you can find the erroneous performance figures. So, how exactly is "independent" coverage helpful when it just parrots the press releases? Sigh. I know I just have to be patient - one day Jay Leno will have a C130 sitting next to his VX-1.

That's part of the reason I wrote that I really wasn't looking for side by side test numbers, etc. As far as the testing bias I mentioned, that's because it really is impossible for anyone to impartially rate their own product against another similar one.

For subjective tests yes. For quantitative tests you can compare. Yes, you can call into question the testing methodology and "publication bias" - but those concerns can be addressed.

Anyway - I don't really intend to write my own comparison review. I do plan on testing the VX1 performance under the same conditions that I will test the C130 performance. Whether I post those performance numbers side-by-side or in different threads is immaterial.

And after all as for comparisons, you really are comparing a different class of products because I believe the Vectrix was always priced significantly higher than John's product. So I think it is wrong to expect his bikes to match a Vectrix on acceleration performance. I mean if John's product can come anywhere close, for less money he might have a successful product.

Don't tell Mik - but as far as the overall package of performance and reliability we've got a better bike than the VX-1 for less money. In terms of subjective values as I've ALWAYS said - I believe the VX-1 is a Cadillac and the C130 is a Ford. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Now I've done it! That's almost an ad for a C130 and it's in the Vectrix section - boy am I in trouble now!

But I do want to extend my Kudos again to John that he actually publicly admitted that he bought one. That took guts, but I think it was a very smart thing to do considering the current Vectrix prices.

Guts? Nah. Stupidity? Probably...

;-)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

John,

congrats on your purchase.
I hope it'll bring you good times, and us more knowledge.

Go and test it, compare it if you will, but don't expect the V to beat any ICE-records.

Thanks turok. I agree with you - beating ICE performance is not what the VX is about. I'll leave that to the Mission Motors brigade with their $30K motorcycle. However, I do want to know how the VX-1 performs in "real world" conditions - as a benchmark if nothing else. IMO, with better batteries and better management (of the organization and of the batteries!) the VX-1 should have been able to sell thousands and maintain its "Cadillac" status. It really is a shame they went bust (or are going bust - or whatever they're actually doing right now!).

I'm glad I get to own a piece of history. Kudos to the smart folks at Vectrix - they almost got it right...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

marcopolo
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!
After all, the demise of Vectrix is not down to John ...

Marco, I think it has been firmly established that the demise of Vectrix is your fault. Are you finally admitting the truth? :D

Ok,Ok, ya got me !! A fair cop guv!!I did it ! It was me, ha ha ha .........

marcopolo

knabo
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

LOL John, you may be little but you are funny.

Luther Burrell, Mesa, Arizona, USA
Rides: ZuumCraft from zuumcraft.com
Previous Rides: Blue Vectrix Maxi scooter

Mik
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

The fact that few people have actually clocked their acceleration also shows how little the actual numbers matter. Range and other issues seem to be much more important to the success of these vehicles than acceleration rates.

I agree with you 100%.

I disagree with this. For me, acceleration is the most important performance figure of a motorbike. You can never really use the top speed on public roads, anyway.
Or maybe it is second to braking and maneuverability. But a very close second. They go together like two hands.
It's all about staying alive in traffic!

Don't tell Mik - but as far as the overall package of performance and reliability we've got a better bike than the VX-1 for less money. In terms of subjective values as I've ALWAYS said - I believe the VX-1 is a Cadillac and the C130 is a Ford. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Now I've done it! That's almost an ad for a C130 and it's in the Vectrix section - boy am I in trouble now!

You just cannot help yourself, can you? ;-)

Unfortunately for yourself, part of what you say is incorrect. The VX-1 is in fact dirt cheap in North America right now, so cheap you cannot possibly hope to compete against them!
VX-1's are selling for less than US$3500.- on ebay right now, and that might well continue for longer than you can financially stay afloat. You are right with your assessment that advertising in Vectrix threads reaches the right consumers, but you might be wrong about what they (at least in the USA) will actually buy!

At the prices that the VX-1 is selling in the USA right now, I would buy at least one more!

Then, if you cannot sell bikes, what about the warranty for those early adopters who bought of you?

Of course, they could replace parts with more commonly available replacements than for a VX-1, - or could they? If they have the skill.... It's not rocket science, and importing stuff from china is childs play....they'll sell you thousands of hub motors if you ask them, I'm sure. But just one? And have I not heard a few times that they keep changing designs all the time, and that the specifications change without notice?

But of course, this would be easily sorted out, because you will sell hundreds or thousands of bikes straight away, so there will be an enthusiastic and knowledgeable crowd on VisforVoltage helping each other to fix the few glitches, arrange group buys etc!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

DaveAK
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I disagree with this. For me, acceleration is the most important performance figure of a motorbike. You can never really use the top speed on public roads, anyway.
Or maybe it is second to braking and maneuverability. But a very close second. They go together like two hands.
It's all about staying alive in traffic!

But doesn't that all depend on the kind of traffic you're going to be driving in? Personally 0-40mph time is probably a lot more important to me than your 0-60mph stat you always want to see. And even then I wouldn't take a 10sec bike over a 15sec bike just because it accelerates quicker. There's a lot more I'm interested in. Such as controlled deceleration stats. :D

At the end of the day any performance figure that's published and/or verified is simply a tool for a general comparison.

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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Unfortunately for yourself, part of what you say is incorrect. The VX-1 is in fact dirt cheap in North America right now, so cheap you cannot possibly hope to compete against them!
VX-1's are selling for less than US$3500.- on ebay right now, and that might well continue for longer than you can financially stay afloat.

Sounds like a case of publication bias to me - the last five VX-1 bikes sold on ebay went for $4100, $5000, $3602, $3250 & $4494. So, only 1 in 5 bikes sold for less than $3500. That's an 80% error in your statement. It looks like you cherry picked your data. Tsk, tsk!

You are right with your assessment that advertising in Vectrix threads reaches the right consumers, but you might be wrong about what they (at least in the USA) will actually buy!

Thanks for the in depth market research analysis. Rest assured we're not relying solely on this forum, nor did I get out of bed one day and say "I'm gonna make me an EV company". I'm not QUITE that wet behind the ears (though there is always more to learn - and there's never a dull moment learning it!)

Then, if you cannot sell bikes, what about the warranty for those early adopters who bought of you?

Of course, they could replace parts with more commonly available replacements than for a VX-1, - or could they? If they have the skill.... It's not rocket science, and importing stuff from china is childs play....they'll sell you thousands of hub motors if you ask them, I'm sure. But just one? And have I not heard a few times that they keep changing designs all the time, and that the specifications change without notice?

Woah there!

Up above you claim I should be prepared for detailed responses. Perhaps you'd care to research this issue with a little more rigor before frightening folks. You CAN buy replacement parts from alternative vendors who sell to retail customers (i.e. in quantity one) - that's true for ALL mechanical and electrical aspects of the bike except the BCU, the swing arm and the battery box. The bike is a loosely coupled system so can actually operate without the BCU (minus some features of course). By the time you need a new battery box or swing arm then you'd probably be better off with a new bike.

But of course, this would be easily sorted out, because you will sell hundreds or thousands of bikes straight away, so there will be an enthusiastic and knowledgeable crowd on VisforVoltage helping each other to fix the few glitches, arrange group buys etc!

You've not been paying much attention have you? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's a marathon not a sprint. A MAJOR part of our MULTI-YEAR plan is to roll out low numbers and slowly increase sales. We don't need to "sell hundreds or thousands of bikes straight away". That would be a dumb assumption to make. Care to guess who made that dumb assumption and is now paying for it? Nor do we expect a hockey-stick growth chart (I read on another start up page how they expected to sell ten or fifteen thousand within two to three years - what are those folks smoking?).

Feel free to spar away - but please research with a little more depth before spreading "scare" tactics.

To your main point: yes, you can buy an unsupported VX-1 for less than a C120e (MSRP $5499) and a lot less than a C130 (MSRP $7499). But here's the rub - if lots of folks decide to buy VX-1's then the price will soon go back up. Simple supply and demand economics will come into play. I'm sure we might "lose" some sales to folks who buy VX-1's - that's not something we've planned for per se - except for the fact that we have fairly conservative sales goals.

This is one of your weaker posts Mik - you're slipping...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

myocardia
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Mik, jealousy isn't a very becoming emotion, especially on someone with your talent and apparent intellect.

marcopolo
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Unfortunately for yourself, part of what you say is incorrect. The VX-1 is in fact dirt cheap in North America right now, so cheap you cannot possibly hope to compete against them!
VX-1's are selling for less than US$3500.- on ebay right now, and that might well continue for longer than you can financially stay afloat. You are right with your assessment that advertising in Vectrix threads reaches the right consumers, but you might be wrong about what they (at least in the USA) will actually buy!

Ah, Mik, correct me if my logic is faulty, but with no more Vectrix in production, the number of V1's must be finite, and therefore sales on ebay must dry up rapidly. The market for those that are available for sale will be taken up largely by existing vectrix owners, as new buyers must hesitate at the lack of warranty and factory support. So why should John worry about a dying Vectrix as competition?

Far more harmful, is that the death of Vectrix may drive away potential first time EV buyers altogether!

marcopolo

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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Far more harmful, is that the death of Vectrix may drive away potential first time EV buyers altogether!

Not to mention investors... Sigh.

And to those who think I'm taking advantage of the demise of Vectrix (not marcopolo) - you may want to check my history. I've consistently said that I hope Vectrix survive. I wish any reasonably good EV venture, especially those with good intentions and the will to seek incremental improvement the best of success. Realistic competitors make for a vibrant market and better products - which ultimately leads to more sales.

So if Bill Gates (or someone less rich than him but significantly richer than me) wants to save Vectrix at the 11th hour I wish them the best of luck!

Keep on keeping on! We'll get there...

(I seem to be full of cliches this evening!)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

Mik
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

This obviously needs some clarification....

And I will not re-read the lot, or research and formulate oh-so carefully, but I'll try to give you all a clearer picture of where I am coming from:

Point 1): There are many EV vendors and hopefuls. There have been and there still are many that announce vaporware that never actually gets sold. Many exaggerate the specs of their products wildly (Big fat stinking lies!).

Point 2): The result of point one is that it does a disservice to EV's and the overall chances of humanities survival on planet earth.

Point 3): The only potent antidote to this ill are a hand full of internet sites like VisforVoltage, Endless Sphere, AEVA forum, etc, in which the hype can be sorted from reality.

Point 4): If dealers are permitted to post advertisements wherever and whenever they like in these forums, then the only antidote we have against the hype is being destroyed in quick order.

Point 5): You cannot have 2 sets of rules. Same rules for everyone, or no rules at all. Even though JDH2550_1 is a well respected member of VisforVoltage, for good reasons, and probably particularly because of this, he needs to stick to the rules. Otherwise we cannot tell anyone else to stop muddying the waters with advertising throughout all of the forum.

.
.
Regarding jealousy: I shall jealously defend the integrity of the forum content against destruction by sales talk.

.

Regarding "spreading scare tactics": There is no spreading at all. It's targeted sharply.

.

Regarding slipping, weak post: No slip there, no weakness either. Just the KISS principle. I don't need to think for too long, and reference, and back up, and cross reference, because I am not the one trying to sell something out of the "Sale section".
The onus of proof is on you, and you are therefore putting yourself in a very difficult to defend position. Don't be surprised if increasingly curly balls come flying your way from jealous defenders of independent EV testing and reporting!

.

And finally, there is no need for you to put yourself in this position. You and CUMOCO will actually be much better off by not making a nuisance of yourself by plugging the model names and price of your products all over VisforVoltage whenever you can. Do you really need two links to your website in your footer, which is longer than many entire posts? That alone increases bandwidth requirements and download time for people with slow internet connections, and is exclusively for your benefit.
You have problems getting exposure in other places, as evident by several of your recent posts on V. You mentioned Wikipedia and other sites, and your problems of getting exposure there.
So don't blow it for yourself on VisforVoltage, because you will have excellent marketing exposure for little money if you tread gently and don't overdo it!
If your bikes are as good as you say they will be, then the reports by owners will provide you with more free and effective advertising than you could achieve otherwise, without the nuisance factor.
You will probably not be able to keep up with demand once good owner reports start coming in.
.
I note that you are beginning to realize how much work has gone into the Vectrix reports on V, so you will hopefully understand this jealous defense of it.

You are of course more than welcome to use and improve the Collaborative Handbook, just try to put in an honest effort to keep the ads out!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

jdh2550_1
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

OK I had this whole long response done - but let's boil it down to this:

Folks other than Mik who care to comment: Are you offended when I mention the C1x bikes when in context and comparing them to aspects of other bikes? Do you see all my posts as shilling for business? Does my four line signature offend you? Would a one or two line signature that still mentions my business be any better? If enough people are offended by my behavior I'll change it. However, so far I'm only aware of one person who appears to be bent out of shape over this.

Mik: I won't be bullied by a minority (especially a minority of one). I don't see my every post as a request for business. However, I do see that every post builds or detracts from my reputation as to someone folks might want to do business with. As for your arguments:
1) You entered this thread with an attempt to "beat me up" over "publication bias". Then in a later post you quote data that is clearly incorrect. If you search ebay there is only one bike in the last five sold in the US that sold for less than $3500. I was merely pointing out the irony of that.
2) My reference to "scare tactics" was the fear, uncertainty and doubt you introduced by implying that CuMoCo is likely to go bankrupt, that warranties will be worthless and that the ability to buy off-the-shelf parts is worthless because of non-existant retail channels. All of that was not very friendly (and the last point completely untrue and trivial to know but just the saying of it will cause some folks unneeded concern). If you really believe that folks shouldn't buy a CuMoCo then simply say so and say why - and expect me to counter your concerns with facts and my point of view. If you are posting this FUD to make an unfriendly environment and to dissuade me from posting in a thread I started (and you were free to ignore but chose not to) then simply say "John, please don't post". I'll probably ignore you. But don't spread FUD about my company.
3) Your line about my signature being a bandwidth hog and nothing but shameless self-promotion? (a) it's not a bandwidth hog and has far less impact than the pictures next to folks names (yes, I just added one of those myself) & (b) yes, it is self-promotion - guess what, I want to sell lots and lots of bikes. However, it also serves another purpose - it means I wear my colors on my sleeve for everyone to see. I also clearly identify exactly who I am. Those are good things.

Bottom line is I like to think of my participation in this forum as a win-win situation (hokey but true):
I win because I learn and I get a chance to promote my business.
Others win because I think on balance I'm a positive member of the community.

This string of events reminds me of a similar "going off the deep end" that occurred between me and Tracy Ingram on these forums. Sigh.

I shan't be updating the Collaborative Handbook - because my signature will continue to offend you. Instead I will make whatever contributions that I can via alternative methods. If you wish to incorporate anything I've done then feel free.

OK - that was the short version - you should have seen the long one!!!

EDIT: Hang on a second! I can't count! My signature is only three lines long (ironically so is Mik's). Oh brother...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Forget all the arguments! What I want to see is a truthful report, obtained by using similar weight and shape riders, simutaneously rideing the Vectrix and whatever other bike you wish to compare it to. Riding test should include a race to top speeds, a braking test, and a range test, over uneven, hilly terrain as well as flat terrain.--then SWITCH riders, and do it again-be certian that all vehicles have fully charged batteries at start of each test.--THAT would give results that I, and very likely, many others will be intersted in!--Bob

Robert M. Curry

jdh2550_1
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Forget all the arguments! What I want to see is a truthful report, obtained by using similar weight and shape riders, simutaneously rideing the Vectrix and whatever other bike you wish to compare it to. Riding test should include a race to top speeds, a braking test, and a range test, over uneven, hilly terrain as well as flat terrain.--then SWITCH riders, and do it again-be certian that all vehicles have fully charged batteries at start of each test.--THAT would give results that I, and very likely, many others will be intersted in!--Bob

I'll be happy to oblige. Furthermore if anyone wants to attend such a test I'd be happy for them to take part as well.

BTW: I just ordered one of these: http://www.goprocamera.com/index.php?area=2&productid=2# (a 5MP helmet cam - this should be fun!)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

reikiman
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Um, a critical correction is in order...

Point 4): If dealers are permitted to post advertisements wherever and whenever they like in these forums, then the only antidote we have against the hype is being destroyed in quick order.

In the policies are requirements that advertising has to be in the marketplace section of the forum.

Dealing with noncompliance with that policy is the most common thing the moderators and I do on the site. Generally it's a new dealer who joins up and wants to mention their product at every opportunity. Sometimes its outright spammers, and some of them are really hard to detect. We have several tools depending on the circumstance.

I'd like to know if people think John has been out of line. Obviously we've seen him make postings for a long time and to my eye he's been pretty careful about the line between pushing a product and discussing a product in context. But maybe we don't understand where the line really should be and maybe John has been going too far.

I think all of us would like to know better where that line should be.

BTW The point of the policy is to maintain the majority of the forum as an open ground for equally discussing all products from all vendors.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I'd like to know if people think John has been out of line. Obviously we've seen him make postings for a long time and to my eye he's been pretty careful about the line between pushing a product and discussing a product in context. But maybe we don't understand where the line really should be and maybe John has been going too far.

I think all of us would like to know better where that line should be.

Thanks David - I'll happily abide by the will of the majority. Perhaps you can also clarify guidelines for signatures while you're at it?

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

DaveAK
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I'd like to point out two things about this thread.

1. The OP only mentioned that John had received his VX-1, that he has mentioned on other threads. It was started by John, and any mention of CuMoCo's bikes aren't in anyway hijacking someone else's thread.

2. The request for comparison was made by another member, in this case by me, and then echoed and commented on by other members. As such even though this is a thread about a VX-1, in the Vectrix forum there is apparent interest for information, both about John's view of his VX-1, and a comparison to his new range of bikes.

I understand the need for policies regarding vendors/manufacturers and their posts, but personally I think you'd be hard pressed to see this as much more than back-and-forth between John and Mik. At the end of the day it's up to the modeartors to make a determination and if they feel it necessary to move it to a new forum. But even if moved to say the product announcements section, the conversation is still going to be much the same with regard to John's honesty/bias/shilling.

DaveAK
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Thanks David - I'll happily abide by the will of the majority. Perhaps you can also clarify guidelines for signatures while you're at it?

Well, he'll have to be careful not to shrink signatures any smaller than his own! :D

myocardia
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I'd like to know if people think John has been out of line. Obviously we've seen him make postings for a long time and to my eye he's been pretty careful about the line between pushing a product and discussing a product in context. But maybe we don't understand where the line really should be and maybe John has been going too far.

I personally don't think John was out of line in any way whatsoever in this thread. It was his thread! Awhile back, 6 months or so ago, I saw a thread or two where I thought John was being overly critical of the Vectrix in Vectrix threads, but it has been quite some time since I've seen anything that could be misconstrued that way. Realize, I don't own a Vectrix, so I have don't feel the need to justify a ~$12,000 expenditure to myself or the world, like some do. I might very well feel otherwise, if justification were in order. Then again, I don't see where any of us should be having to make exceptions for other people's excuses, since justification is in fact nothing more than excuse making.

marcopolo
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I'd like to know if people think John has been out of line. Obviously we've seen him make postings for a long time and to my eye he's been pretty careful about the line between pushing a product and discussing a product in context. But maybe we don't understand where the line really should be and maybe John has been going too far.

I think all of us would like to know better where that line should be.

BTW The point of the policy is to maintain the majority of the forum as an open ground for equally discussing all products from all vendors.

In my view, I think John's posts do not fit into the category of advertising. As I understand John, his manufacturing ability seems to be little more than a dealer, trying to develop a very low volume, work-in-progress sort of product. Now,this would seem to me to be an excellent opportunity to observe a fledgling EV maker.
I can understand Mik's questioning of John's objectivity, but isn't that the point? Isn't it by debate we learn? Hmmm.... perhaps its different with some Engineers who only want to delight in the minutia of existing 'safe' facts. John and Mik, obviously have creative, curious minds and that leads to quite an exciting (if raucous) debate.

Obviously, John defends his own corner and promotes the progress of his product! But, here is the point Mik, as soon as his product hits the market place in any substantial numbers, he will be subject to the usual critique of the mass-media and real scrutiny by his competitors. In the meantime, he is quite legitimately entitled to be critical of Vectrix, and is entitled to draw comparisons with any EV, even his own. Vectrix was a Commercial Venture to Make Money, not a crusade or a idealistic effort to cure the environment's ills. Now, some people might naively see it that way, but they remind me of the soccer fans who truly believe that when they support a major club, the club,and the players actually care about them and they are taking part in a "sport", not a huge commercial enterprise.

It must be very useful for John to experience the informed/uninformed views of the forum to his product. As far as biased or partisan views go, what about all those passionate Vectrix supporters? Were all of those posts genuine? How many were the creation of Vectrix dealers, and most of all, if read one way, the mysterious VUK post, was a straight advertisement for their commercial services? Ole 'Mountain Chen's comments are far more commercial than John's, but they are simply recognised for what they are, and tolerated as a right of reply.

So far I think John's contributions are just enthusiastic commentary, not commercial advertising promotion.

After all, David and Mik, John's product, and posts concerning its virtues are very overt, and John is easily censored by his peers opinions or shrill cries of derision!

marcopolo

Mik
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Ole 'Mountain Chen's comments are far more commercial than John's, but they are simply recognised for what they are, and tolerated as a right of reply.

And Mountain Chen got a far more direct reply, first time, too:

Read the thread topic, please!

I am not talking about 48km/h mopeds here, I want a motor bike.

NOT A DEATH TRAP ON TWO TINY WHEELS!

And by repeating your uninformative ADS in an inappropriate section of the forums they do not get any better.

Add some substance instead of claims and keep ads where they belong.

This is clearly a thread about conversions, not a playground for vendors to compare Hype with Hype.

Mr. Mik
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2958-what-could-you-convert-yourself-price-vectrix#comment-15914

That should make it abundantly clear that I don't just pick on John....

Arctic fox got a serve, too: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4708-just-suggestion#comment-27764 , but for different reasons.

So, maybe it's just me then...maybe I'm some paranoid stalker who just cannot help but feel that the "evil dealers" are out to get him?

.

Here is a possible solution: I'll do a little "study" to figure out if I am deluding myself, or if my concerns are justified. VisforVoltage readers can of course check every detail of it, for I am of course not reliable.

And to rule out "Outcome Reporting Bias", which would have been a better term to use instead of Publishing Bias, I'm announcing the study intention here. If the results don't fit my expectations, then I cannot just act as if I never said I'd look into it!
................................................................................................................
.
Here is the attempt to put some science into the debate:

I have saved the "Recent Vectrix Posts List Page" just now, 2009-08-14, 1050am GMT, whilst typing this. Using this list, I will try to find the time to look back through the first dozen of these threads. I'll check the contributions of JDH2550_1 in these 12 threads for mention of CUMOCO, models, specifications, price of his scooters and other stuff that might look like advertising. If there is one or several threads among the first 12 without any posts by JDH2550_1, then I'll look at the next thread in the list etc until the dozen is full.
That is the "Control group".

The "Treatment Group" will be the contributions by JDH2550_1 over a comparable time and number of Vectrix threads after today, 0000am GMT.

The Null Hypothesis is this: There is no statistically difference between JDH2550_1 s contributions in the Vectrix threads of the control group and the treatment group, in regards to what could be seen as advertising.

Of course, this is not double blind, not even a single blind study, and a horrendous waste of time, but I might just do it!

Until I get a round toit, I might just let the subject rest and take a holiday... ;-)

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Mik
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Um, a critical correction is in order...

Point 4): If dealers are permitted to post advertisements wherever and whenever they like in these forums, then the only antidote we have against the hype is being destroyed in quick order.

In the policies are requirements that advertising has to be in the marketplace section of the forum.
...
...
...

I did not write that as clearly as I could have. It looks like you understood it differently to what I meant.

What I wanted to say was: "If dealers are permitted to post advertisements wherever and whenever they like in these forums, then the forums usefulness will be destroyed in quick order."
It was supposed to flow on from point 3.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

jdh2550_1
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Of course, this is not double blind, not even a single blind study, and a horrendous waste of time, but I might just do it!

That's your prerogative of course, however why not simply recognize that of the four people who have so far responded (DaveAK, reikiman, myocardia and marcopolo) none of them have regarded my posts as advertising? Why spend the effort to persuade them they're wrong and you're right? In your "study" how will you determine if the mention of an alternative bike was in context? For example the ICL discussion I mention how we approached the problem.

I think you were mostly joking about introducing science - the science of personal opinion is hard to determine. However, our peers who have responded seem to not see this as a problem. Believe me, if the above 4 folks had responded that I was a "nuisance" and "advertising my bikes at every opportunity" I would change my behavior immediately.

I dare say that both of us march to the beat of our own drum and like to vigorously defend our positions. However, why not listen to the voice of others as well?

However, your final suggestion is one that I also need to take heed of:

I might just let the subject rest and take a holiday... ;-)

I'm off "up North" for the weekend - without a single EV in sight!

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

rewski
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!
Of course, this is not double blind, not even a single blind study, and a horrendous waste of time, but I might just do it!

That's your prerogative of course, however why not simply recognize that of the four people who have so far responded (DaveAK, reikiman, myocardia and marcopolo) none of them have regarded my posts as advertising? Why spend the effort to persuade them they're wrong and you're right? In your "study" how will you determine if the mention of an alternative bike was in context? For example the ICL discussion I mention how we approached the problem.

I think you were mostly joking about introducing science - the science of personal opinion is hard to determine. However, our peers who have responded seem to not see this as a problem. Believe me, if the above 4 folks had responded that I was a "nuisance" and "advertising my bikes at every opportunity" I would change my behavior immediately.

I dare say that both of us march to the beat of our own drum and like to vigorously defend our positions. However, why not listen to the voice of others as well?

However, your final suggestion is one that I also need to take heed of:

I might just let the subject rest and take a holiday... ;-)

I'm off "up North" for the weekend - without a single EV in sight!

For the record, I've been on this site for a while and joined after I purchased a used '07 in June. I have to say I have never been offended by John's comments or his alleged "advertising" tactics. It is true that I have visited CUMOCO's website as a result of his postings, so indirectly he was "advertising" on this post because he got me to visit his site, but I don't think that was the only intention. I'm really looking forward to the comparisons of his bike and his new V, even if it is a biased comparison. Conducting a "study" on his posts to "prove" that he is "advertising" for his product is ridiculous. If you have that much free time on your hands volunteer somewhere to help someone in need (this is a joke, not meant to offend anyone). If I were in the midwest and near John I would surely like to participate in a comparison test of the two bikes. Just my two cents.

Adam - Denver, CO
2007 Vectrix VX-1 charged with the power of the sun = zero carbon footprint

MikeB
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Honestly, John has done some very blatant advertising, but it was a thread in the 'Product Announcement' forum, which is exactly where it should be. There was also a few times where he answered some direct questions about his product in a thread in other locations, but answering direct questions should always be allowed. I haven't seen him step out of line anywhere, and I would have mentioned it to him if I did.

But lets step back a moment here. Every single one of us has looked at a feature on a bike and thought 'gee, if I was building my own bike, I'd do it differently', and we've also thought 'gee, if I was building my own bike, I'd probably copy that feature'. We come to the V to talk about electric bikes and features of those bike, and we all form an opinion, good or bad, about the details on these bikes.

John is in a nearly unique position in that he owns bikes from multiple vendors and can do a direct comparison of how different companies handled various issues. He's also in the nearly unique position of having to make his own decision about how he really will build his own bike. Frankly, that's good information for the community to have. Even better, when some of us complain that various bikes need to have specific features like a per-cell BMS, or a larger DC-DC converter, John is able to tell us what the costs are, or the design issues are, of putting such features into a bike. That's not advertising, that's just being an informed member of the community.

The fact that John is knowledgeable and is contributing to the technical understanding of this community probably will help him sell his product, but I think that's perfectly fair.

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

2008 Silver Vec...
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I picked up my silver 2008 Vectrix just a couple of weeks ago also. I have to say that I got it for quite a steal given the current financial situation Vectrix is in right now. So far the bike could not have been any better for me. I love the acceleration, handling, and lack of engine noise/smell. These bikes are being liquidated for under 6K and anyone even considering buying an EV should snatch these up while you can! I do worry about the maintenance warranty, but I really feel that these bikes are virtually maintenance free anyway. The range of the bike limits the bike to only an urban commuter vehicle, but it is a perfect vehicle for probably 80% of the population. I am averaging around 50 miles on my full discharge cycles and do not expect it to improve much over time. Overall I am extremely pleased with my new Vectrix.

JJ

rewski
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I picked up my silver 2008 Vectrix just a couple of weeks ago also. I have to say that I got it for quite a steal given the current financial situation Vectrix is in right now. So far the bike could not have been any better for me. I love the acceleration, handling, and lack of engine noise/smell. These bikes are being liquidated for under 6K and anyone even considering buying an EV should snatch these up while you can! I do worry about the maintenance warranty, but I really feel that these bikes are virtually maintenance free anyway. The range of the bike limits the bike to only an urban commuter vehicle, but it is a perfect vehicle for probably 80% of the population. I am averaging around 50 miles on my full discharge cycles and do not expect it to improve much over time. Overall I am extremely pleased with my new Vectrix.

Welcome to the club (I just joined a few months ago as well). One word of caution for you...if you are getting 50 miles/charge you likely have the old software installed on the bike which allows the batteries to discharge to a much lower voltage. The latest software (from Oct 2008) raised the lower voltage threshold to protect the batteries. You can check if you have the Oct 08 software by hitting the kill switch and holding the left hand brake with the bike on. If the left gauge displays the voltage and battery temp then you have the most current software. If you do not, I would recommend not discharging the bike below 120 volts (the older software let it go down to around 105 volts) in order to prevent battery damage. Enjoy!

Adam - Denver, CO
2007 Vectrix VX-1 charged with the power of the sun = zero carbon footprint

2008 Silver Vec...
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Thanks for the tip. I immediately went out to my garage and checked to see if the bike has the latest software installed. I am happy to report the new software has been installed, but why would that have anything to do with the 50 mile range? Should the bike get less than 50 miles, because it seems that I could do better than that if I did not drive so fast from a full stop every time. I do not drive conservatively and it is getting 50 plus everytime ! My commute is from 25 mph to 50 plus for around 20 miles per day. Is there a chance I have a newer model battery? I know they made improvements to the battery and BMS, so I hope that I am not simply overdischarging the battery! I will check the voltage for now on after the discharge cycle. Thanks again.

JJ

rewski
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

Thanks for the tip. I immediately went out to my garage and checked to see if the bike has the latest software installed. I am happy to report the new software has been installed, but why would that have anything to do with the 50 mile range? Should the bike get less than 50 miles, because it seems that I could do better than that if I did not drive so fast from a full stop every time. I do not drive conservatively and it is getting 50 plus everytime ! My commute is from 25 mph to 50 plus for around 20 miles per day. Is there a chance I have a newer model battery? I know they made improvements to the battery and BMS, so I hope that I am not simply overdischarging the battery! I will check the voltage for now on after the discharge cycle. Thanks again.

That is great that you have the new software and even better that you are getting 50 miles with the driving you are doing! That is the most I've heard anyone getting with the new software. The Oct 2008 software basically lowered the top charge voltage and the also raised the lower limit voltage to protect the batteries, but also effectively decreasing the range available per charge. Your bike must have batteries in top shape. The best I've got with the new software is about 43 miles which is more than enough for me! I only have a six mile trip to work on roads up to 35mph. I'm going to try and run this thing throughout the winter in Denver this year...just ordered some cold weather gloves! BTW Motorcycle Superstore is having an 80% off sale right now...we got a new helmet for the wife, winter gloves, and some summer gloves for $79 shipped!

Adam - Denver, CO
2007 Vectrix VX-1 charged with the power of the sun = zero carbon footprint

Spaceangel
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Re: Got my Vectrix today!

I too got my New 2007 Vectrix VX-1 with updated software Monday. I bought it off eBay thru a Honda dealership for 5125 or something close plus a buck seventy for Shipping to Manchester NH. The trucking company allowed me to learn how to drive it for a while practicing regen and stopping. It was to be a straight shot 20 miles to Dracut MA but I was so over whelmed with the ride I took a parallel road to My town but 45 - 50 MPH speed vs 30 MPH straight to my place. Needless to say the Battery meter went to zero at 19.2 miles. I guess average for a first real ride. I loaded bike on SUV and got it home then plugged it in and in 3 hours charged to 17 bars. Then shut off then back on with over temp code. after 5 hours it shut off again. Rode it lightly Tuesday then Wednesday gave it a good long ride to Interstate Battery to show off new bike and get KOH. I needed to take longer trip since meter kept going up for mileage vs first trip. Regen really makes mileage go up. On the third trip charging was CP152, CC152, then CO153? Oops not in the book. Now I know it I ride to 9 bars I have an easy 28 to 29 miles. What was nice riding up to Tyngsborough Interstate Battery I rode along side of a FLH full dresser giving a quick acceleration then I would then the Harley would. A slight waste of electrons but it still came out to 52 miles total. I sure hope some one keeps the VX-1 alive. The Amp meter starts out at 11 amp and drops to 9 amps then shuts off in 3 hours which seems to match 30 AH battery pack. 11+10+9=30 The bike handled so good on Perimeter road in Manchester Airport leaning into curves perfectly. It is going to be hard getting back on my XM-3000 after I get parts for it. I know I will need NOTHING on this VX-1 for everything seem to be over engineered on it. 100 plus miles on the VX-1 and many more to come.
Rusty

KB1UKU

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